Flashings will make WP cross the 10% threshold - Lumia and Surface Phones

Jorge Holguin

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1) because people don't want to plug their phones into a dock, they want their phone AND their desktop.

2) pen. stylus. maybe in 2002. not in 2015.

3) you've missed my point about software. microsoft needs to be making software (APPS) for android and iphone. awesome apps. apps that other companies without the 20+ years of software development that microsoft has, can't do. windows 10 is not the end all answer. it's a pacifier on a timeline, another "wait and see in six months". it will not change the current mobile phone market share.

4) they WILL buy apps though. this is the only place microsoft can gain mindshare in mobile right now. NOT hardware. the hardware race was over years ago. the time to start on SOFTWARE for those devices was two years ago, but microsoft didn't recognize the shift.

5) "wait and see what ______ does !" marketing campaign ?

6) see 5. 'wait and see' is not going to improve a marketshare, a mindshare, or a profit margin.

7) again, the HARDWARE race is dead. microsoft could release an octa core 16Gb ram device with a 20 day battery life today... and it would not put a dent in the current mobile marketshare. people have their phones. they have their apps. they have it already, and aren't changing for a shrunken desktop in their pocket. the backlash from windows 8 and it's emphasis on change for the sake of change (the UI) should be enough proof.

8) i doubt that. microsoft is known for making sweetheart deals to put their software ahead of the competitions. this deal happened because blackberry had a better product, and nothing to do with the pricetag. use ford sync. read the forums of other people's gripes with microsoft's UI package for ford. simple changes were not addressed, and it was slooooow. blackberry is known for light overhead, and better UI design. they won the contest because of a better interface.

or, just look at what Tesla has done with car touchscreens. that's a first gen UI. microsoft can't best a startup car company (tesla) even on it's first gen software push ? this is telling. microsoft should have been scrambling to put their software in that car's dash, and fords, and chevys, and the 'flash' brands you mentioned earlier. tomorrows lexus should have a full dash UI that microsoft designed and implemented.

but it won't. microsoft will be saying "give us six more months"

1 - Option to the user.
2 - Check '1.'
3 - Although I agree MS should work harder into get the missing apps and get those already in the Store to have better quality. That is more into developer's hands.
4 - They will buy productivity apps, business don't care about FB, Twitter, Snapchap.... and MS has the best productivity apps.
5 & 6 - All three.
7 - Hardware is dead? Really? Just ask, Samsung, LG, Apple and so on... , why are they investing in new hardware? Hardware is essential in the mobile war. That is one of the reasons SP3 is doing good.
8 - Yes BlackBerry has good product but prices has lots to do with it. The deal save lot of money to Ford. Using QNX will be less expensive than licensing Microsoft technology

And I got a fix for your pain.... There is always a way out. :winktongue:
 

ohgood

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1 - Option to the user.
2 - Check '1.'
3 - Although I agree MS should work harder into get the missing apps and get those already in the Store to have better quality. That is more into developer's hands.
4 - They will buy productivity apps, business don't care about FB, Twitter, Snapchap.... and MS has the best productivity apps.
5 & 6 - All three.
7 - Hardware is dead? Really? Just ask, Samsung, LG, Apple and so on... , why are they investing in new hardware? Hardware is essential in the mobile war. That is one of the reasons SP3 is doing good.
8 - Yes BlackBerry has good product but prices has lots to do with it. The deal save lot of money to Ford. Using QNX will be less expensive than licensing Microsoft technology

9 And I got a fix for your pain.... There is always a way out. :winktongue:

1/2 ok

3 not windows phone apps. iphone and android apps. there a hundreds of millions of customers on iphone and android. MAKE MONEY OFF THEM buy selling them applications/software. yes, by all means write it for wp too, but go after the HUGE user base.

4a the other side of the coin.... people (the larger customer base than businesses) don't care about business apps. they want 'an app for that' and whatever 'that' is, the customer will pay $4-40 for the privilage without blinking. there are a LOT MORE THINGS to do than start a new spreadsheet.

4b businesses actually do care about facebook. thats why so many have a corporate presence on facebook. unfortunately, it's commonplace today.

5 i'm not sure what you meant by 'all three'.

6 ditto

7 MICROSOFT + mobile hardware = dead. yes, samsung, lg, and whoever else is selling 100 million phones a quarter isn't dead, but facing the music, microsoft knows hardware is not their best seller list right now. the hardware they make is fine, it's just not a place that is going to give a good roi. software, is a much better place to focus.

8 look at the reviews from customers, i find it hard to believe that microsoft wouldn't drop a billion to keep their name on the ford sync platform. i think this was ford just trying something new.

9 i'm not sure what this means.
 

colinkiama

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Lool you people are funny, a flagship would be perfect for windows 10. Surface phone hell yes. Windows 10 pc dock, hell yes! I don't understand why not, its actually something different from all the other phones out there. Why not throw in a kickstand and a type cover too? A flagship might not be bought the most but it gets people talking, eventually leading to people buying the cheaper phones, then eventually the flagship. Those of you who say flagship now probably don't understand that it would be useless. Windows phone in its current state is behind ios and android (yet again)
 

dave_456

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I don't think people that are against being able to dock the phone really understand what could be possible.

You don't have to physically dock the phone, you could connect to the larger screen though miracast. What should happen is the phone becomes a keyboard/trackpad/gamepad and the application become the tablet version of the application, for example you get the tablet version of office, not the phone version of office on the larger screen.

If you need to do lots of typing you can buy the Microsoft keyboard, or any other Bluetooth keyboard.

There is no reason an arm based phone cannot run tablet metro apps when connected to a big screen, the Lumia 2520 had a snapdragon 800 and ran Windows RT.
 

rhapdog

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1) because people don't want to plug their phones into a dock, they want their phone AND their desktop.
You act like you speak for everyone. You seem to have the attitude of many in the Apple Ecosystem... "Apple hasn't created it, so no one wants it." Until Apple finally falls in and does the same thing everyone else has been doing for years, and suddenly, "Look what Apple invented, no one ever thought of it." or "Apple is the one that did it right."

I for one WANT the docking. I want ONE DEVICE, not several that I have to copy files back and forth between the cloud or through cables. I know a LOT of people that want the same thing. For the most part, people who need a nice sized monitor on their desk but also have to take their business on the go want this. That's a large population waiting to be tapped. I realize not everyone will want to dock. A large number of people that use iPhones or other brand high-end flagships don't use a desktop or laptop at all, because they can't afford both. Something like this would make it affordable for those kind of people.

) pen. stylus. maybe in 2002. not in 2015.
That's your argument? in 2002 but not 2015? No reasoning? Does everything have to match a fad for you?

A little history... the reason a stylus was used in 2002 was because screens could not handle touch yet, because of the technology available. Now they can, and those that do normally cannot use a stylus. Those screens that can handle both touch AND a pressure sensitive pen are truly amazing. We aren't talking about the type of stylus you buy for your iPad, which is just an extension of your finger. We're talking about pixel accurate, pressure sensitive pens to give far greater power to the user by combining use of a pen and the power of the touch of your fingers.

There is so much you can do with a pen/stylus that you just can't do with a mouse or fingers on a touchscreen. Normal finger touch on a screen should remain dominant, but you need a pressure sensitive pen for more applications than I will bother to list here. Artistic drawing, CAD, and signing electronic receipts are just three examples where a finger isn't as good as a pen. If you really prefer a finger for those situations, I'll give you the finger. No, that didn't come out right... hehe.
4b businesses actually do care about facebook. thats why so many have a corporate presence on facebook. unfortunately, it's commonplace today.
While businesses want to have a presence on Facebook, they do NOT want their employees on it all day. What is meant by "businesses don't care about Facebook" is that they don't want an app for that. They would rather manage their Facebook from a desktop, not a phone app.
 

Jorge Holguin

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7) again, the HARDWARE race is dead. microsoft could release an octa core 16Gb ram device with a 20 day battery life today... and it would not put a dent in the current mobile marketshare. people have their phones. they have their apps. they have it already, and aren't changing for a shrunken desktop in their pocket. the backlash from windows 8 and it's emphasis on change for the sake of change (the UI) should be enough proof.

Here some concepts of great hardware.
Lumia%201530_2 (2).jpg
Limia%201530%20_3.jpg

And next to the iPhone it looks even greater.

L1520%20vs%20I6plus%20.jpg
http://forums.windowscentral.com/wi...m-devices/332976-lumia-1530-windows-10-a.html

So not Hardware is not dead. It's part of the life hood of any ecosystem.
 

ohgood

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1 You act like you speak for everyone. You seem to have the attitude of many in the Apple Ecosystem... "Apple hasn't created it, so no one wants it." Until Apple finally falls in and does the same thing everyone else has been doing for years, and suddenly, "Look what Apple invented, no one ever thought of it." or "Apple is the one that did it right."

2 i for one WANT the docking. I want ONE DEVICE, not several that I have to copy files back and forth between the cloud or through cables. I know a LOT of people that want the same thing. For the most part, people who need a nice sized monitor on their desk but also have to take their business on the go want this. That's a large population waiting to be tapped. I realize not everyone will want to dock. A large number of people that use iPhones or other brand high-end flagships don't use a desktop or laptop at all, because they can't afford both. Something like this would make it affordable for those kind of people.


3a That's your argument? in 2002 but not 2015? No reasoning? Does everything have to match a fad for you?

3b a little history... the reason a stylus was used in 2002 was because screens could not handle touch yet, because of the technology available. Now they can, and those that do normally cannot use a stylus. Those screens that can handle both touch AND a pressure sensitive pen are truly amazing. We aren't talking about the type of stylus you buy for your iPad, which is just an extension of your finger.

3c We're talking about pixel accurate, pressure sensitive pens to give far greater power to the user by combining use of a pen and the power of the touch of your fingers.

3d There is so much you can do with a pen/stylus that you just can't do with a mouse or fingers on a touchscreen. Normal finger touch on a screen should remain dominant, but you need a pressure sensitive pen for more applications than I will bother to list here. Artistic drawing, CAD, and signing electronic receipts are just three examples where a finger isn't as good as a pen. If you really prefer a finger for those situations, I'll give you the finger. No, that didn't come out right... hehe.

While businesses want to have a presence on Facebook, they do NOT want their employees on it all day. What is meant by "businesses don't care about Facebook" is that they don't want an app for that.

4They would rather manage their Facebook from a desktop, not a phone app.

1 no, just me. i don't know what is available on iOS or Apple. I do know that the docked phones sold in the past did not sell well. I was for the concept at the time, but soon realized that it was not a full desktop operating system, and pointless. just my personal experience.

2 desktops are cheap. it's not so much a factor in what you're saying as much as phones that can do so much today that desktops are not needed as much. sales slumps of desktops and skyrocketing phone sales seem to support this.

3a in 2002 the screens were poor quality, and the ui even worse. they dictated the need to use a stylus. in 2015 a stylus simply isn't needed for 99% of the use of a phone. if it were, we would see people buying them, and using them. I could quantify this more if you like, but I'm not sure what points you would need to hear.

3b agreement

3c agreement

3d agreement , until the last part about cad, on a phone screen? signing receipts is funny. I've found " Moby duck" or "captain Morgan" works for those receipts just as well as anything else.

4 understood

if you find a few tens of millions of people clamoring for dockable solutions for mobile phones, cash in hand, the manufactures may listen to you for a few minutes. then they'll be distracted by the CHA CHING of the cash register while another 20 million people sign on to the same designs the sold last month, and ask you what you were saying. just a prediction, but it's something you can try anyway.

I've been a fan of "more options, please!" like the docks you've mentioned for a long time. unfortunately my very specific needs are a drop off wine in a sea of whiskey.

I typed this while doing something I didn't think was ever going to be possible: washing my phone in the kitchen sink. I guess anything is possible.
 

rhapdog

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@ohgood: I think overall we're getting to the point that we're going to get along just fine. We'll just agree to disagree on certain points, but it's nice to have an open discussion without a bunch of cry baby name calling. Thanks for keeping the discussion legit on your end.

You said something, though, about how "dockable phones" didn't do well in sales in the past. I still don't think you fully understand what we mean by the type of docking we are talking about. There has never been a phone that docks in the way we are talking about, period, as the technology has not been available in the past. Technology is now there, but the differing technologies have not yet been set up to work together in order to accomplish such a docking. Would people want it? I can't speak of the masses, but I know a few people in my circle that would drool over the opportunity, including myself. I could easily justify it because I would no longer need to buy a laptop, desktop, phone combo. Just one device with a few peripherals, like monitor, mouse, keyboard, etc.

1 no, just me.
I only ask, then, that you indicate it is just you instead of making it appear as though you are speaking for everyone. Instead of saying, "Nobody", say, "I for one..." or, "The people I associate with...", or, "I read once where many people..." etc. It confuses some people, otherwise. Thanks.

3d agreement , until the last part about cad, on a phone screen? signing receipts is funny. I've found " Moby duck" or "captain Morgan" works for those receipts just as well as anything else.
As for signing receipts, yeah, you can scribble pretty much anything anyway. It will only be looked at if you dispute your purchase and the credit card company has to pull the image to compare the signature. Images aren't compared when you make a purchase, only when you file a dispute.

As far as CAD goes, yeah, it wouldn't be widespread use. However, there are CAD users out there that actually will use CAD on a 1520. They don't do a full design, but will pull their drawing from the cloud to show a client and make a few minor edits where necessary. I actually know a few. These same people that use CAD also use Excel and Word, but oddly enough don't use PowerPoint on the phone. I honestly don't know many people that do PowerPoint on a phone, unless they use it in conjunction with MiraCast, and only when they have a phone capable of full HD.

if you find a few tens of millions of people clamoring for dockable solutions for mobile phones, cash in hand, the manufactures may listen to you for a few minutes. then they'll be distracted by the CHA CHING of the cash register while another 20 million people sign on to the same designs the sold last month, and ask you what you were saying. just a prediction, but it's something you can try anyway.
I hope you don't mind if I don't go looking for the people. I'd rather spend some quality time at home with my children and my wife. Thanks. ;)

I typed this while doing something I didn't think was ever going to be possible: washing my phone in the kitchen sink. I guess anything is possible.
Isn't technology grand? That's another feature I think is important in a phone. If I did that with my L635, it would cease to work. I had a Bluetooth headset that was dropped into the deep end of a salt water swimming pool at 10 meters, and I didn't realize it for 45 minutes. I dove down, retrieved it, and it was still connected to my phone via Bluetooth. I was able to put in on my ear, still wet, and make a call. I would love to have a Lumia that could handle that. Sometimes I get caught in a rain storm, and would love to have waterproof Bluetooth headset and phone. My new headset isn't waterproof like my old one, and is one feature I miss, as I have to remove it and place it in safety when I have to go out in the rain.

Thanks for sharing that. It made me smile today.
 

Dr_8820

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If you go to XDA, this oh good person is the biggest troll on the planet, I usually keep him on the ignore list. He's been banned so many times from XDA that is actually funny that he decided to reside in the WP forums but only talks negative about the platform.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk
 

rhapdog

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Off Topic Warning

If you go to XDA, this oh good person is the biggest troll on the planet, I usually keep him on the ignore list. He's been banned so many times from XDA that is actually funny that he decided to reside in the WP forums but only talks negative about the platform.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

We're not on XDA. While I appreciate your helpfulness here, I prefer not to judge people on past behaviors if I'm able to help them to have a good discussion with me in the present. There has been no name calling, just a difference of opinion in discussion. That's what makes the world go around.

Some people will become trolls just because they are treated badly when they have a different opinion. I'm not saying that is what has happened, because I haven't been over at XDA forums in about 7 or 8 years. I just know I'm not treating him as a troll because he isn't currently acting like one. Also, he has been a member here since 2011 and has received thanks by people and given thanks to people. That shows that this person can be helpful.

I have several purposes in coming to these forums.
1. I like to learn what I can, which in some cases I see a question for help and do the research to find an answer (see #2). I learn a lot doing this.
2. I like to help people.
3. I get inspired by a few of the posts here. (not the "when denim" posts or "when in ____ (fill in random country)" posts. But some posts I find inspiring.
4. I enjoy the interaction and discussions, as they keep me sharp as I begin to age (hopefully with grace).

You can see by my post I even thanked ohgood for the manner in which he (I assume "he", I hope not wrongfully so) has conducted his end of the discussion. If he is trying to be a troll, then he isn't doing a very good job at it. :)
 

swedishdude

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned price....

If you have a phone that can double as a laptop, it really makes great economic sense. Buying a new laptop, tablet and phone every two-three years is kind of expensive!
 

rhapdog

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned price....

If you have a phone that can double as a laptop, it really makes great economic sense. Buying a new laptop, tablet and phone every two-three years is kind of expensive!

Exactly! Would you rather buy a phone for $1200 every 2 years? Or a phone for $600 and a laptop for $1200? Saving $600 every 2 years (just a wild guess here, but may not be far off for most people) is a big selling point. That's $25 every month I can put in my pocket for 2 years. That's dinner out with the wife once a month, which helps keep the relationship going. Okay, not by the time you factor in baby sitters and all, and wouldn't cover the entire expense of eating out even, but it's still a big help for budget minded people, especially when they get it on contract and don't see the expense up front.
 

Jorge Holguin

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Exactly! Would you rather buy a phone for $1200 every 2 years? Or a phone for $600 and a laptop for $1200? Saving $600 every 2 years (just a wild guess here, but may not be far off for most people) is a big selling point. That's $25 every month I can put in my pocket for 2 years. That's dinner out with the wife once a month, which helps keep the relationship going. Okay, not by the time you factor in baby sitters and all, and wouldn't cover the entire expense of eating out even, but it's still a big help for budget minded people, especially when they get it on contract and don't see the expense up front.

$600 or even $700 I buy two; my wife and me. I totally agree with your statement about price. Who knows we may be closer than we think.
 

yihong kang

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Docking is the future. Flagship phones are more powerful than a 10-year old desktop (probably even 5-year old desktop). If people can use those desktop (there are people who are still using those 10-year old XP desktop). If we have that kinds of power, why we still need two devices? What is holding the docking solution back is the OS. Until now (don't count win10), phone OS is totally different from desktop OS, they are designed to be single-task interface. Once the OS catching up (can dynamically adopt the screen size), docking solution will be more common. Just look how many people are docking laptops and tablets now (used to be impossible 10 years ago), then we can guess how many people are going to dock the phones in 5-10 years.

For me, probably we don't even need the phone. If technology (battery, cpu power, wireless docking and so on) allow someone to put the all the phone functionality into a smartwatch (or what ever wearable), then all we need is wearing a tiny computer. When we need a small screen on the go, we just wirelessly dock our tiny computer to a phone-size monitor, when we need a larger screen for work, just wirelessly dock our tiny computer to a desktop-size monitor.

Probably, we don't even need monitor, just hololens.

That is called future. Do not say something is no possible or no useful. It is not possible or useful just because time is not right.
 

swedishdude

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Actually, I saw a video on YT with a guy hooking up every peripheral you can think of, to a Samsung note 4. Harddrives, keyboard, mouse, big screen through miracast or cable....it all worked fine! So if you like Android, the future is already here.

Hopefully Microsoft will step up to the plate come September. A WP contender to the Note 4....something like that would be awesome.
 

Spectrum90

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I for one WANT the docking. I want ONE DEVICE, not several that I have to copy files back and forth between the cloud or through cables. I know a LOT of people that want the same thing. For the most part, people who need a nice sized monitor on their desk but also have to take their business on the go want this. That's a large population waiting to be tapped. I realize not everyone will want to dock. A large number of people that use iPhones or other brand high-end flagships don't use a desktop or laptop at all, because they can't afford both. Something like this would make it affordable for those kind of people.


Data belongs to the cloud. moving data physically on a device is archaic.

Nadella said they're working in the mobility of the experience not the mobility of a device.

The price of a docking station would be comparable to the price of a cheap PC.
 

yihong kang

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Actually, I saw a video on YT with a guy hooking up every peripheral you can think of, to a Samsung note 4. Harddrives, keyboard, mouse, big screen through miracast or cable....it all worked fine! So if you like Android, the future is already here.

Hopefully Microsoft will step up to the plate come September. A WP contender to the Note 4....something like that would be awesome.

It is possible to dock an android phone long time ago(moto atrix was the first one), the problem is the OS. Android is designed for phone with single task. When you dock a phone, and turn it into a desktop, you are expecting it to behave as a desktop (multi-task, floating windows, reasonable size UI), not just enlarged phone. Besides the OS problem, there is always app gap problem. Just like WP in phone market, or even much worse, android doesn't have any app designed for large screen (12 inch+).

Google and Microsoft agree with the future (one OS to rule it all), they are also both trying to do the same thing, just the opposite way (one from phone to desktop, the other is from desktop to phone). However, this is much more difficult for google, because the development of desktop programs are much more complex than the phone apps, and there is no good developing tools to take advantage of powerful intel core i CPUs.

Both windows 8 and android laptop proved that you can't use one interface for all devices. However, it is possible to use OS with different interface adapting different types of devices. Whoever can nail it first (nice interface, nice developing tools), who is going to win the next battle regarding the computing platform.
 

ohgood

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If you go to XDA, this oh good person is the biggest troll on the planet, I usually keep him on the ignore list. He's been banned so many times from XDA that is actually funny that he decided to reside in the WP forums but only talks negative about the platform.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk



Hmm, I don't recall seeing a ban notice from xda. Got a lot of great information , thanks, and likes from there about hardware hacks, software hacks, and in general, technology though. It's a GREAT resource for cross-platform information and news. Maybe you typed the username wrong ? I don't know how to find information about bans, or haven't looked for it myself. Even spent some money there. It's neato.

WPC on the other hand, yes, it seemed like a weekly thing. Say something even remotely negative, and there was an insta-ban. Any criticism of the platform, was usually handled that way instead of discussion being allowed.

Nowadays I watch the forums for information about releases, update cycles, and to see how wp is coming along. It's an interesting study. If a ban results from speaking my mind, oh well, it's just an internet forum.

Personally I haven't seen much iphone-fan-ism (or whatever it's called now) or android-zealotry in a year or so. People just kind of use their phones and 'meh' about comments that are pointier than needed.
 

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