03-24-2015 08:14 PM
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  1. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Sounds like you are saying WP and webOS are failures because of the design. I would propose that Android and iOS are popular because of the app and games on offer. Apple phones became popular because of the design AND the availability of iTunes, Apps and games.
    No, not at all. Metro and webOS were very good designs but people didn't adopt them and their sales suffered. That's not an opinion, that's what happened. Was it lack of marketing, lack of popular apps, crappy hardware (webOS) or a combination? more than likely. But UI was definitely not the problem. You're seeing the same with BB OS10, excellent design but garbage sales (compared to the market leaders).
    02-14-2015 01:43 PM
  2. 2tomtom's Avatar

    If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating..
    The UI changes seen from a user point of view, mainly the hamburger menu is not liked. The best explanation I've seen is the link below, from an Apple viewpoint.

    Apple on Hamburger Menus

    I hope the ease of use from swipe/pivots is not replaced with bizarrely placed hamburger menus that can not be reached.
    bschiav likes this.
    02-14-2015 02:03 PM
  3. 2tomtom's Avatar
    You're seeing the same with BB OS10, excellent design but garbage sales (compared to the market leaders).
    Interesting story on Blackberry below.

    BBC News - Make coders develop Blackberry apps, says firm's boss

    Is it the apps/ecosystem, or lack of, that equates to garbage sales?
    02-14-2015 02:20 PM
  4. manicottiK's Avatar
    The UI changes seen from a user point of view, mainly the hamburger menu is not liked.
    Interestingly, I think that everyday users are in favor of hamburgers because they know them and that UX-trained folks oppose them because studies show that hamburgers are bad for users.

    Any of us who do development or apps, websites, or even signage see this kind of thing all the time. People often ask for the exact opposite of what they need, not because of some latent masochism but because they don't understand or accept the difference between intuitive and familiar. Microsoft's challenge is make something that looks familiar so that people will take a look at W10 and stop complaining about changes WHILE also making the OS and the apps that folks develop easy to shift into a "productive" mode.

    I'm just started thinking about how one of my apps might change in W10. At least superficially, as relates to where some navigation buttons might appear, I'm considering adding a setting that lets users switch between "familiar" and "productive" modes.
    Legoboyii likes this.
    02-14-2015 02:25 PM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    The UI changes seen from a user point of view, mainly the hamburger menu is not liked. The best explanation I've seen is the link below, from an Apple viewpoint.

    Apple on Hamburger Menus
    I don't follow.

    Me: Cross-platform single source development is potentially a much better reason (than porting costs) for MS moving WP's UI away from Metro and towards a more traditional approach.
    You: This link explains why the hamburger button is not liked.

    I completely agree with that article you linked to. I just don't see the connection to what you quoted. Did you maybe quote the wrong part?
    02-14-2015 02:36 PM
  6. 2tomtom's Avatar
    I don't follow.

    Me: Cross-platform single source development is potentially a much better reason (than porting costs) for MS moving WP's UI away from Metro and towards a more traditional approach.
    You: This link explains why the hamburger button is not liked.

    I completely agree with that article you linked to. I just don't see the connection to what you quoted. Did you maybe quote the wrong part?
    Should have been;

    "If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating."

    I was replying from the topic "Is W10P entering a pure features battle and losing its distinct design identity?" point of view and the quoted comment together. You very interestingly, and I would think correctly, nailed the reason for the changes, from a Microsoft point of view. I was attempting to give a users point of view, especially to the hamburger menu.

    Although the changes in W10 may prove to gain more apps, it does result in a loss of distinct design quality. The pivot/swipe/metro design may be compromised or disappear to placate the functional.
    Last edited by 2tomtom; 02-14-2015 at 03:16 PM.
    02-14-2015 02:55 PM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    I was replying from the topic "Is W10P entering a pure features battle and losing its distinct design identity?" point of view and the quoted comment together. You very interestingly, and I would think correctly, nailed the reason for the changes, from a Microsoft point of view. I was attempting to give a users point of view, especially to the hamburger menu.

    Although the changes in W10 may prove to gain more apps, it does result in a loss of distinct design quality. The pivot/swipe/metro design may be compromised or disappear to placate the functional.
    Okay, I understand now. You're pointing out that some of Microsoft's UI interests and those of users (or at least some users) are mutually exclusive. If I'm speculating correctly, and I have no idea if I am, then yes, I'd agree. Good point.
    Jonnie LasVegas likes this.
    02-14-2015 04:15 PM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Interesting story on Blackberry below.

    BBC News - Make coders develop Blackberry apps, says firm's boss

    Is it the apps/ecosystem, or lack of, that equates to garbage sales?
    We already covered that here:

    http://forums.windowscentral.com/gen...tm#post2988286
    02-14-2015 04:51 PM
  9. Sagar Limaye's Avatar
    There is an entirely different angle which might make more sense. We've heard about MS potentially attempting to provide a way for developers to develop an app but once, with the ability for that single app to run unmodified on all three platforms. That is not called porting, nor would that directly affect any of the Android apps that already exist, but having a very similar UI is probably the only way to get that to work effectively. If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating.
    You're absolutely right. But, what I and most people hate about the universal app theory is that it's causing the phone to get a UI which is more suitable for use on a PC. Perhaps, if MS could keep those apps universal but not change the phone UI, everyone would be happy.
    02-14-2015 10:25 PM
  10. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    You're absolutely right. But, what I and most people hate about the universal app theory is that it's causing the phone to get a UI which is more suitable for use on a PC. Perhaps, if MS could keep those apps universal but not change the phone UI, everyone would be happy.

    Is there a uservoice for this yet?
    02-14-2015 11:07 PM
  11. Sagar Limaye's Avatar
    Is there a uservoice for this yet?
    On the WP uservoice, there are a few suggestions such as "Stick to modern, don't copy android" with considerable votes, so I'm guessing it's got Microsoft's attention.
    02-15-2015 01:12 AM
  12. bschiav's Avatar
    I don't think UX consistency equals an identical UX across all devices...we simply do not use a phone, a PC, and a tablet in the exact same way and with the exact same ergonomics. It just flat out doesn't happen...

    We see Microsoft acknowledging this now in Windows 10 with the Desktop and Tablet toggle.

    Poor use of pivots in certain apps...regardless of which UI elements you choose to set, you will always have app developers that utilize them poorly. That's on the developer to be more intelligent about how they lay out applications. Everything new about the design language will also be butchered by certain applications...
    02-15-2015 11:13 AM
  13. bschiav's Avatar
    All I'm trying to illustrate is that a consistent experience across devices doesn't mean they have to use identical controls.
    I agree!
    a5cent likes this.
    02-15-2015 11:15 AM
  14. mobilejk's Avatar
    This is like Windows 8 redeux.

    Think about it they are forcing a UI down everyone's throat across every size screen which will end up making nobody happy.

    And I've actually been a strong customer for MS for years simply for the fact I don't trust Google and can't stand Apple. Looks like in a few years if MS keeps this up I may have to pick the best of 2 evils.
    02-15-2015 09:39 PM
  15. 2tomtom's Avatar
    Okay, I understand now. You're pointing out that some of Microsoft's UI interests and those of users (or at least some users) are mutually exclusive. If I'm speculating correctly, and I have no idea if I am, then yes, I'd agree. Good point.
    Yes, exactly my point.
    a5cent likes this.
    02-16-2015 10:36 AM
  16. Jeetin Bishnoi's Avatar
    WIN 10 will be there for 620?
    02-16-2015 10:44 AM
  17. tiziano27's Avatar
    I assume that with "it" you are also referring to how easy it is for developers to port apps. I place little faith in those claims.

    People not involved in the software industry tend to greatly overestimate the importance of how a UI looks in terms of how that impacts porting costs. Compared to the costs incurred by each OS having completely different libraries, frameworks, and (less importantly) using different programming languages, the impact of a more similar looking UI is limited. Consider that even with a similar UI, the instructions that draw those similar UI's to their screens are still completely different. What we're talking about here is solely conceptual similarity, not technical similarity. That's not nothing, but for something as simple as an app, conceptual similarity isn't that big of a deal either. How much of a difference do you expect that to make? How long do you think it would take for someone who made, say, Tapatalk for Android, to come up with the corresponding design for WP? I'd say most people on this website could do that rather quickly. That's the difference we're talking about. Not more.

    IMHO the view that this would make a substantial difference can only be maintained through ignorance.

    There is an entirely different angle which might make more sense. We've heard about MS potentially attempting to provide a way for developers to develop an app but once, with the ability for that single app to run unmodified on all three platforms. That is not called porting, nor would that directly affect any of the Android apps that already exist, but having a very similar UI is probably the only way to get that to work effectively. If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating.

    And one last thing. I work in the software industry and have over the last few months talked with multiple CTO's who's companies don't provide apps for WP. They don't all have the same reasons for not supporting WP, but none of them cited porting costs as a reason either.

    The "app economy" is highly unequal, like the real economy. According to stats from Vision Mobile, 85% of the app developers (interested in revenues) make less than $1000 of monthly revenue, and there are also many non-profit and non-comercial apps.
    So, in many cases a 10% or 20% of cost savings could make the difference to make viable a WP project, probably not for a big company, however, niche apps or small local apps are also important in the smartphone experience.

    Apps also vary widely in the complexity of the code vs. complexity of the UI. Some developers invest a lot of time and resources in the UI, a big part of that investment could be lost if a different UI is needed for WP.
    Designing an UI is as easy as writing code, anyone can do It, but most of us would do an awful job. I'm not a dev and I can write awful code that could make cry a good developer.

    As other guys said, a closer equivalence of the UI elements with Android could make possible automated tools that to generate the XAML code. Java and C# are quite similar, It's easy to automate the translation of code. The problem are the APIs, but maybe some adapters could be used to provide some of the Android APIs in C#.
    Of course It's impossible to generate a working app ready to use, but part of the work could be automated, and links to documentation could be inserted as reference for a manual translation, or to improve the automated code. The objective is to reduce the cost of development for small projects.

    There are other tools like Appcelerator, (I don't know if they're still around), which provide a common API to develop NATIVE apps in a neutral language, javascript in the case of Appcelerator. WP is always a problem, the lowest common denominator is too low if you add Metro weirdness to a common API.

    ...
    CTO told me this or that It's not a good argument. At the end economic decisions can be simplified to Net Present Value and Opportunity cost, or an alternative analytical framework with those elements.
    02-16-2015 10:08 PM
  18. MikeSo's Avatar
    I think it's less about resources and costs for apps than about keeping a specific look to associate themselves with the brand. The big apps want their apps to look largely the same across platforms, and if they couldn't do that on WP they'd rather not make an app at all. Whether it cost a little more to make it look the same was likely irrelevant.
    02-17-2015 09:39 AM
  19. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    I think it's less about resources and costs for apps than about keeping a specific look to associate themselves with the brand. The big apps want their apps to look largely the same across platforms, and if they couldn't do that on WP they'd rather not make an app at all. Whether it cost a little more to make it look the same was likely irrelevant.

    But they are free to make their app look however they want on WP. Metro guidelines are just guidelines not rules. If a developer put a hamburger in the app, it won't magically disappear when it is submitted to the store. However, if MS stuck to Metro for their first party apps, not right now, but maybe in future when WP marketshare increases, those companies will make their apps Metro. Just like how every app developer changes its design according to UI of every iOS update, at least major companies like Facebook.
    Sagar Limaye likes this.
    02-17-2015 09:47 AM
  20. rollindice's Avatar
    how many occasion one uses one hand on their phone...if I am not driving then I still used 2 hand to work on my phone....
    One hand usage on phone is VERY COMMON, allows you to multitask also....I love the swiping features in Windows Phone but I it scares me some of the UI changes.
    02-17-2015 09:56 AM
  21. bschiav's Avatar
    One hand usage on phone is VERY COMMON, allows you to multitask also....I love the swiping features in Windows Phone but I it scares me some of the UI changes.
    To add my usage experience. I use my phone almost exclusively one handed in 8.1. I think it's partially because I can...and partially because I'm just used to it. I use my phone frequently, and while on the go, but for short duration tasks (a quick text or search, etc.). My hands are large enough to make it pretty easy. Word Flow makes this possible even for texting. And the gesture/pivot and bottom right ellipsis controls work well.

    Sometimes you do "need" to use it one handed, but personally, I use it one handed even when I don't have a real "need" to do so. I wonder how many others use their phone like this?
    02-17-2015 10:19 AM
  22. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    To add my usage experience. I use my phone almost exclusively one handed in 8.1. I think it's partially because I can...and partially because I'm just used to it. I use my phone frequently, and while on the go, but for short duration tasks (a quick text or search, etc.). My hands are large enough to make it pretty easy. Word Flow makes this possible even for texting. And the gesture/pivot and bottom right ellipsis controls work well.

    Sometimes you do "need" to use it one handed, but personally, I use it one handed even when I don't have a real "need" to do so. I wonder how many others use their phone like this?


    Yes. I normally use my phone with only one hand and switch to both hands only if I am typing. Actually this is one of the reasons I bought Windows Phone. Besides looking beautiful, it was super easy to use with one hand.
    Last edited by white_Shadoww; 02-18-2015 at 12:41 AM.
    nohra, MikeSo and colinkiama like this.
    02-17-2015 10:48 AM
  23. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    To those who say, 'How many times you really need to use your phone in one hand because the other hand is occupied?'. I will tell you one incident that just hanneped to me.



    I am a college student. So I was reading this very big book. And suddenly, I needed to see a diagram, of which I had taken a photo in my phone from a notebook of my friend using Office lens. Now, what I did. I hold my book in the left hand. Grabbed my phone sitting on the desk with right hand. Opened Photos app, swiped to right, went to Camera roll, found the pic opened it. Compared that diagram to the one in the book, book being in left hand and phone in the right hand. That didn't clear my doubt either. So I called the same friend. I went to the dialer, swiped right to speed dials and called my friend.



    Imagine if my phone was on Windows 10. First, I would need to grab a bookmark to put in the book and close it, so that I could use my both hands to open Camera roll in the new photos app. Then I would need to put my phone in my right hand, open the book and compare the diagrams. For further calling my friend, I would again need to put the bookmark in the book, for being able to use my both hands just to do a simple phone call. Then after dialing him, I would need to open the book again, in order to ask him the doubt. Pretty tedious, no??



    And this is just one example. There are countless times I need to use my phone one handed. The arguement that 'Do you never use your phone with 2 hands?, Why do need to use a phone in one hand and something in the other hand? We have two hands, shouldn't we use both?' are just pathetic in my opinion. Why, if we can have a better UI, why depart from that? If you want more screen real estate, make fonts of pivots smaller, not cram every essential function in hamburger, out of reach.


    Sent from my Lumia 920!
    02-18-2015 12:54 AM
  24. skinnypig118's Avatar
    And this is just one example. There are countless times I need to use my phone one handed. The arguement that 'Do you never use your phone with 2 hands?, Why do need to use a phone in one hand and something in the other hand? We have two hands, shouldn't we use both?' are just pathetic in my opinion. Why, if we can have a better UI, why depart from that? If you want more screen real estate, make fonts of pivots smaller, not cram every essential function in hamburger, out of reach.
    Personally I don't get why we write on paper with one hand, we have two hands, shouldn't we use both?
    white_Shadoww, tgp, a5cent and 2 others like this.
    02-18-2015 05:53 AM
  25. manicottiK's Avatar
    Personally I don't get why we write on paper with one hand, we have two hands, shouldn't we use both?
    Or why people use only 10% of their brain, shouldn't we use the other 30%?
    skinnypig118, tgp and a5cent like this.
    02-18-2015 06:51 AM
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