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03-24-2015 08:14 PM
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  1. veigald's Avatar
    When I bought my first WP device a few years back, one of the major reasons was the fantastically well thought through design and consistency of it. The pivot control part of Metro was a key element in this, with swipeable tabs/pages instead of dropdowns/similar. It was one of the key elements I showed to people when demoing my phone and everyone agrees it's a great feature, setting WP apart from the rest design-wise.

    Now that seems to completely have changed, with hamburger menus in the top left corner seemingly being a new standard. Not only is this bad for the OS design superiority and identity of WP, it's also bad for usability. The main reason iPhones have been small screen only, is that navigation is on top. That makes it hard for most people to use one hand for navigation. Pivot control allows you to swipe left or right at any part of the screen, thus not needing to stretch up top or use both hands.

    Is Microsoft really ditching pivot control guidelines for hamburger menus? Please say it isn't so.
    02-13-2015 06:34 AM
  2. rollindice's Avatar
    i myself want to know same thing I love the ease of swipe left and right on any part of the screen, I haven't installed TP 10 but I've noticed a lot of what you're saying indeed in videos
    02-13-2015 07:57 AM
  3. realwarder's Avatar
    Current TP 10 is a real mix of UI design. A lot of the new PC style is coming to the phone with a theme applied.

    I'm sure it will evolve, but it does currently feel like it has 2 or 3 heads. Hopefully that will settle down quickly.
    nohra and xandros9 like this.
    02-13-2015 08:11 AM
  4. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Short answer is yes. Microsoft has caved in. We know "team features" won, "team uniqueness" lost when WP didn't cross 4% mark in 5 years!
    colinkiama, tgp, MikeSo and 15 others like this.
    02-13-2015 09:04 AM
  5. chenhogi's Avatar
    Short answer is yes. Microsoft has caved in. We know "team features" won, "team uniqueness" lost when WP didn't cross 4% mark in 5 years!
    That is very sad if true.
    Jonnie LasVegas, nohra and wpn00b like this.
    02-13-2015 09:30 AM
  6. skinnypig118's Avatar
    I can't agree more with the op's sentiments. From what I've seen the wp10 UI in its current state is an inconsistent mess. I know it's just the first preview, but what's there now is enough to raise some early alarms. I hope they'll listen to the true WP fans out there and bring back the thoughtful UI elements that made the OS a joy to use.
    02-13-2015 11:36 AM
  7. tgp's Avatar
    From what I've seen the wp10 UI in its current state is an inconsistent mess.
    Yes. And this is exactly what users here have complained about on Android for a long time. But know what? It goes along with features. There's little you cannot do with Android, while WP used to have comparatively few features, but with a very simplistic UI. Now as features are added it's becoming more complicated to use.

    What we need is a simple UI without sacrificing functionality!
    02-13-2015 12:37 PM
  8. EBUK's Avatar
    I like what I've seen so far. But until I have the chance to use the technical preview I know for certain.

    If the hamburger menu is the price to pay for a more powerful OS, an OS that attracts the Android and iOS devs we need to port apps to WP, and an OS that increases market share, then I think it's a price worth paying.
    02-13-2015 12:41 PM
  9. MikeSo's Avatar
    Short answer is yes. Microsoft has caved in. We know "team features" won, "team uniqueness" lost when WP didn't cross 4% mark in 5 years!
    Sadly, that is the case. They gave it a good effort, but people WANT features, and with features come compromises.

    It still looks distinctly WP overall though. You won't mistake it for any other phone in the OS part. But the apps are losing their distictive UI rules.
    02-13-2015 12:51 PM
  10. minus365's Avatar
    There's loads of work to made it to the OS we all love since WP7. I'm bit afraid decision was made and win10 will be too much android style :/
    rollindice likes this.
    02-13-2015 01:00 PM
  11. bschiav's Avatar
    I'm with most of you on this. And thought that consistency is great, and we should reserve judgement. And so I did. But when you actually try the preview, go to the photos app. This will give you an idea of the benchmark that most other apps will likely follow.

    In practice, it is a major step back. And not just of the "it takes time to get used to" variety...it is a legit step back functionally. It's actually quite frustrating to use when you go to do something that you've always done and your mind gets tripped up; you then have to put your second hand on the device to use it. It seems minor, but you will know what I mean when you just try it out. Try not to think about it ahead of time...just "use" it.

    The problem is...I don't think anyone really knows yet what the best solution may be...because pivots get clunky with the keyboard/mouse UX. I really think they needed to retain their metro design language for all MUI apps (Tablet and Phone). And go full hog on the distinction and toggle in Windows 10 for Tablet vs. Desktop mode...the keyboard/mouse constraints are bleeding into our touch only device usage scenarios and degrading that UX by a significant margin...
    02-13-2015 01:03 PM
  12. TheCudder's Avatar
    Hamburger, hamburger, hamburger ---- I personally think Microsoft nailed it on the head wit the hamburger menu in WinRT apps & its new app UI design. I say this because it's basically the perfect layout to make WinRT apps make sense on the Desktop, which we need to happen badly to have any chance of getting more support for universal apps for the Desktop & Phone. Microsoft's plan was to make your phone's UI an "extension" of your Windows desktop, laptop & tablet by keeping the core of the user experience extremely similar and the hamburger icon works like the "File" button in Windows, users just know to tap or click it it to activate the app[lication] menu. Swyping through pivots with your thumb on a phone works fine, but not so much on a desktop or even a tablet --- seriously, for those of you who have non-touch laptops & desktops with Windows 8.x, how awkward do you feel scrolling your vertical mouse wheel to go through an app's horizontal content?

    So how do you suppose Microsoft better create a similar experience across devices?

    I will say, that Microsoft should include a gesture based action to activate the hamburger menu list. I'm happy to see Microsoft dialing back a bit on the "swype" crazed (and hidden) navigation that came with Windows 8.
    jojoe42, rhapdog and L Beezy like this.
    02-13-2015 01:24 PM
  13. TheCudder's Avatar
    In practice, it is a major step back. And not just of the "it takes time to get used to" variety...it is a legit step back functionally. It's actually quite frustrating to use when you go to do something that you've always done and your mind gets tripped up; you then have to put your second hand on the device to use it. It seems minor, but you will know what I mean when you just try it out. Try not to think about it ahead of time...just "use" it.
    Not attacking you --- but isn't this EXACTLY what happened from Windows 7 to Windows 8? But Windows lovers complained that users can't except changed and are stuck in their dumb ways?
    02-13-2015 01:28 PM
  14. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    Anyone up for trying to voice this through uservoice? We could have a thread with links to uservoice aiming to explaining how screwed up and step backward this is. We have plenty of old veterans here for WP.
    Sent from my Darth V.
    Mahdi Ghiasi, a5cent and wpn00b like this.
    02-13-2015 01:29 PM
  15. TonyRAnderson's Avatar
    Personally I think team "consistent experience" won. They need WP10 to behave like Win10 so Windows users get a single UI language. The alternative is to bring pivots yo the desktop, but that might not work well. I do think pivots were awesome though. :(
    I think this is the case. They want a universal experience across Windows 10, so the UI is being consistent ...from that standpoint.
    02-13-2015 01:30 PM
  16. bschiav's Avatar
    Hamburger, hamburger, hamburger ---- I personally think Microsoft nailed it on the head wit the hamburger menu in WinRT apps & its new app UI design. I say this because it's basically the perfect layout to make WinRT apps make sense on the Desktop, which we need to happen badly to have any chance of getting more support for universal apps for the Desktop & Phone. Microsoft's plan was to make your phone's UI an "extension" of your Windows desktop, laptop & tablet by keeping the core of the user experience extremely similar and the hamburger icon works like the "File" button in Windows, users just know to tap or click it it to activate the app[lication] menu. Swyping through pivots with your thumb on a phone works fine, but not so much on a desktop or even a tablet --- seriously, for those of you who have non-touch laptops & desktops with Windows 8.x, how awkward do you feel scrolling your vertical mouse wheel to go through an app's horizontal content?

    So how do you suppose Microsoft better create a similar experience across devices?

    I will say, that Microsoft should include a gesture based action to activate the hamburger menu list. I'm happy to see Microsoft dialing back a bit on the "swype" crazed (and hidden) navigation that came with Windows 8.
    Have you used it yet? So you agree it's not as good on a phone, but your saying it's a necessary evil? I think Microsoft agrees with you there.

    I'm wondering if they move the same visual elements to the right hand side, and allow a swipe from right to open the hamburger...we'd have a better compromise for accessing app settings and options.

    I still prefer gestures to toggle app function, i.e. search results between web/local/images/etc. You really ought to check the Win 10 preview to see what we're saying. See specifically the dialer, cortana search results, and the photos app.

    How bad is it to retain one UX element in a phone app that "does not" carry over to other windows MUI apps? Would that level of inconsistency really be that bad on developers and consumers?
    Last edited by bvone21; 02-13-2015 at 02:07 PM.
    aaa6112 likes this.
    02-13-2015 01:36 PM
  17. bschiav's Avatar
    Not attacking you --- but isn't this EXACTLY what happened from Windows 7 to Windows 8? But Windows lovers complained that users can't except changed and are stuck in their dumb ways?
    EDIT: Sorry, I didn't catch what you had bolded. I meant that a different way, in that I know the function I want to perform. I can see it on the screen, I reach for it with my thumb, can't quite get there...fumble with my phone then put my left hand on the phone to pick up my right hand from the phone and hit the button. Now all this happens pretty quickly right? So it's not as exaggerated as this text reads. But those steps do occur..

    I'm not saying that I'm resistant to change...I'm saying that performing the same function I've always performed, is in actuality much more inefficient than it was in the old UX. So how do we refine the UI so that it's visually similar to what will be provided on tablets/PC's, yet not detract so much from the phone UX?

    As I get used to it, I won't fumble with my phone as much...but I still need those hand movements to get the action accomplished. That inefficiency will never go away, no matter how much I "get used to it."

    I'll accept change...but not blindly...

    I deleted the original text of this post, since that wasn't responding to what you asked.
    Last edited by bvone21; 02-13-2015 at 01:54 PM.
    aaa6112 likes this.
    02-13-2015 01:43 PM
  18. jojoe42's Avatar
    I think this is the case. They want a universal experience across Windows 10, so the UI is being consistent ...from that standpoint.
    Agreed. Pivots work well on touch, but not well on keyboard and mouse. Hamburger icons work okay on both (everyone knows what they do). Also you have to remember the main reason why Windows 8 was thrashed was because of its' unusual (read:not typical) design language. With Windows 10, MS wants people from ANY platform to be able to quickly pick up the UI in W10 and apply that to any version. If you don't make the OS familiar, you're going to scare some users.
    TheCudder likes this.
    02-13-2015 01:49 PM
  19. JamesDax's Avatar
    No.
    02-13-2015 01:52 PM
  20. Alain_A's Avatar
    Agreed. Pivots work well on touch, but not well on keyboard and mouse. Hamburger icons work okay on both (everyone knows what they do). Also you have to remember the main reason why Windows 8 was thrashed was because of its' unusual (read:not typical) design language. With Windows 10, MS wants people from ANY platform to be able to quickly pick up the UI in W10 and apply that to any version. If you don't make the OS familiar, you're going to scare some users.
    that's right
    portalfocus likes this.
    02-13-2015 01:53 PM
  21. bschiav's Avatar
    that's right
    I guess that's what I'm challenging...why do I have to have pivots for keyboard and mouse use just becaue they're in my phone app? Windows 10 already toggles between desktop and tablet mode. That same toggle in desktop mode could take the pivot title content and make them buttons in the UI instead of a pivot (like the current UI proposed).

    I don't think it's crazy to expect that some elements of the UX will be unique to a device where it makes sense...you can still tie the experiences together for visual consistency.
    02-13-2015 02:01 PM
  22. user4545's Avatar
    You could almost never swipe yourself in to settings in an app, had to press the ... dots in the lower right corner to get to settings. So not much difference there. Yes swiping between app functions as in Instagram is great, but lets face it, Microsoft is in no position do dictate how developers should design apps. If this can bring more apps and more important, quality apps from Android and iOS developers then it's a small tradeoff. Developers should be able to design their apps to their liking. Spotify is a good example which now looks the same on all platforms and works great.
    TheCudder likes this.
    02-13-2015 02:12 PM
  23. Alain_A's Avatar
    I guess MS want everything to look the same no matter what you are picking up. so you know where everything is
    02-13-2015 02:15 PM
  24. TheCudder's Avatar
    Still though, it would be cool if they could implement kind of an 'adaptive UI', where there would be a standard way to collapse a pivot menu into a delicious hamburger menu depending on screen size. That way developers would code once, we would get our pivots, and laptop users would get their hamburgers. But maybe this is tricky to get right.

    Edit: ah, this is basically exactly what bvone21 said.
    This goes against the UX consistency. Now you've introduced an app that may have the same colors and icon design, but it works differently than your tablet or desktop. I really think the pivot menu is over rated. As someone mentioned, it works great to swipe through menu's in an app like Instagram , and at the same time these 4 screen's have" tapable" icons that go directly to them. However, pivoting in apps like Mint, Rhapsody or MSN Money drive me crazy --- some times the pivot swipe becomes endless, you don't realize that you've passed the section you want, some of the pivot screens have ADDITIONAL sub-menu's within them & sometimes it's just way too much with the "metro" text headers & blank space (the Rhapsody app in specific has this issue) --- it can be come inefficient easily. It'd be so much easier to launch the hamburger icon and see a full list of menu with more complex apps.
    MikeSo, rhapdog, Maonsie and 1 others like this.
    02-13-2015 02:41 PM
  25. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    This goes against the UX consistency. Now you've introduced an app that may have the same colors and icon design, but it works differently than your tablet or desktop. I really think the pivot menu is over rated. As someone mentioned, it works great to swipe through menu's in an app like Instagram , and at the same time these 4 screen's have" tapable" icons that go directly to them. However, pivoting in apps like Mint, Rhapsody or MSN Money drive me crazy --- some times the pivot swipe becomes endless, you don't realize that you've passed the section you want, some of the pivot screens have ADDITIONAL sub-menu's within them & sometimes it's just way too much with the "metro" text headers & blank space (the Rhapsody app in specific has this issue) --- it can be come inefficient easily. It'd be so much easier to launch the hamburger icon and see a full list of menu with more complex apps.



    Speaking about consistency across devices, I don't think that is a good idea. Every device has it's own usage scenario. On phones and tablet you are using touch screen, while on a desktop you are using mouse and keyboard. Touch screen and mouse and keyboard work differently, so one UI across all devices can't be done without sacrificing UI either on phones or on desktops. Windows 8 sacrificed desktop UI and Windows 10 is sacrificing touch phone UI.



    Microsoft should be worried about giving same features across devices and not the UI. For ex, the Photos app, collecting all the photos from all the devices through OneDrive, this 'feature' is great. Having same UI on both, not so great. Solution would be, some code added to universal apps, that makes the menus pivot if detected a phone or tablet, and makes the menus inside a hamburger if detected a desktop (which is what some people suggested here, thanks for this great idea).



    Or maybe, if hamburger is really necessary to keep the one experience, move it to the right side. And enable swipe gesture for it. It will work just like charms on phones and tablets, and on a desktop, the app will have the hamburger indicating there is a menu (erasing all the confusion which the charms bar led to in Windows 8 because of lack of indication). Keep the animation just like charms, bouncy, and we are good to go with hamburgers. This will make it Metro enough and will be familiar to desktop and Android or iOS users, if they picked up a Windows Phone and will lure them into owning one.
    02-13-2015 03:18 PM
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