Is W10P entering a pure features battle and losing its distinct design identity?

[2tomtom]

Only the bit of Metro that is remaining in the new UI is besides flat design is, the font Segoe WP. Everything else is changed with something ugly. If you put Segoe WP on a lollipop phone, even it would look more Metro than Windows 10. Windows 10 is more like Kitkat.
Sent from my Lumia 920!

Live tiles?
Most secure OS?

 

[matt john2]

I share this sentiment. Let us at least wait and see what they have planned before everyone jumps the gun.

I also agree with you.

I hope that the new universal design will reduced the confusions like "windows phone? Isn't that the PC?" I hope MS could finally nail it this time and let the PC and WP talk to each other more.

 

[white_Shadoww]

Live tiles?
Most secure OS?

I don't know how I forgot Live tiles.. Lol!
And I was talking about UI, so being the most secure OS doesn't count. But, nontheless, it is a point in favour of WP.

 

[a5cent]

Not sure if this has been brought up already, but it might also be easier for devs to not have to redesign their app logic completely when porting their app to WP10. If all UI elements from iOS and Android get a WP equivalent, maybe some degree of automated porting could even be done. If this helps close the app gap, I'll have all you can eat hamburgers please.

Well, some of the posters here said that Microsoft is changing the UI so it's easier for developers, that it's meant to invite more devs.

I assume that with "it" you are also referring to how easy it is for developers to port apps. I place little faith in those claims.

People not involved in the software industry tend to greatly overestimate the importance of how a UI looks in terms of how that impacts porting costs. Compared to the costs incurred by each OS having completely different libraries, frameworks, and (less importantly) using different programming languages, the impact of a more similar looking UI is limited. Consider that even with a similar UI, the instructions that draw those similar UI's to their screens are still completely different. What we're talking about here is solely conceptual similarity, not technical similarity. That's not nothing, but for something as simple as an app, conceptual similarity isn't that big of a deal either. How much of a difference do you expect that to make? How long do you think it would take for someone who made, say, Tapatalk for Android, to come up with the corresponding design for WP? I'd say most people on this website could do that rather quickly. That's the difference we're talking about. Not more.

IMHO the view that this would make a substantial difference can only be maintained through ignorance.

There is an entirely different angle which might make more sense. We've heard about MS potentially attempting to provide a way for developers to develop an app but once, with the ability for that single app to run unmodified on all three platforms. That is not called porting, nor would that directly affect any of the Android apps that already exist, but having a very similar UI is probably the only way to get that to work effectively. If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating.

And one last thing. I work in the software industry and have over the last few months talked with multiple CTO's who's companies don't provide apps for WP. They don't all have the same reasons for not supporting WP, but none of them cited porting costs as a reason either.

 

[manicottiK]

UI was always a strong point of WP compared to Android and iOS and it was easier too. So, there it goes 'easier for users to embrace'.

Nah...it's a learning curve issue. Because WP is different, it presents a hurdle for users to get over -- they have to learn a different way of doing things. If, as many of us say, the WP way is better, the user is quickly rewarded with greater ease of use and/or productivity. However, if users won't even jump that first hurdle, WP stays in the single digits of market share.

The real challenge is, can Microsoft make an OS that removes the hurdle yet still provides a way to be more productive? So far, it doesn't look good, but it's very early in the development of W10. I wish that we have a "principles" document or a map that showed us how and where Microsoft was going.

 

[fatclue_98]

Sounds like you are saying WP and webOS are failures because of the design. I would propose that Android and iOS are popular because of the app and games on offer. Apple phones became popular because of the design AND the availability of iTunes, Apps and games.

No, not at all. Metro and webOS were very good designs but people didn't adopt them and their sales suffered. That's not an opinion, that's what happened. Was it lack of marketing, lack of popular apps, crappy hardware (webOS) or a combination? more than likely. But UI was definitely not the problem. You're seeing the same with BB OS10, excellent design but garbage sales (compared to the market leaders).

 

[2tomtom]

If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating..

The UI changes seen from a user point of view, mainly the hamburger menu is not liked. The best explanation I've seen is the link below, from an Apple viewpoint.

Apple on Hamburger Menus

I hope the ease of use from swipe/pivots is not replaced with bizarrely placed hamburger menus that can not be reached.

 

[2tomtom]

You're seeing the same with BB OS10, excellent design but garbage sales (compared to the market leaders).

Interesting story on Blackberry below.

BBC News - Make coders develop Blackberry apps, says firm's boss

Is it the apps/ecosystem, or lack of, that equates to garbage sales?

 

[manicottiK]

The UI changes seen from a user point of view, mainly the hamburger menu is not liked.

Interestingly, I think that everyday users are in favor of hamburgers because they know them and that UX-trained folks oppose them because studies show that hamburgers are bad for users.

Any of us who do development or apps, websites, or even signage see this kind of thing all the time. People often ask for the exact opposite of what they need, not because of some latent masochism but because they don't understand or accept the difference between intuitive and familiar. Microsoft's challenge is make something that looks familiar so that people will take a look at W10 and stop complaining about changes WHILE also making the OS and the apps that folks develop easy to shift into a "productive" mode.

I'm just started thinking about how one of my apps might change in W10. At least superficially, as relates to where some navigation buttons might appear, I'm considering adding a setting that lets users switch between "familiar" and "productive" modes.

 

[a5cent]

The UI changes seen from a user point of view, mainly the hamburger menu is not liked. The best explanation I've seen is the link below, from an Apple viewpoint.

Apple on Hamburger Menus

I don't follow.

Me: Cross-platform single source development is potentially a much better reason (than porting costs) for MS moving WP's UI away from Metro and towards a more traditional approach.
You: This link explains why the hamburger button is not liked.

I completely agree with that article you linked to. I just don't see the connection to what you quoted. Did you maybe quote the wrong part?

 

[2tomtom]

I don't follow.

Me: Cross-platform single source development is potentially a much better reason (than porting costs) for MS moving WP's UI away from Metro and towards a more traditional approach.
You: This link explains why the hamburger button is not liked.

I completely agree with that article you linked to. I just don't see the connection to what you quoted. Did you maybe quote the wrong part?

Should have been;

"If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating."

I was replying from the topic "Is W10P entering a pure features battle and losing its distinct design identity?" point of view and the quoted comment together. You very interestingly, and I would think correctly, nailed the reason for the changes, from a Microsoft point of view. I was attempting to give a users point of view, especially to the hamburger menu.

Although the changes in W10 may prove to gain more apps, it does result in a loss of distinct design quality. The pivot/swipe/metro design may be compromised or disappear to placate the functional.

 

[a5cent]

I was replying from the topic "Is W10P entering a pure features battle and losing its distinct design identity?" point of view and the quoted comment together. You very interestingly, and I would think correctly, nailed the reason for the changes, from a Microsoft point of view. I was attempting to give a users point of view, especially to the hamburger menu.

Although the changes in W10 may prove to gain more apps, it does result in a loss of distinct design quality. The pivot/swipe/metro design may be compromised or disappear to placate the functional.

Okay, I understand now. You're pointing out that some of Microsoft's UI interests and those of users (or at least some users) are mutually exclusive. If I'm speculating correctly, and I have no idea if I am, then yes, I'd agree. Good point.

 

[fatclue_98]

Interesting story on Blackberry below.

BBC News - Make coders develop Blackberry apps, says firm's boss

Is it the apps/ecosystem, or lack of, that equates to garbage sales?

We already covered that here:

http://forums.windowscentral.com/general-microsoft-news-discussion/335815-2.htm#post2988286

 

[Sagar Limaye]

There is an entirely different angle which might make more sense. We've heard about MS potentially attempting to provide a way for developers to develop an app but once, with the ability for that single app to run unmodified on all three platforms. That is not called porting, nor would that directly affect any of the Android apps that already exist, but having a very similar UI is probably the only way to get that to work effectively. If MS is in fact working on that ability, then you can bet your bottom dollar that's what's behind these UI changes. Not porting costs like some are speculating.

You're absolutely right. But, what I and most people hate about the universal app theory is that it's causing the phone to get a UI which is more suitable for use on a PC. Perhaps, if MS could keep those apps universal but not change the phone UI, everyone would be happy.

 

[rockstarzzz]

You're absolutely right. But, what I and most people hate about the universal app theory is that it's causing the phone to get a UI which is more suitable for use on a PC. Perhaps, if MS could keep those apps universal but not change the phone UI, everyone would be happy.

Is there a uservoice for this yet?

 

[Sagar Limaye]

Is there a uservoice for this yet?

On the WP uservoice, there are a few suggestions such as "Stick to modern, don't copy android" with considerable votes, so I'm guessing it's got Microsoft's attention.

 

[bschiav]

I don't think UX consistency equals an identical UX across all devices...we simply do not use a phone, a PC, and a tablet in the exact same way and with the exact same ergonomics. It just flat out doesn't happen...

We see Microsoft acknowledging this now in Windows 10 with the Desktop and Tablet toggle.

Poor use of pivots in certain apps...regardless of which UI elements you choose to set, you will always have app developers that utilize them poorly. That's on the developer to be more intelligent about how they lay out applications. Everything new about the design language will also be butchered by certain applications...

 

[bschiav]

All I'm trying to illustrate is that a consistent experience across devices doesn't mean they have to use identical controls.

I agree!

 

[mobilejk]

This is like Windows 8 redeux.

Think about it they are forcing a UI down everyone's throat across every size screen which will end up making nobody happy.

And I've actually been a strong customer for MS for years simply for the fact I don't trust Google and can't stand Apple. Looks like in a few years if MS keeps this up I may have to pick the best of 2 evils.

 

[2tomtom]

Okay, I understand now. You're pointing out that some of Microsoft's UI interests and those of users (or at least some users) are mutually exclusive. If I'm speculating correctly, and I have no idea if I am, then yes, I'd agree. Good point.

Yes, exactly my point.