The Windows 10 April 2018 update has arrived! Get the new Dell XPS 15, starting at $999.99
03-24-2015 08:14 PM
202 ... 23456 ...
tools
  1. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I don't know if he was targeting WM with that statement, but a stylus was necessary with WM devices, at least the ones I had. They barely worked without a stylus.
    In '07 the only touchscreens (phones) available were resistive so you were forced to use a stylus especially considering that a 3-1/2" display was very rare on phones. Except for BlackBerry, all touchscreen devices at that time used a stylus so I don't think it was a pot shot at WinMo. Maybe Symbian since Nokia was still the market share king.
    02-13-2015 09:43 PM
  2. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    And the lowercase headers are gone now. Those looked beautiful. Almost every aspect of WP is altered with something ugly in Windows 10.
    Sent from my Lumia 920!
    02-13-2015 09:51 PM
  3. a5cent's Avatar
    1) Pivoting brings an awkward experience on the Desktop and MSFT wants users to WANT to use WinRT apps on non-touch devices.
    Irrelevant. As already mentioned in post #70, there is no reason a pivot on a small screen can't be mapped to any other UI construct when running on a larger screen. That would represent just one of many UI mappings that we'll be dealing with either way.

    2) No way to implement the popular "swipe to delete/archive" type actions with pivoting.
    That there is "no way" is incorrect. Differentiating between edge-swipes and non edge-swipes would be one way. There are others. Still, I suspect you're right that this is part of the deal. Neither approach is perfect however. Both pivots and side panels/buttons have their own drawbacks. The solution would have been to add an alternative to pivots that fit in with the established design language, but cater towards that specific scenario. This scenario by itself just doesn't seem like a good enough reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    3) Easier porting of apps from Android and iOS with fewer UI design changes.
    Irrelevant, at least in terms of porting apps. The cost savings this achieves just aren't notable. This is a theoretical argument at best. Last but not least, the cost of porting an app has never been the primary road block to closing the app gap, which is why it's practically of little importance.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-14-2015 at 07:30 AM. Reason: spelling
    sahib lopez and iamFrix26 like this.
    02-13-2015 10:30 PM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    To say they're making winphone just like Android simply because of a button is ludicrous
    Yes it is. That's also not what anybody but the most superficial of critics are saying. It's completely besides the point.
    02-13-2015 10:36 PM
  5. tiziano27's Avatar
    'Albums' is the function of Photos app that I use daily. And it is inside hamburger. Don't blame Metro for the failure. It was lack of features and apps and not the Metro. Metro was well received, and as far as I remember no web site actually said Metro was failure. Metro was well received by major tech sites and many persons, and hated only by those Android and Apple fanboys whom will never buy WP whatever we do because they love their OS so much.
    According to Microsoft's telemetry of the WP7 app, 91% of the users only open the app to go to the camera roll.

    http://www.windowscentral.com/91-per...s-hub-redesign

    It make sense to move functions that aren't frequently used to the hamburger menu, and get more space for content and a cleaner UI.
    Probably in the mail app was the same.
    Although, that doesn't mean that tabs/pivots are disallowed.

    ...
    Metro was well received when It was presented 5 years ago, but things have changed since then.
    Metro was a extreme reaction to skeuomorphism, the dominant trend at that time, and the design that the iPhone adopted by heart.
    Material design and iOS7 are more balanced synthesis of the two approaches.

    'Nobody' likes Metro anymore.
    02-14-2015 04:22 AM
  6. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    I honestly don't care about design identity. If something isn't working, then change it. I don't mind the "hamburger" button. I think it's fine, and everyone knows what it is, so it's a good addition/change. What I don't like is the arrangement and layout of the elements on the screen, placing things out of reach because "That's how Android does it" is change for the sake of change, not improvement.



    Microsoft need to have a mix of what's recognisable and what's easy to use. PLUS, you have to keep in mind that even though millions of people are familiar with the way Android does it, many billions more are NOT. I feel like MS should be focusing on winning over new users by making the operating system easy and intuitive, not just aping how Android does it in an attempt to steal customers from Google. It's stuff like that which will push people straight into Apple's arms.



    I hope what I'm trying to get across makes sense.

    Nailed it.
    02-14-2015 04:50 AM
  7. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    To say they're making winphone just like Android simply because of a button is ludicrous
    It is not just based on one button. Everything that is currently splendidly easy to do WP8 feels clunky on W10.

    Another example - Spartan. Where is the address bar? Exactly where the hamburger is. On the top.

    IE11 no matter how feature deficient, is easy to use! Even with one hand. That address bar within a thumb reach was ease of use. Not to mention a very clean UI. With Spartan they needed more functions. NOT uneasy UI.

    As a few people have already said, a clunky use is Android not WP. Whatever small subset of features WP has, was extremely easy user experience. Surely making more functions that are a day to day headache to use won't make people to buy WP. They will buy Android because they get same features or more, way more apps, exactly same design language. Yes, Modern was so popular that Google made same but colourful one and called it Material.
    02-14-2015 04:59 AM
  8. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    According to Microsoft's telemetry of the WP7 app, 91% of the users only open the app to go to the camera roll.

    http://www.windowscentral.com/91-per...s-hub-redesign

    It make sense to move functions that aren't frequently used to the hamburger menu, and get more space for content and a cleaner UI.
    Probably in the mail app was the same.
    Although, that doesn't mean that tabs/pivots are disallowed.

    ...
    Metro was well received when It was presented 5 years ago, but things have changed since then.
    Metro was a extreme reaction to skeuomorphism, the dominant trend at that time, and the design that the iPhone adopted by heart.
    Material design and iOS7 are more balanced synthesis of the two approaches.

    'Nobody' likes Metro anymore.

    Why put functions in hard to reach hamburger menu when you can easily reach them by flick of your thumb under ellipses?
    Mahdi Ghiasi likes this.
    02-14-2015 05:01 AM
  9. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    Why put functions in hard to reach hamburger menu when you can easily reach them by flick of your thumb under ellipses?

    Such a simple thing to understand, how Microsoft doesn't understand this? Maybe put hamburger in apps which have more menus like Office, but why media apps like Photos, Music, Videos. These apps can be made with Metro UI, both on phones and desktop. No really need for hamburger. But, I'm tired of saying this over and over here. I'll just use feedback now, when TP gets available for my 920.
    Mahdi Ghiasi and Kram Sacul like this.
    02-14-2015 05:40 AM
  10. tiziano27's Avatar
    Why put functions in hard to reach hamburger menu when you can easily reach them by flick of your thumb under ellipses?

    Hamburger and Ellipsis menus are sort of equivalent, both contain functions that aren't frequently used, two steps are needed to access them. Why are they choosing hamburger menus this time?

    Menus at the top are more intuitive for first time users and buyers, more familiar according to conventions, and more consistent with Universal apps in tablets and PCs. So, this could have a good impact in SALES. The prospective buyer has a couple of minutes to take the buying decision, there is no time to re-train the 'neural network', or to get into deductions about the benefits of the location of UI elements. You want the prospective buyer to feel at home and confident in the product.

    Ellipsis are better ergonomically, and more efficient for daily use once the user has learned the UI, but at least to me, even after years using WP, I still feel a little awkwardness in the back of my mind.

    The key factor to incline the decision to hamburger is that the functions aren't frequently used, so the impact in ergonomics and efficiency is minimal, but the benefit of intuitiveness and familiarity is important.

    Although, the same app, Photos in Windows 10, has commands that appear at the bottom. For example when you select photos, the commands to delete or share are at the bottom. That's kind of inconsistent, but I suppose they think those functions are more frequently used and could take part in series of operations that can be completed with one thumb. So, they are interchanging consistency for ergonomics and efficiency.
    02-14-2015 05:43 AM
  11. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Such a simple thing to understand, how Microsoft doesn't understand this? Maybe put hamburger in apps which have more menus like Office, but why media apps like Photos, Music, Videos. These apps can be made with Metro UI, both on phones and desktop. No really need for hamburger. But, I'm tired of saying this over and over here. I'll just use feedback now, when TP gets available for my 920.


    Amusingly the apps like office have a WHOLE freaking ribbon hidden under ellipses! They can execute that well but not 4 options generally under a hamburger? eg Photos app has literally 4 options in hamburger vs Office has entire formatting ribbon under ellipses.
    02-14-2015 05:48 AM
  12. bhavya26's Avatar
    The solution to this is report it to Microsoft via feedback app
    Narathan likes this.
    02-14-2015 05:51 AM
  13. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    Amusingly the apps like office have a WHOLE freaking ribbon hidden under ellipses! They can execute that well but not 4 options generally under a hamburger? eg Photos app has literally 4 options in hamburger vs Office has entire formatting ribbon under ellipses.


    I think developers are designing the UI and not proper designers. Maybe those 18000 guys Microsoft fired, they fired all designers and now after running out of designers, developers took over and are designing the UI. Lol, just joking, but I think these new designers aren't really that skilled and are obsessed with Android, that's why the influence of Material UI in apps like Calculator.
    luisfarelo likes this.
    02-14-2015 05:53 AM
  14. amitnahar's Avatar
    Now I just hope they don't position keyboard at the same place as of hamburgers or address bar of Spartan. That would be cool. :P
    02-14-2015 05:59 AM
  15. skinnypig118's Avatar
    On a tablet, we will often have navigational controls that are always visible on the left or right side of the screen. On a smartphone, those navigational controls will be hidden in a side menu. That is an example of one such mapping. In Touch Office for tablets, most commands are displayed in a ribbon along the top of the screen. On a phone, those commands will apparently be hidden in the bottom app bar which needs to be opened to access them. That's another such mapping. My point is that MS is already fully aware that these "experiences" can't be identical. That's why such mappings already exist. That's why the notion that either WP had to lose the pivot control, or the pivot control had to be introduced to larger screens, is also incorrect. This requires just another mapping. I can think of a few ways a pivot control might be mapped to a larger screen. No big deal...
    ^ This is the key to fixing the mess that is the current wp10 UI.

    Having a usable UI for both phone/tablet and desktop does not mean we need to sacrifice consistency between devices. People forget that even Windows 10 itself on a "PC" has 2 modes, a desktop mode where most interactions are done through the keyboard and mouse, and a tablet mode where all interactions are done through touch. When you switch between modes UI elements will change to better suit your mode of interaction, we've seen that already, e.g. the start menu grows to full screen, the spacing between icons in the taskbar widens. They even have a name for this transition, it's called Continuum.

    So why shouldn't a hamburger menu turn into pivot controls when you undock your keyboard and mouse? I think it absolutely should! That tablet side of the Windows 10 experience is exactly what the phone UI should be consistent with, instead of striving for consistency with all of Windows 10 and having the desktop elements bleed through.
    02-14-2015 06:04 AM
  16. RoyalX's Avatar
    I did not know it was called hamburger.
    I just called it a menu button. Just like the 3 dots on WP8 on the bottom right.
    Or the rubik's cube on Google page.

    I don't like it either but you cannot avoid the hamburger menu.
    Cause it is on a lot of websites. Especially mobile websites.
    So MS is goint towards the next day.

    But still I think they are going more and more towards Android.
    Look at the new System/Settings menu.

    I see that W10 uses both the hamburger and the 3 dots on the bottom.
    02-14-2015 06:09 AM
  17. nur ahlullah's Avatar
    I hate the humburger button, wp slow but sure lost its identity
    luisfarelo likes this.
    02-14-2015 06:11 AM
  18. tiziano27's Avatar
    Having a usable UI for both phone/tablet and desktop does not mean we need to sacrifice consistency between devices. People forget that even Windows 10 itself on a "PC" has 2 modes, a desktop mode where most interactions are done through the keyboard and mouse, and a tablet mode where all interactions are done through touch. When you switch between modes UI elements will change to better suit your mode of interaction, we've seen that already, e.g. the start menu grows to full screen, the spacing between icons in the taskbar widens. They even have a name for this transition, it's called Continuum.

    So why shouldn't a hamburger menu turn into pivot controls when you undock your keyboard and mouse? I think it absolutely should! That tablet side of the Windows 10 experience is exactly what the phone UI should be consistent with, instead of striving for consistency with all of Windows 10 and having the desktop elements bleed through.
    In the case of the Photos app, It doesn't make sense to put that functions in tabs because they aren't frequently used. Tabs take space from content and add complexity to the UI.

    In other cases tabs make sense. I don't know why some people is getting the conclusion that tabs are forbidden in Windows 10.
    02-14-2015 06:22 AM
  19. Narathan's Avatar
    The solution to this is report it to Microsoft via feedback app
    Seconded. Having a healthy discussion is a good way to share your opinions and ideas, but it doesn't help change the problem.

    But then again, I suspect you already done that.

    Although I have say, the way you have to swipe up from the bottom of the screen is a problem IF you have onscreen buttons, like the M8. More often then not when I swipe up, the buttons minimize. Now I know I can disable this ability but I shouldn't. I agree the current position of the Hamburger button makes little sense when it comes to UI/UX, but keeping the current implementation will cause problems as well for people that have fat fingers or miss that dexterity.

    So, why not think out of the box here for a moment and turn the Windows button in a menu button when you longpress it? Press the Windows button (and maybe swipe up) to reveal a settings menu specific for the app. Or long press it (0.5-1 second). They did it with the Search button, so why not? The Windows button is pretty useless at the moment.

    Makes a lot more sense then all other options considered. Windows logo on Windows 10 opens up a menu with settings et al. So why not?

    Go along and turn the second action on the Search button to make it reveal the Action Center. Great on larger devices.

    https://windowsphone.uservoice.com/f...on-with-a-long

    I posted this idea here, maybe it serves some use
    02-14-2015 06:37 AM
  20. tiziano27's Avatar
    So, why not think out of the box here for a moment and turn the Windows button in a menu button when you longpress it? Press the Windows button (and maybe swipe up) to reveal a settings menu specific for the app. Or long press it (0.5-1 second). They did it with the Search button, so why not? The Windows button is pretty useless at the moment.

    Please don't take it personal, but the poor guy at Microsoft that has to search for meaningful or well reasoned feedback in a mountain of nonsense, has worst job in the world.

    Telemetry is definitely the primary objective of the previews.
    02-14-2015 06:48 AM
  21. skinnypig118's Avatar
    In the case of the Photos app, It doesn't make sense to put that functions in tabs because they aren't frequently used. Tabs take space from content and add complexity to the UI.

    In other cases tabs make sense. I don't know why some people is getting the conclusion that tabs are forbidden in Windows 10.
    Of course, I'm not suggesting to blindly turn hamburgers into pivots, careful thought and design (the kind that gave us the original MetroUI) will be needed to determine what things should go where.

    But in general, I would think that categories that users would flip through belongs in a hamburger (when in desktop) and pivot (when in phone/tablet), and less frequently used items, such as settings and about, belongs in the ellipses menu.
    02-14-2015 06:49 AM
  22. tiziano27's Avatar
    Of course, I'm not suggesting to blindly turn hamburgers into pivots, careful thought and design (the kind that gave us the original MetroUI) will be needed to determine what things should go where.

    But in general, I would think that categories that users would flip through belongs in a hamburger (when in desktop) and pivot (when in phone/tablet), and less frequently used items, such as settings and about, belongs in the ellipses menu.

    Metro was awful. For example, in the Photos app they first used a Hub, then they switched to tabs/pivots. Finally after 4 years they understood that functions that aren't frequently used shouldn't dominate the UI.

    Again, hamburger and ellipses are equivalent. There are good reasons to choose Hamburger over Ellipses, and the impact is efficiency is insignificant, because the functions in the hamburger menu shouldn't be used often.
    02-14-2015 07:01 AM
  23. skinnypig118's Avatar
    Metro was awful. For example, in the Photos app they first used a Hub, then they switched to tabs/pivots. Finally after 4 years they understood that functions that aren't frequently used shouldn't dominate the UI.

    Again, hamburger and ellipses are equivalent. There are good reasons to choose Hamburger over Ellipses, and the impact is efficiency is insignificant, because the functions in the hamburger menu shouldn't be used often.
    You are entitled to your opinion, however I think many would disagree that Metro was awful. It may not be that refined in its first iteration, but by wp8.1 it was pretty good. It's functional, useable, and aesthetically unique.

    And don't get hung up on the hamburger/pivot example, that is just one possible way to map the hamburger menu to a more useable form for the phone. All I'm trying to illustrate is that a consistent experience across devices doesn't mean they have to use identical controls.
    02-14-2015 07:25 AM
  24. TheCudder's Avatar
    So, why not think out of the box here for a moment and turn the Windows button in a menu button when you longpress it? Press the Windows button (and maybe swipe up) to reveal a settings menu specific for the app. Or long press it (0.5-1 second). They did it with the Search button, so why not? The Windows button is pretty useless at the moment.

    Makes a lot more sense then all other options considered. Windows logo on Windows 10 opens up a menu with settings et al. So why not?
    The Windows button does what it had always done, presents the start screen/menu ---- that's the purpose it's meant to serve.

    Microsoft is clearly trying to move away from all of the "hidden" and "guess" navigation involved with Windows 8. That was the main issue with why users hated it, There were no hints or obvious visual indicators presented to navigate the OS.

    I say leave the hamburger menu icon as is, BUT they should allow it to right be docked to the bottom or activated with an intuitive gesture based action (ie. Edge swipe in).
    02-14-2015 07:42 AM
  25. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    Metro was awful. For example, in the Photos app they first used a Hub, then they switched to tabs/pivots. Finally after 4 years they understood that functions that aren't frequently used shouldn't dominate the UI.



    Again, hamburger and ellipses are equivalent. There are good reasons to choose Hamburger over Ellipses, and the impact is efficiency is insignificant, because the functions in the hamburger menu shouldn't be used often.

    May I ask you something? Why did you choose a Windows Phone in the first place if you hated pretty much everything about it?
    luisfarelo and Kram Sacul like this.
    02-14-2015 07:45 AM
202 ... 23456 ...

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-13-2015, 12:16 PM
  2. L925 updated, but it was not Denim. What was it?
    By RistoH in forum Windows Phone 8.1
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-13-2015, 11:51 AM
  3. Does 1020 have bluetooth and a spotify app?
    By 7055 in forum Nokia Lumia 1020
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-13-2015, 06:10 AM
  4. Battery Performance after w10p TP installed!
    By geoghotas in forum Windows 10 Mobile Insider Preview
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-13-2015, 01:07 AM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD