02-23-2015 09:25 AM
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  1. tgp's Avatar
    Security doesn't sell.
    Exactly! Until reading this phrase right here, I thought I was the only person in history to say this on WCentral. While security indeed sounds like an important bullet point, users don't care about it. Windows on PCs are just like Android in mobile; almost all of the market share with almost all of the security breaches. And by nature the largest market will be the biggest target, hence the least secure statistically.
    02-14-2015 07:59 PM
  2. RumoredNow's Avatar
    well, you know

    sometimes people eat a icecream... or use umbrella, carry bags, hold a water bottle
    and umbrella? i drop and get wet?

    pathetic argument
    This is equally pathetic from the other side of the coin. Now we have to suppose that every able 2 handed individual will have one hand occupied at each and every moment they also want to use their smart phone?

    Look: I'm all for convenience and ergonomics - but a demand that everything be within reach of the average thumb span of users on a touch screen device is not just ignoring the other hand, it also ignores all the other digits of the one hand people are insisting is all they can afford to divert from other tasks...

    Would it be nice if one digit was all that was needed for operation? Sure. Should it be mandated into design? I don't think so.

    To presuppose that all operation of a smart phone will occur with one digit and no effort to reposition that one hand is patently absurd.
    rhapdog, ooklah and Praxius like this.
    02-14-2015 08:10 PM
  3. errole's Avatar
    This is cool
    02-14-2015 08:14 PM
  4. Charles Brown8's Avatar
    Well, my opinion is if you want to use a phone one handed then get a phone that fits your hand. That is why I have a Icon... I can use it one handed comfortably when I need to. The 1520 just didn't fit me when I tried it though I loved the bigger screen. The 930 was not available so Verizon got my business at the time.
    02-14-2015 08:43 PM
  5. Praxius's Avatar
    and umbrella? i drop and get wet?

    pathetic argument
    Use a jacket with a hood. I can't remember the last time I ever used an umbrella. I don't like having a hand occupied simply for holding something over my head, when I can pull a hood over my head and go about my day hands free.

    They take a hand to hold the whole time, they easily get destroyed by the moderate of winds and I can't count how many times I have been PO'd by some ***** on the sidewalk with a giant umbrella taking up most of the path with their umbrella. As I'm tall, the pointy ends of the rods holding the umbrella open are usually at my eye level and have had several umbrella wisk near my eyes or scratch me in the face.
    02-14-2015 08:49 PM
  6. Praxius's Avatar
    This is equally pathetic from the other side of the coin. Now we have to suppose that every able 2 handed individual will have one hand occupied at each and every moment they also want to use their smart phone?

    Look: I'm all for convenience and ergonomics - but a demand that everything be within reach of the average thumb span of users on a touch screen device is not just ignoring the other hand, it also ignores all the other digits of the one hand people are insisting is all they can afford to divert from other tasks...

    Would it be nice if one digit was all that was needed for operation? Sure. Should it be mandated into design? I don't think so.

    To presuppose that all operation of a smart phone will occur with one digit and no effort to reposition that one hand is patently absurd.
    For those people wanting to only have to use just a thumb and one hand for their phone, they should go and get a Blackberry Pearl or another old phone without touch screen tech.

    Think about it. They don't want to have to touch or reach to touch any of the top section of their screens. If that's the case then why have that area as a touch screen at all and why not just have it as a normal display area?

    If you do that then why not just go back to an old phone with a keypad and an old display where you can reach everything with one thumb?
    RumoredNow likes this.
    02-14-2015 08:59 PM
  7. raphok's Avatar
    Use a jacket with a hood. I can't remember the last time I ever used an umbrella. I don't like having a hand occupied simply for holding something over my head, when I can pull a hood over my head and go about my day hands free.

    They take a hand to hold the whole time, they easily get destroyed by the moderate of winds and I can't count how many times I have been PO'd by some ***** on the sidewalk with a giant umbrella taking up most of the path with their umbrella. As I'm tall, the pointy ends of the rods holding the umbrella open are usually at my eye level and have had several umbrella wisk near my eyes or scratch me in the face.
    great

    I will change my suit for a goretex jacket
    F3rzz, hprvez, theefman and 1 others like this.
    02-14-2015 09:00 PM
  8. F3rzz's Avatar
    The people defending the hamburger think they are so smart with their ten paragraph responses... But the truth is what they say doesn't makes sense or is really stupid, there's lots and lots of situation when one hand is inevitable occupied... "stop eating, drinking, holding bags, holding books, holding your kids"

    Are you even for real?... I really wish you are just trolling...
    hprvez, Kram Sacul, raphok and 9 others like this.
    02-14-2015 09:37 PM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    Exactly! Until reading this phrase right here, I thought I was the only person in history to say this on WCentral. While security indeed sounds like an important bullet point, users don't care about it. Windows on PCs are just like Android in mobile; almost all of the market share with almost all of the security breaches. And by nature the largest market will be the biggest target, hence the least secure statistically.
    *cough* so close to a like *cough*, but your last sentence killed it... you know why...
    02-14-2015 10:18 PM
  10. tgp's Avatar
    *cough* so close to a like *cough*, but your last sentence killed it... you know why...
    Sorry, I don't know why. I honestly have no clue what you're talking about. What's wrong with my last sentence? You'll have to explain it to me!
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    02-14-2015 10:38 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    Windows on PCs are just like Android in mobile; almost all of the market share with almost all of the security breaches. And by nature the largest market will be the biggest target, hence the least secure statistically.
    *cough* so close to a like *cough*, but your last sentence killed it... you know why...
    Sorry, I don't know why. I honestly have no clue what you're talking about. What's wrong with my last sentence? You'll have to explain it to me!
    Hmm... maybe I'm mistaken. Sorry, I thought we once discussed this via PM. Think of it as a cost-benefit equation:

    AOSP Android = very high benefit / medium cost. = 1.2
    Windows Desktop = high benefit / low cost. = 1
    WP = almost no benefit / very high cost. = 0.0001

    Market share can compensate for a low ratio, but only to a certain degree. It's certainly not the only measure of an ecosystem's vulnerability. That Windows Desktop and Android are similarly insecure is true. However, concluding from their shared popularity that those vulnerabilities are primarily a function of market share is a classic case of correlation without causation. Once a system is compartmentalized to the degree that even a successful infection doesn't lead to much of value, the prospect of infecting half a million devices loses most of its allure.

    WP is the only consumer OS (not only mobile OSes) that was designed from the ground up with security in mind. That's not a meaningless difference. Stated in plainer words:

    If 1000 people are coming for you with knives, you are free to prefer the small-target cardboard box for your protection, in exchange for only having to deal with four or five assailants. In such a situation I'll gladly take the large-target tank, even if that means facing the remaining 995.
    HaibaneReki and TechFreak1 like this.
    02-14-2015 11:44 PM
  12. Praxius's Avatar
    The people defending the hamburger think they are so smart with their ten paragraph responses... But the truth is what they say doesn't makes sense or is really stupid, there's lots and lots of situation when one hand is inevitable occupied... "stop eating, drinking, holding bags, holding books, holding your kids"

    Are you even for real?... I really wish you are just trolling...
    Great refute. One explains with a counter argument using common sense & logic and your response is they're stupid.

    *clap clap* bravo.

    If you are carrying a child or carrying groceries, or carrying books or eating a meal, what exactly is soooo important on your phone that you need to do it right then and there with one hand, using one thumb?

    Browsing your photo album which is where the menu is located?

    Don't you think that can wait??

    I suspect an argument will come where someone will say they're holding their baby and there's an emergency. Use the phone, call 911 or 000 or whatever it is in your country and do so... Hamburger menu not required.

    When you face a situation where one hand is the only option, think for a second. Is what you want to do that important that you need to do it right then and there or can it wait a couple of minutes?

    Or can you put your food down for a second and push the damn button? Put the books down?

    Is it really that important that you need to do what you need on your phone while holding your child that obviously needs your actual attention, which is why it is in your arms in the first place?

    Speaking as an actual parent and someone who has gone through all of your listed situations, your arguments are not really that good.

    But go ahead and counter by calling me stupid again. Cuz that wins arguments.
    Alain_A, xandros9, N_LaRUE and 2 others like this.
    02-15-2015 12:03 AM
  13. anon(8150199)'s Avatar
    Seems like using my phone left-handed only actually helps this time lol
    EssThree and M7H like this.
    02-15-2015 12:43 AM
  14. Didier3001's Avatar
    Will do more testing
    Last edited by Didier3001; 02-15-2015 at 04:28 AM.
    02-15-2015 04:15 AM
  15. tgp's Avatar
    Hmm... maybe I'm mistaken. Sorry, I thought we once discussed this via PM. Think of it as a cost-benefit equation:

    AOSP Android = very high benefit / medium cost. = 1.2
    Windows Desktop = high benefit / low cost. = 1
    WP = almost no benefit / very high cost. = 0.0001

    Market share can compensate for a low ratio, but only to a certain degree. It's certainly not the only measure of an ecosystem's vulnerability. That Windows Desktop and Android are similarly insecure is true. However, concluding from their shared popularity that those vulnerabilities are primarily a function of market share is a classic case of correlation without causation. Once a system is compartmentalized to the degree that even a successful infection doesn't lead to much of value, the prospect of infecting half a million devices loses most of its allure.

    WP is the only consumer OS (not only mobile OSes) that was designed from the ground up with security in mind. That's not a meaningless difference. Stated in plainer words:

    If 1000 people are coming for you with knives, you are free to prefer the small-target cardboard box for your protection, in exchange for only having to deal with four or five assailants. In such a situation I'll gladly take the large-target tank, even if that means facing the remaining 995.
    Not that security has anything to do with the OP, but I don't totally agree. We'll have to leave it there.

    We do agree that users in general don't care about security. So why does it matter if Windows (PC) and Android aren't as secure? I work in IT, and customers occasionally come in with PCs that have the FBI virus or the NSA virus or Cryptolocker. Too many of them have given credit card data or have lost their data to encryption. It sounds to me like an excellent reason to ditch all Windows PC and go Mac or Linux.

    Sounds different now, doesn't it?

    I have never in my life heard of someone who has been exploited from an Android device, even though it's way more numerous than Windows PCs. I have of course read about it, but never seen it personally. I bet nobody else here has either. I'm sure it happens, but I don't think it's nearly as big of a problem as haters would like to make it sound. Sure you can read about it all you want, either from sites promoting Microsoft or Apple, or from scaremongering security developer reports.

    Windows? I've seen it many times.

    Again, like we agreed, who cares?
    02-15-2015 06:55 AM
  16. raphok's Avatar
    02-15-2015 06:58 AM
  17. someone2639's Avatar
    02-15-2015 07:26 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar

    We do agree that users in general don't care about security. So why does it matter if Windows (PC) and Android aren't as secure? I work in IT, and customers occasionally come in with PCs that have the FBI virus or the NSA virus or Cryptolocker. Too many of them have given credit card data or have lost their data to encryption. It sounds to me like an excellent reason to ditch all Windows PC and go Mac or Linux.

    Sounds different now, doesn't it?
    Nope. Sounds exactly the same to me.

    I'm a fan of the technical concepts and foundation on which Windows Phone was built. Technically, I consider WP the best consumer OS ever made. The same can't be said for any of MS other OSes.

    So, who cares about security vulnerabilities? Like you said, nobody, until they get "hurt". Suffering can drive people away, but a promise of security won't lure anybody in. That's just how humans work.

    If viable smartphone alternatives exist, enough suffering will eventually lead to shifts in market share.

    So, I agree. Currently it doesn't matter. It would only matter in some regions, and even then only if WP or iOS represented viable alternatives. Currently they do not. We're making the same point, with a few differences around the edges. Nothing major.

    Anyway, I agree, let's get back on topic.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-15-2015 at 07:49 AM.
    tgp, anon(8150199) and TechFreak1 like this.
    02-15-2015 07:37 AM
  19. EssThree's Avatar
    Couple of things:
    1. The heatmap is just one a friend gave me. I actually use either hand when holding my smart phone, it just so happened that the one I was sent fit a right hand usage model.
    2. I don't think every smart phone OS should be 100% navigable with one hand/thumb. But I do think most standard functions should be able to be executed as such. I agree the photos app isn't critical, but it does represent a new design direction for Microsoft, so I think it is important to talk about this now before other apps are completely nailed down in design.
    3. I'm all for change, but only when it's for the better. In this case it feels more like change for the sake of change to be more like Android. I don't like Android. I don't think it's very user friendly, and I think people continue using it despite the arrangement of the UI, not because of it. The difference in UI is what made WP catch my eye in the first place.
    4. I don't think convenient UI design is catering to a "3%" of WP users. I've assisted my sister in setting up her iPhone 6. I've noted that a great portion of the apps on it have bottom-half UI elements (even the OneDrive app for iOS has its controls mostly near the bottom of the screen). It's doable, and accepted.
    5. I can think of a few reasonable one handed usage case scenarios (replying to text/searching directions/answering call/ while holding child/pet/hands full, using a device/tool/cooking with one hand while looking at directions with the other).
    6. I think voice control has come a long way, and really has made things a lot more simple. Hey Cortana is fantastic and will improve one/no handed operability a LOT. That said, there are still a lot of commands that aren't accessible via voice.
    7. I'm not against MS updating things. I gave the new XB Music/Video apps the benefit of the doubt when they were first release and they really grew into a pair of great apps (some more work could still be done, but for the most part I'm happy).
    8. I'm not crapping on Windows 10 mobile because it's different. I am really quite excited for Windows 10. The new features we've seen thus far are cool, and make it feel like the OS is becoming generally more powerful. I'm just concerned the changes they're making to UI are, to loosely quote, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    9. The title was just me being cheeky.


    I had other things to say, but they escape me right now.
    02-15-2015 08:43 AM
  20. RumoredNow's Avatar
    The people defending the hamburger think they are so smart with their ten paragraph responses... But the truth is what they say doesn't makes sense or is really stupid, there's lots and lots of situation when one hand is inevitable occupied... "stop eating, drinking, holding bags, holding books, holding your kids"

    Are you even for real?... I really wish you are just trolling...
    It's about habits really... I'm in the habit of using my phone with two hands. Always have been. I've adapted my grip to different devices and situations with those devices. I'm in the habit of not jumping on each ringtone or alert tone the moment it starts. I prioritize my life. I'm not in the habit of a Pavlovian response of instant answer to an electronic summons. It's my habit to wait for a pause in whatever else I may be doing before checking that alert or looking at who is calling/has just called. (Gestures Beta, BTW is too cool for that - NOT EVEN A THUMB TOUCH NEEDED to see/answer/silence as you want and I LOVE that... I'm NOT anti-convenience.)

    Yes... There are times when an alert is super-important, a call must be taken or placed or some other function accomplished right at that second and I may have one or both hands occupied. But due to my habits - the amount of instances where I feel compelled to operate my device with one digit or less is incredibly rare. I'm not constantly training myself on One Thumb use of the device so that my HABITS make everything else seem awkward and abnormal. And when those rare instances occur, I either adapt my physical method of use or force myself to prioritize, "this or the phone."

    Is it seriously anyone's contention that one thumb in a static grip is more effective and productive than two hands working dynamically together? But productivity is cited as a root need for this very often. Here's the rub, the problem with the "One Thumb MUST reach everything rule." What those proponents are advocating implies that everything on the device is important - so important it must be easily reachable and can not wait. What they are also implying is that it is not so important that they will set down a briefcase to answer that need.

    (The quote above mentions holding a kid. There's a brilliant example in favor of what I'M saying. Holding your kid is important. FAR more important than whatever is on your phone. Let the phone wait and comfort your kid or keep them safe by all means. Don't you dare try to answer a call from the President of the Galaxy with any amount of digits if it endangers your child in some way.)

    I'm not necessarily "pro hamburger" and never mentioned it in my previous posts in this thread. I'm not against convenience and ergonomics. I'll use them. I am against mandating that everything work with a static grip and one thumb reach. I've got small hands and a 6" screen phone. I know what I signed up for. You adapt yourself to the device and situation. It's no different with ANY SIZED screen. Having a larger screen does not increase the number of times you are forced to use it with only one thumb from a static grip position.

    You are insisting on a forced aesthetic with a less than 10% need to have scenario.

    Don't get in the habit of using your phone with a static grip and one thumb and you won't find it "essential." It will revert to being the luxury it should be prioritized as.
    someone2639 likes this.
    02-15-2015 10:02 AM
  21. someone2639's Avatar
    The people defending the hamburger think they are so smart with their ten paragraph responses... But the truth is what they say doesn't makes sense or is really stupid, there's lots and lots of situation when one hand is inevitable occupied... "stop eating, drinking, holding bags, holding books, holding your kids"

    Are you even for real?... I really wish you are just trolling...
    Well, if you can make a render of how you'd want it, I could change my mind...
    02-15-2015 10:33 AM
  22. anon(9057135)'s Avatar
    To be honest, I prefer the hamburger menu. But its just an opinion.
    02-15-2015 10:45 AM
  23. winth's Avatar
    I'm a 17 years old student and it's a fact that I am using my phone in every day life with one hand. For example when I talk with my friends and I want to send a message to my mother to take me home I don't have to take two hands. With flow writing and 4.7' display I don't need it. If someone uses two hands for his smartphone to check facebook or to write a message he is definitely 30+ years old.
    It's a fact that you should be able to use your phone with one hand, for browsing, calling, texting, etc.
    We all know that the problem exists! We have to thing about a possibility to make it easy to use and to have a nice design. I do prefer a nicer design, but they should keep an eye on the usability. Especially calling and so on.

    And when it's reading-I am freezing and I need someone to pick me up what shall I do-I need my umbrella and I need to call someone. It's obvious, why should we make every thing against usability, include both! So send this to Microsoft so they will rethink about it...

    P.S. Have you ever heard of a person, who cheats in a school test with two hands reading his phone-it's too stupid! 😉
    02-15-2015 10:51 AM
  24. todd7900's Avatar
    Except to the enterprise buyers. One thing MS is making pretty clear is that they are making a big play to get enterprise buyers to embrace the Win10 ecosystem. If they can get the large buyers to buy Win10 pc's, tablets, and phones, hopefully the users will then start to use the phone/tablet in their private lives too.
    02-15-2015 11:08 AM
  25. GrandGerminator's Avatar
    Why is it so hard for some people here to understand that's is just EASIER to user our phones with one thumb ?

    I just don't get the way where using two hands is better, until we are in landscape mode for pictures shooting and viewing. (I'm not talking about 1520 and 1320 in this message)
    The fact is that's easier using bottom icons and swiping to use it with one hand. And while using the phone one-handed it makes easier to do something else too.

    I don't get the argument that we need to use two hands because what we doing usually while typing with one hand is not important. Is that means that we only have to do important things in our lives ? When eating pop-corn watching tv do I have to take my two hands to delete a mail ? Really guys, be smart and clever.
    02-15-2015 01:02 PM
153 1234 ...

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