04-30-2015 02:54 PM
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  1. Narathan's Avatar
    They headed in the right direction. They didn't copy anyone. But we, in the wrong direction, losing the uniqueness.
    I'm going to intervene here for a moment.

    It kind of upsets me when people say that the Windows UI becomes more similar to Android/iOS, while the "flat design" of both was inspired from Windows Phone 7/8. Google/Bing "Android ICS" or "iOS 6" and you'll see what I mean. If you look for Windows Phone 7 thru 10, you don't see *that* much of a drastic change. Google introduced KitKat and changed their UI to a more simplified design that was clearly inspired by Windows Phone 7 and made it their own with "Cards". iOS played catch-up with Google Android because it suddenly looked stale and old. Then Google responded with Material Design to muscle up against iOS again.

    Sure, Microsoft had some catching up to do as well in order to stay in business, but that makes sense. Essential pieces had to be implemented, like a notification center because people wanted it. They play(ed) catch-up as wel, but they didn't really loose their design language. And I'm not sure if thats positive. A lot of people were (and still are) frustrated with the lack of say, a wallpaper behind the live tiles. Or the ability for third party keyboards. Or Equalizers for their music. Not to mention decent third party apps because 8.0 was locked down so tightly, you couldn't really develop anything worthwhile. I'm glad they opened up since 8.1.

    And iOS didn't retain their design language as good as you might think. That notification center wasn't there at first with the button shortcuts, Android was first. Widgets? Taken from Android. Third party keyboards and Swype? Oh my. Android inspired again. If one company made a drastic change, it was Apple with their iOS, not Microsoft. Windows 10 looks to be clean and I welcome it, since 8.1.1 was beginning to feel stale and its UI doesn't work across several devices.

    And don't mistake this for a personal attack, it just worries me to see how so many people are waving their pitchforks around lately saying that WP is loosing its uniqueness.

    We're STILL the only OS with Live Tiles and we're the FIRST OS to have the same system across several devices! You can argue that Android can do that as well, however that only goes for tablets and phones.

    If that isn't unique on its own, I'm not sure people know what they are talking about.

    And sorry for the long rant fellas. I know its great to be a critic (and complain about stuff), but I sometimes feel that a lot of you are rusted into a particular pattern where every change, be it good or bad, is unaccepted and being rejected.
    01-31-2015 05:25 AM
  2. psiu_glen's Avatar
    *snip*

    And don't mistake this for a personal attack, it just worries me to see how so many people are waving their pitchforks around lately saying that WP is loosing its uniqueness.

    We're STILL the only OS with Live Tiles and we're the FIRST OS to have the same system across several devices! You can argue that Android can do that as well, however that only goes for tablets and phones.

    If that isn't unique on its own, I'm not sure people know what they are talking about.

    And sorry for the long rant fellas. I know its great to be a critic (and complain about stuff), but I sometimes feel that a lot of you are rusted into a particular pattern where every change, be it good or bad, is unaccepted and being rejected.
    Don't dismiss the complaints out of hand. I do see what you're saying, like having the same OS spanning from phone to PC. Of course, when MS forces something, it usually results in complaints (you'd think they would learn to just provide options at some levels).

    Regarding WP -- I remember seeing the first WP7 previews. I was running my OG Droid at the time, trying out ROMs, and kernels, and managing the thing way more than I really wanted to. I also have a long appreciation of graphic design and typography. UI and UX design fascinates me. WP looked like the answer to a lot of my dreams. Right down to the little touches, done with purpose, like hiding most of status symbols unless needed. And bringing them right to left...and flying back out left to right. The Hubs. Everything about it appealed to me -- got a Trophy shortly after Verizon offered it and been hooked since.

    Haven't looked a ton at 10 yet (you know, since the phone version isn't even out yet), but even 8.1 started falling away. The thing I've loved is how intuitive, easy (swipes, for example) and basically "get put of the way" the OS has been.

    Seems like since the launch have seen a lot of the people responsible for it and involved departing MS. And the ones left are software engineers trying to do graphic design or UX.

    A phone is not a tablet is not a hybrid is not a laptop is not a desktop. They can have similar interfaces. Same core OS. But the exact same interface? It's Windows Mobile 10.0! And not in a good way...

    (Univeral app/develop once is such horsecrap. Different devices should have some tailoring done to to suit them. It makes me think of the idea behind WebOS. A lot of the modern websites adjust themselves depending on how they are being viewed. Seems like apps could be templated the same way.)
    a5cent and white_Shadoww like this.
    01-31-2015 07:00 AM
  3. Visa Declined's Avatar
    You changed a bunch of stuff in this post, so lets try this again.


    The way it was originally suppose to work, Google would continue to update AOSP, then anyone could fork that and make their own version of Android OS or use Google's version. The idea is that its all mostly equal. Over the past few years, Google has been deprecating APIs and slowly abandoning AOSP in favor of their own proprietary GMS.
    Depreciating API's was a necessity, Google had to radically changed the way Android works. Google Play Services now handles all the API stuff, and it enables older versions of Android to get important updates and features...without having to worry about carriers slacking off on OS updates. This is really important, they needed to figure out a way around the carriers, so they pushed out all of their core apps to the store, and Google Play Services ties it all together, it makes older versions of Android function like a modern one.



    This has made it increasingly harder for people like Amazon or CM to compete
    I don't think Google is too concerned with this.


    Google has also tried this (albeit with rather limited success) with Android One, where they offer pure, skinless Android. Not related to AO, but just look at how pure Androidish Samsung has become. It use to be overly skinned and touchwized to hell, but Google has been locking things down. It sorta makes sense why they would want to, but that's beside the point.
    I'm not sure what relevance this has to the conversation, Samsung isn't "toning down" TouchWiz because of Google locking things down. Google actually made an agreement with them, and asked them to knock it off. During some meetings that happened around the same time, Samsung and Google agreed to cross license some patents, so it's hard to say exactly what happened.

    CM (and clearly many others including Microsoft) have noted this. CM is currently on 5% of Android devices and growing quickly. Their plan is to take that power away from Google and make it open.
    AOSP already is open, Android running Google apps is not. There's nothing Cyanogen, or anyone else can do to make Google change what they're doing. If Cyanogen thinks they can build a more popular version of Android, without any Google apps, then I worry for their sanity.
    01-31-2015 07:04 AM
  4. TLRtheory's Avatar
    All we've seen of the UI so far is that they've cleaned up the chaotic settings menu and that our start screen background is no longer that weird transparency tile crap we've been doing since 8.1... unless you're one of the maniacs looking at individual apps like mail and trying to judge the OS overall by that.

    That's not similar to Android at all... in fact, Android's new push to a flatter design would be more of an indication that Android's trying to mimic Windows' modern look. Windows 10 for phones is trying to look like none other than Windows 10 for the desktop.
    01-31-2015 07:33 AM
  5. Amit Mishra3's Avatar
    Where did you get to see windows 10 UI? I searched youtube but couldn't find any video of wp10.
    01-31-2015 07:48 AM
  6. TheCudder's Avatar
    From a usability standpoint...CALM DOWN and wait until the preview for phones is actually released and you use it. I use both GMail and MyMail apps on my HTC One, they both use the hidden "hamburger style" menu and I love it. I never have to tap the menu icon, as it can be swiped in from the left edge of the screen. No pivoting endlessly through headers... something I always thought Android caught flack for with its endless swiping through pages of apps.
    01-31-2015 07:57 AM
  7. psiu_glen's Avatar
    From a usability standpoint...CALM DOWN and wait until the preview for phones is actually released and you use it. I use both GMail and MyMail apps on my HTC One, they both use the hidden "hamburger style" menu and I love it. I never have to tap the menu icon, as it can be swiped in from the left edge of the screen. No pivoting endlessly through headers... something I always thought Android caught flack for with its endless swiping through pages of apps.
    You mean like how the bottom (ellipse) menu bar is swipable from anywhere on the bottom?

    Also, when the preview is released and is plain terrible, you know what will be said?

    "This is the PREVIEW. Wait for the release, you can't complain about beta/preview software -- they will change it for final release."

    Same things were said for 8.1 -- complain about the dialer being neutered to be a out as useful as my wife's flip phone? "derr derr you musta not installed it right you not a l33t coder like me, just wait"
    01-31-2015 08:23 AM
  8. tiziano27's Avatar
    AOSP already is open, Android running Google apps is not. There's nothing Cyanogen, or anyone else can do to make Google change what they're doing. If Cyanogen thinks they can build a more popular version of Android, without any Google apps, then I worry for their sanity.
    Cyanogen needs services like Search, Location, Google Now, Drive and Hangouts. Core apps like Mail, Maps and Calendar. It seems Microsoft will provide those services and apps. Although, the most important asset is an App Store. The only good alternative for western markets is Amazon Appstore. I guess Cyanogen will make a deal with them.

    So, they can build a decent alternative to Google's Android, but what's the advantage of the product? I can only think in price, if Microsoft, Amazon and other companies interested in shipping their apps and services on Cyanogen share part of their revenue with OEMs, they could subsidize the phones. In the long run, if Cyanogen and other forks capture a significant market share, Google will have to support them.

    According to ABI research, 30% of the Android phones shipped in Q4 are running AOSP, but I think most of them are sold in China and Russia.
    Amazon, Cyanogen and others have to expand this trend to the western markets.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/4q-201...145600978.html
    01-31-2015 08:55 AM
  9. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    No one has actually seen the W10 for phone UI yet...

    <snip/>
    I'd like to stop you there. Windows 10 for phones was shown off in the presentation running on live phones.
    luisfarelo and xandros9 like this.
    01-31-2015 08:56 AM
  10. portalfocus's Avatar
    The Nokia X was a project conceived by Nokia, not Microsoft. Microsoft ended the Nokia X line not long after Microsoft officially acquired Nokia's mobile division.

    Have you guys noticed that iOS apps & Andorid apps are already similar? There's no need for Microsoft to have a completely different app UI style when they are a distant third. I think their reason for changing their app designs are to:

    1) Make it easier for dev's to port their existing apps over to W10.
    2) The new UI language is more desktop friendly than pivots, excessive spacing and oversized letters --- the lack of use of Windows 8 apps proves that. The new direction will persuade more desktop users to want use the apps. Something we all no wasn't the case with Windows 8.

    I honestly think that die-hard WP users are the only one's in love with the old WP app style. iOS & Android users aren't choosing their ecosystem because of how the apps looks. It's phone features, availability of apps and the functionality of those apps --- areas that WP lacks. More advanced users may tend to like the customization capabilities of Android.
    This.
    xandros9 likes this.
    01-31-2015 08:58 AM
  11. portalfocus's Avatar
    Windows 10 Mobile isn't going to be an Android like device. It doesn't look like it and it doesn't operate like it.

    The Hamburger buttons/menu is an Android thing?

    So sick of hearing this and have no idea what this actually means.

    The button with three lines rather than three dots??

    Anybody with Cortana on their phone, open it up and look around. There's a hamburger button there and it's been there from the start as far as I remember. And now people are complaining that there's a hamburger button in Cortana on Windows 10? It's nothing new and not anything Microsoft threw out as a surprise to anybody paying attention.

    The concept apps and UI for Windows 10 Mobile are the same as they always were in 7.5/7.8/8/8.1 but with some updated features.... Updated features people in the community have been asking for for a long time.

    Now they added those things in and suddenly they're still doing something wrong and people still find something to complain about.

    The hamburger buttons, the hamburger menus, the icons, the start menu, the start screen, the lack of transparency effects, the new settings menu.... People complained about Windows 8/8.1 (I didn't) and then complain that Windows 10 isn't like Windows 8/8.1
    As Michael Fisher said in the last podcast, is the Windows "fans" that are killing the popularity of the platform, no the App gap.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 09:12 AM
  12. Sagar Limaye's Avatar
    As Michael Fisher said in the last podcast, is the Windows "fans" that are killing the popularity of the platform, no the App gap.
    Well excuse us for trying to maintain the uniqueness of the platform.
    psiu_glen likes this.
    01-31-2015 09:15 AM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    The Nokia X was a project conceived by Nokia, not Microsoft. Microsoft ended the Nokia X line not long after Microsoft officially acquired Nokia's mobile division.
    Do we know this for sure? I see this posted here all the time but as far as I know there is no concrete evidence. Didn't Nokia and Microsoft have some kind of exclusivity agreement? And wouldn't this have prevented Nokia from manufacturing Android devices without Microsoft's approval?

    This sounds radical, but I wonder if Microsoft wasn't behind the whole Nokia X deal. It might have been an experiment, and Microsoft could do it via Nokia and save face. If it had been a success, would we have seen the headlines, "Nokia X Gamble Inspired By Microsoft Paid Off"?

    It's not like Microsoft doesn't dabble with Android. They just announced investing in Cyanogen. I'm sure they're not doing it simply as a place to invest their cash.
    01-31-2015 09:19 AM
  14. psiu_glen's Avatar
    I honestly think that die-hard WP users are the only one's in love with the old WP app style. iOS & Android users aren't choosing their ecosystem because of how the apps looks. It's phone features, availability of apps and the functionality of those apps --- areas that WP lacks. More advanced users may tend to like the customization capabilities of Android.
    So...you're saying the die-hard WP users went with an obscure platform because of the look and feel, giving up features, apps, and depth within those apps?

    And other people choose their platforms based on the features and apps?

    So the "fix" is to mess around with the look and feel, maybe add some features. Which will *surely* get those entrenched users coming over. Do I have that right?
    01-31-2015 09:51 AM
  15. Jazmac's Avatar
    Fill in all the holes in the store, make a mobile Spartan browser that's beautiful=everybody hates IE, build hardware that's even more unique, make it so the OS can be tweaked and changed=let handset makers personalize it, start selling devices cheaper...these things would help.

    ...
    Is that all they have to do? What were we all thinking?
    01-31-2015 10:47 AM
  16. anon(5383410)'s Avatar
    1. the ui looks nowhere near as similar to android as you claim. look no further than the start screen
    2. you're attempting to make an assessment about the functionality of something you saw a few pictures of
    3. you're taking the cyanogen investment and rrrrrreaching to try to connect the dots
    Jazmac and portalfocus like this.
    01-31-2015 11:46 AM
  17. portalfocus's Avatar
    Well excuse us for trying to maintain the uniqueness of the platform.
    I really do understand your worries but just wait until we get W10 on our phones and try it out. and then We can give them feedback based on Experience, not images. That's why they are listening their costumers based on their experience, not concepts
    01-31-2015 12:08 PM
  18. Jas00555's Avatar
    Let me start off again with the original quote:



    The "code" that Google leaves out of AOSP is stuff like Play Services, the store, Chrome, etc. This is Google's stuff, and would never be included in AOSP to begin with. When you said "Google would have to move more code into AOSP".. exactly which "code" are you talking about? The Google apps and the back end that runs them is not part of AOSP.

    There is a group called the Open Handset Alliance, it is comprised of 84 different technology companies, and it works together in unison to manage and improve AOSP. Members of the group can use Google's proprietary "stuff" on their phones, but if they do, they have to pretty much use all of it. Not only that, but Google's apps have to have prominent placement on the home screen(s) of the device.

    Here's a snippet of what Google requires:





    These are the things that people rebel against, they can't simply use one or two Google apps, and they MUST place everything exactly where Google wants them.

    Nobody is expecting them to "add their stuff" to AOSP, which is what I'm assuming what you are talking about. Handset makers can take AOSP and do whatever they want with it without Google apps(except dual boot with Windows) or they can play by Google's rules and include the crown jewels.

    *edit
    Maybe AOSP WOULD be allowed to dual boot with Windows, but the Google version of Android has been barred from doing so in the past.
    While Google services such as Gmail, Search, etc... are *part* of what google puts into the proprietary part of it, there is a lot more, and arguably some of that stuff could've been included in AOSP, but Google didn't do it..... which almost defeats the entire purpose of AOSP existing in the first place.

    For a more in depth thing of what I'm talking about, I'll refer you to ArsTechnica, who did a great write up of the situation.

    Google?s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary | Ars Technica

    Edit: Now that I read your post again, I think I see what the original confusion was. I was trying to say that since AOSP is running on almost half of the devices (according to Twit, I haven't seen any recent statistics), of Google keeps pushing GMS and ignoring AOSP, it'll leave AOSP with deprecated APIs. If AOSP continues to steamroll over GMS, developers would code for AOSP and not include any of the "good" APIs. That would leave Android with subpar apps and developers frustrated.
    01-31-2015 01:33 PM
  19. Jas00555's Avatar
    You changed a bunch of stuff in this post, so lets try this again.




    Wait, what? I added literally one word an entire 10 minutes before you even submitted your answer. Lol I think you skipped over a bunch of what I said the first time.
    01-31-2015 02:04 PM
  20. anon(3463402)'s Avatar
    Where have you seen that Windows 10 is (so) similar to Android?

    It's NOT.
    01-31-2015 02:22 PM
  21. Bojan Malinovic's Avatar
    The UI is strikingly similar to Android, so similar that the first thing I thought of when i saw the UI was that Windows 10 has to be a transitionary placeholder before Microsoft makes the full move to their own flavor of android. Not just the hamburger menu, but everything functions like android would.... What would be the point of making an OS when it looks and functions like another major OS? wheres the "windows selling points" of Hubs and Live tiles and what not? hubs dont exist anymore, live tiles arent saving the OS and can be replicated in an android fork (plus apps like the music app no longer has a live tile that it did before), major apps are jumping ship and other major apps are left in indefinate beta (instagram)...theres no difference in UI between android and windows other than the homescreen now, and the homescreen can be replicated in android if microsoft wanted to make their own fork....Also, at the Windows 10 event, they barely touched on the phone interface and features, as if its not a priority.

    Nokia X was the beginning experiments to see public sentiment. The recent investment in CyanogenMod makes me think this even more. Microsoft cares about selling services now more than selling "OSs" or even devices.

    Another thing i thought of is that Microsoft can do what they did with the xbox, they can run 3 operating systems on each phone/device... Windows for the services, Android for the apps, and a hypervisor to connect both... it can be seemless and the user would never notice, especially since the UIs are melded together now. my point here is that there are ways microsoft can go about this.

    The main reason i think they can move to android is for the apps of course. with all these companies jumping ship, and microsoft continuing to invest all their resources in iOS and Android apps before windows apps, it would be interesting to see if this becomes right. microsoft wants to sell services, so it wouldnt matter if the phone runs iOS or android, as long as youre subscribed to office and music and everything else.
    I want some of what you are smoking...cos bigger pile of rubish havent seen for a while.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    01-31-2015 02:28 PM
  22. Geddeeee's Avatar
    I'd like to stop you there. Windows 10 for phones was shown off in the presentation running on live phones.
    As I said in my original post...

    "No one has actually seen the W10 for phone UI yet...
    A few blurry screenshots and a few Office 10 and OneDrive shots from the video presentation do not mean anything."

    So... NO... we haven't seen the UI yet... A few glimpses of what MIGHT be... But that is all!!!!

    Thanks for posting....
    portalfocus likes this.
    01-31-2015 04:43 PM
  23. btgusto's Avatar
    NO They are not moving to Android BUT if you all remember it was Microsoft who said they were going to build a better android. I dont remember who at MS said this but it looks like they are on their way
    01-31-2015 07:26 PM
  24. iice cage's Avatar
    No microsoft just improve windows phone design to make it modern.. Look at iphone 6 plus the builtIn apps are super modern thats why people around world are blinking their eyes towards iphone because it has super modern built in apps designs. Designing an apps start with the SDK controls.
    portalfocus likes this.
    01-31-2015 07:50 PM
  25. Soble's Avatar
    Yeah no more hubs no more live tiles.....I'm very sad :'( office is no more selling point all devices now have office...... What WP got is only Cortana
    01-31-2015 08:18 PM
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