03-24-2015 08:14 PM
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  1. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I don't see what the fuss is about hamburgers vs dots. As long as it works that's all that matters to me.

    Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk
    tgp and Nicholas Maguire like this.
    03-17-2015 03:19 PM
  2. manicottiK's Avatar
    I don't see what the fuss is about hamburgers vs dots. As long as it works that's all that matters to me.
    Excluding the folks complaining because it's fun to complain or because they aren't good with any kind of change, most of the argument has been around reachability, menu content, and loss of uniqueness. A few folks who are more into user experience issues have also raised the issues of function discoverability, general reachability, and changes in navigational models.

    The reachability issue can be addressed in a bunch of ways, including edge swiping, but another reachability issue is raised by shrinking the headers so that actionable content begins higher on the page. (Fun test: look at how quickly you can one-handedly access the jump lists of People than the all programs list -- this is because the People app, even with smaller headers, pushes the content down by having your picture at the top while the apps list starts all the way at the top.)

    There isn't yet consensus in the developer community about what should and shouldn't go in a hamburger menu panel. (Is it lesser used items, like those that in WP8 apps appear at the bottom of the app menu? Is it settings? Is it main app nav like in the Facebook app?) Even Microsoft hasn't been consistent in how its apps use the side panel so far. Of course, there are still several months to sort this out and produce guidance documentation.

    The full-page side wiping to change pano/pivot tabs is nice because it lets users swipe from anywhere. On the down side, it also prevents apps and lots of built-in controls from using sideways motions. A way around this might be to make the app bar at the bottom swipe aware so that it passes side swipes up to the visible pano/pivot/tab control. (I don't actually think that this is practical and it's certainly not discoverable.)

    The biggest change as I see it is in how hamburger menus as navigational controls will change the app experience. Right now, app flow is fairly straightforward in that users move deeper into an app by tapping items on a list and then back out with the Back key. If the hamburger panel includes main navigation, it would be easy to jump from function to function, creating loops of pages. This hasn't been the mobile model in the past, as least not for WP.

    One final thought, the introduction of hamburgers doesn't have to mean that every app needs one. Maybe the guidance will be that hamburgers are for certain kinds of apps while others stick with a simpler nav model. We'll see.
    03-17-2015 06:53 PM
  3. colinkiama's Avatar
    Just change the dots icon to a hamburger icon. Everyone wins
    Zig87 likes this.
    03-18-2015 12:27 PM
  4. manicottiK's Avatar
    Just change the dots icon to a hamburger icon. Everyone wins
    Only if we all think that a hamburger menu is supposed to hold up to four buttons and up to five(ish) menu items. The "hamburger tab" that's in the Facebook app is a totally different kind of beast with links to different parts of the app.

    The bulk of the fight about hamburgers so far has been about what they are. Frankly, if the user community and the developer community ARE NOT ACTUALLY SURE about what's supposed to go inside a hamburger panel, then maybe there isn't enough consensus to assume that users automatically know how to use them. (How can we know how to use it when we don't yet know what it's for?) This makes me think that the only thing that everyone thinks should go inside the hamburger panel is "seldom-used stuff that won't fit elsewhere." In that case, we might as well just call it "miscellaneous."
    a5cent and bschiav like this.
    03-18-2015 06:24 PM
  5. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    Just change the dots icon to a hamburger icon. Everyone wins
    Uh, no.

    Still trying to figure why we need hamburger menus when we already have the ellipsis to put stuff under. It's a solution to a problem that no one ever had.
    03-18-2015 06:24 PM
  6. colinkiama's Avatar
    Uh, no.

    Still trying to figure why we need hamburger menus when we already have the ellipsis to put stuff under. It's a solution to a problem that no one ever had.
    Unfortunately, Windows 10 will share UI elements between platforms which is why Microsoft is bringing the hamburger in. If they put ellipsis on the phone, they would have to do it on pcs, tablets and even xbox too.
    03-18-2015 06:33 PM
  7. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    I'm aware of that. So what current tablet/Windows 8 apps have hamburger menus? Of the few dozen I have on my pc none of them have them. So again, why?

    Personally I think it really comes down to MS' design team slowly but gradually losing their way after 8.1 and not being as smart about certain things as they once were.
    a5cent and white_Shadoww like this.
    03-18-2015 07:37 PM
  8. hyperthermia's Avatar
    The problem is desktop and phone os is being merged and a uniform experience is the goal. Desktop apps have the controls on top and windows phone have them comfortably at the bottom. We all know that wp interface and experience is a lot better but the market for desktop which ms really care about is a lot bigger. Ms priority is shifting desktop users to go mobile while being familiar more than pleasing already existing happy wp users. I think the onedrive app should be the standard keeping the hamburger buttons, pivots and ellipsis together. Hamburger menu should hide general settings, account log in and profiles and app sub folders , while the ellipsis should keep functions unique to the app like starting a new chat for wechat , pin to start and nearby for 6tab , rate and review for apps and so on.
    03-18-2015 08:09 PM
  9. Spectrum90's Avatar
    That bar of controls at the bottom is really ugly in Windows Phone, It makes all the apps look bad, they definitely have to remove it. I don't know what they were thinking.

    I'd only allow contextual menus to appear at the bottom for particular operations.
    03-18-2015 08:20 PM
  10. colinkiama's Avatar
    That bar of controls at the bottom is really ugly in Windows Phone, It makes all the apps look bad, they definitely have to remove it. I don't know what they were thinking.

    I'd only allow contextual menus to appear at the bottom for particular operations.
    Never heard anyone say that it's ugly before. Very interesting
    03-19-2015 11:35 AM
  11. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Never heard anyone say that it's ugly before. Very interesting
    Absolutely, that thing takes like 10% of the screen, sometimes I don't use those commands for weeks. In the Money app or Sport app I haven't touched that bar in years, but It's always there using space and breaking the app content with its ugliness. There is plenty of space at the top of the screen, they should move those things there.
    03-19-2015 12:11 PM
  12. TechFreak1's Avatar
    Absolutely, that thing takes like 10% of the screen, sometimes I don't use those commands for weeks. In the Money app or Sport app I haven't touched that bar in years, but It's always there using space and breaking the app content with its ugliness. There is plenty of space at the top of the screen, they should move those things there.
    10% of the screen?

    The app bar is locked to 72 pixels in height of portrait and width in landscape mode.

    Just because you find it hideous, doesn't mean it has to be removed. Besides it is not impending your usage is it?

    I bet, once they do move it to the top you would complain that it hurts your hands as you have to stretch all the way to the top. There is a reason why it is at the bottom, the same reason why Apple made small phones until recently.
    Last edited by TechFreak1; 03-19-2015 at 01:13 PM.
    Kram Sacul likes this.
    03-19-2015 12:54 PM
  13. manicottiK's Avatar
    ...that thing takes like 10% of the screen...
    Well, Microsoft could have chosen to use the mini-appbar on those news article panels, just as they did on the photo-centric main panel. In that case, the bar is smaller and simpler.
    03-19-2015 02:36 PM
  14. Spectrum90's Avatar
    10% of the screen?

    The app bar is locked to 72 pixels in height of portrait and width in landscape mode.

    Just because you find it hideous, doesn't mean it has to be removed. Besides it is not impending your usage is it?

    I bet, once they do move it to the top you would complain that it hurts your hands as you have to stretch all the way to the top. There is a reason why it is at the bottom, the same reason why Apple made small phones until recently.

    72 pixels is 9% of the screen in portrait and 15% in landscape. What's the point of using 9%-15% of the screen on something mostly useless? There is plenty of space at the top of every app for those things.

    I don't touch that bar more than a couple of times a day. So, removing that ugly bar won't hurt my hands.
    03-19-2015 03:13 PM
  15. TechFreak1's Avatar
    72 pixels is 9% of the screen in portrait and 15% in landscape. What's the point of using 9%-15% of the screen on something mostly useless? There is plenty of space at the top of every app for those things.

    I don't touch that bar more than a couple of times a day. So, removing that ugly bar won't hurt my hands.
    The % your quoting is not true for all phones so it is not a blanket fact and besides your better off using a phone with on screen buttons like the Lumia 730 or M8 for windows where you can hide the keys if you detest it that much.

    And plus as it is not impending your usage of the phone, o/s and it is functions so your complaint really doesn't weight too much in the grand scheme of things (beauty is subjective). I don't mean to be rude but just because you say & feel it is "useless" doesn't mean it is "useless", best keep your sense of entitlement in check; you have not been appointed by anyone to speak for everyone who uses windows phone.

    So let's agree to disagree as there is no point in prolonging this pointless debate, as I am not going to spend time discussing the merits of good design and bad design with someone who is complaining about the app bar because it is "ugly" and would only
    allow contextual menus to appear at the bottom for particular operations.
    .
    Last edited by TechFreak1; 03-19-2015 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
    a5cent likes this.
    03-19-2015 03:50 PM
  16. colinkiama's Avatar
    Absolutely, that thing takes like 10% of the screen, sometimes I don't use those commands for weeks. In the Money app or Sport app I haven't touched that bar in years, but It's always there using space and breaking the app content with its ugliness. There is plenty of space at the top of the screen, they should move those things there.
    But then you'll have to stretch your fingers on big phones, eventually you will give up and start using two hands. Have you noticed that you could use the whole OS with just one hand thanks to the way Microsoft designed wp with the app bar?
    03-19-2015 04:45 PM
  17. manicottiK's Avatar
    Absolutely, that thing takes like 10% of the screen, sometimes I don't use those commands for weeks. In the Money app or Sport app I haven't touched that bar in years, but It's always there using space and breaking the app content with its ugliness. There is plenty of space at the top of the screen, they should move those things there.
    Although Microsoft chose not to implement it in the Money or Sports apps, in the News app, they use the "mini-bar" on the initial panel since that panel is a full-bleed photo. (On the other panels of News, they use the full-sized appbar.) This shows that there are different ways to provide commands to users.

    There's plenty of "space" at the top of the screen because the pixels at the top are less useful for command interaction because they are far from where the users' hands are usually holding the phone. Arguments that users can use two hands are correct in fact, but incorrect in suggesting that two-handed use is the preferred way to work. By designing for one hand, users can use one hand or two. By designing for two hands, users get no choice.
    a5cent, colinkiama and Kram Sacul like this.
    03-19-2015 08:03 PM
  18. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Although Microsoft chose not to implement it in the Money or Sports apps, in the News app, they use the "mini-bar" on the initial panel since that panel is a full-bleed photo. (On the other panels of News, they use the full-sized appbar.) This shows that there are different ways to provide commands to users.

    There's plenty of "space" at the top of the screen because the pixels at the top are less useful for command interaction because they are far from where the users' hands are usually holding the phone. Arguments that users can use two hands are correct in fact, but incorrect in suggesting that two-handed use is the preferred way to work. By designing for one hand, users can use one hand or two. By designing for two hands, users get no choice.

    Taking 9%-15% of the screen of a small device to show commands that are rarely used is an awful design. Not even a drunk designer would make such a mistake.

    With the big phones that people like to buy these days, there is already no choice, they have to be used with both hands. Besides, in most apps that bar is not touched in days, weeks, months or even years! So, that's a poor excuse.
    The "mini-bar" is just little less awful, that's not enough.

    Thankfully, It seems they're correcting this error in Windows 10.
    03-19-2015 08:45 PM
  19. colinkiama's Avatar
    Taking 9%-15% of the screen of a small device to show commands that are rarely used is an awful design. Not even a drunk designer would make such a mistake.

    With the big phones that people like to buy these days, there is already no choice, they have to be used with both hands. Besides, in most apps that bar is not touched in days, weeks, months or even years! So, that's a poor excuse.
    The "mini-bar" is just little less awful, that's not enough.

    Thankfully, It seems they're correcting this error in Windows 10.
    Rarely used? How on earth is posting comments in the Windows Central app, or post a new update on Facebook, send a message on Whatsapp, post a new comment etc. Even though some people still have to use the phones with two hands on big phones, the app bar saves them from having to move their second hand all over the screen. Making operations so much faster to do
    03-20-2015 01:28 AM
  20. colinkiama's Avatar
    Although Microsoft chose not to implement it in the Money or Sports apps, in the News app, they use the "mini-bar" on the initial panel since that panel is a full-bleed photo. (On the other panels of News, they use the full-sized appbar.) This shows that there are different ways to provide commands to users.

    There's plenty of "space" at the top of the screen because the pixels at the top are less useful for command interaction because they are far from where the users' hands are usually holding the phone. Arguments that users can use two hands are correct in fact, but incorrect in suggesting that two-handed use is the preferred way to work. By designing for one hand, users can use one hand or two. By designing for two hands, users get no choice.
    And did they really have to kill the pivots?
    03-20-2015 01:29 AM
  21. manicottiK's Avatar
    And did they really have to kill the pivots?
    The addition of the splitview control does not mean that the pivot control has been removed. Certainly, pivot-based apps from WP8 do run on W10M, so the control is still present in some form. While Microsoft is pushing universal apps, phone-only apps can probably still be created and use pano or pivot controls. We'll learn a lot more at Build starting on April 29.
    03-20-2015 06:06 AM
  22. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Rarely used? How on earth is posting comments in the Windows Central app, or post a new update on Facebook, send a message on Whatsapp, post a new comment etc. Even though some people still have to use the phones with two hands on big phones, the app bar saves them from having to move their second hand all over the screen. Making operations so much faster to do
    Controls in those apps should appear only when needed, that's the mean of "Contextual". In the Windows Central app that's actually the case, a good designer on the platform, hurrah!
    Adding that bar to all the pages of an app, or even worse to all the apps, is obviously stupid. They have to move those things to the top of the app where there is plenty of room.

    Besides, the phone is used primarily for content consumption, people is not clicking buttons used in content creation all the day, in my case, sometimes I don't touch that bar in weeks. Supposedly only the 1% of the users in a forum or public site is a content creator.
    03-20-2015 08:16 AM
  23. manicottiK's Avatar
    Controls in those apps should appear only when needed, that's the mean of "Contextual".
    Yes, and they ARE contextual. As you slide from panel to panel in Sports, Money, or News, the app bar buttons change to those appropriate for the kind of actions that a user would want on such a page. The sports score page has a refresh button while the Market panel in the Money app does not. Buttons to add, rearrange, or pin stocks or teams appears on those panels. News panels have search buttons.

    Given that it appears to several of us that the apps are already doing what you ask, is your only complaint that you want the controls moved from the bottom (where they are accessible when using the phone one-handed) to the top (where two hands are needed)? If so, why do you want them moved to the less convenient place? Is it because you place more value on the aesthetics of how the app looks than on the effectiveness of how the app works? (I don't mean that to sound combative and recognize that each of us have different preferences.)
    03-20-2015 12:38 PM
  24. colinkiama's Avatar
    Controls in those apps should appear only when needed, that's the mean of "Contextual". In the Windows Central app that's actually the case, a good designer on the platform, hurrah!
    Adding that bar to all the pages of an app, or even worse to all the apps, is obviously stupid. They have to move those things to the top of the app where there is plenty of room.

    Besides, the phone is used primarily for content consumption, people is not clicking buttons used in content creation all the day, in my case, sometimes I don't touch that bar in weeks. Supposedly only the 1% of the users in a forum or public site is a content creator.
    Apps are like how you described already. And doesn't the app bar blend in with the design of the app in most cases anyway?
    white_Shadoww likes this.
    03-20-2015 01:39 PM
  25. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Yes, and they ARE contextual. As you slide from panel to panel in Sports, Money, or News, the app bar buttons change to those appropriate for the kind of actions that a user would want on such a page. The sports score page has a refresh button while the Market panel in the Money app does not. Buttons to add, rearrange, or pin stocks or teams appears on those panels. News panels have search buttons.

    Given that it appears to several of us that the apps are already doing what you ask, is your only complaint that you want the controls moved from the bottom (where they are accessible when using the phone one-handed) to the top (where two hands are needed)? If so, why do you want them moved to the less convenient place? Is it because you place more value on the aesthetics of how the app looks than on the effectiveness of how the app works? (I don't mean that to sound combative and recognize that each of us have different preferences.)
    Using 9%-15% of the screen real estate of a small device to show controls which in many cases have a frequency of use measured in days, months, weeks or even years, is a mistake. Those controls could be moved to the top with minimal impact in single hand usage.
    Only use the bottom of the screen to show controls when they are regularly used in the page.

    The other reason is aesthetics, the bar breaks the design of the apps, It breaks the immersive experience of the app and its content.

    That bar is the bad design for both functional and aesthetics reasons. Thankfully this mistake is being corrected in Windows 10, and now things work exactly as It should be.
    03-20-2015 04:14 PM
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