07-10-2015 10:42 AM
89 1234
tools
  1. a5cent's Avatar
    Understood. Ignoring the sideways swiping in the linked solution (which I like, but fear could get complicated), I worry that it buries access to on-page commands.
    Yup, agree.

    I'm not sure I want to counter, but if I did I'd argue that page-level commands should be neither textual nor buried within a menu. That's what AppBarButtons are for. Of course we might need more than four buttons (rare but not impossible), in which case there is probably no way around popping open the ellipsis menu, but even then I'd say all page-level commands should consistently be represented with AppBarButtons, in this case with a second row of them at the top of the opened menu. That should cover 98% of all apps. When even that isn't enough however, as is the case with Office, that is when this concept is most closely aligned with what Microsoft's Office team is already doing. That is when it's most similar to where MS Office on smartphones is already headed.

    If I were MS, I'd specify that for almost all apps (apps like Office being the exception), the textual menu entries are reserved for app-level features and commands (like settings), and/or navigation. Currently no such guidelines exists, but you must admit that is already how the menu part of the AppBar is typically used. The "settings" entry is the most typical thing we can find in that menu, and that is definitely an app-level concept. If I were MS, I'd just make that existing tradition an explicit guideline and make it easy for developers to use the AppBar control in that way.

    IMHO that concept also gives us a clear delineation between page-level and app-level functionality (AppBarButtons vs. textual menu entries), without occupying more space on the bottom AppBar for a separate hamburger button. It also allows us to open the menu with a sloppy bottom-up-swipe anywhere on the AppBar, so we're not required to use specific touch targets to open one of two different menus.
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-14-2015 at 01:05 PM. Reason: spelling
    Kevin Rush and Laura Knotek like this.
    04-14-2015 10:07 AM
  2. Spectrum90's Avatar
    IMO, that's quite ugly, confusing and unusable. With that interface WP would fall somehow into negative market share.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-14-2015 10:23 AM
  3. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ Your baseless opinion, not to mention that ugliness is a subjective issue I have no interest in discussing. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

    Anyway, you're likely to hate Office on mobile in that case, since this concept and Office on mobile use the same basic idea.
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-14-2015 at 11:27 AM. Reason: last scentence
    04-14-2015 10:31 AM
  4. nohra's Avatar
    I think it would be great if they would use both. The hamburger button, but in my opinion on the bottom. And they should bring back the swipe so that you can use both of them.
    I agree. I understand the point of hamburgers (even though I don't care for them, I find myself usually wanting to hit [Back] to collapse them, but sometimes this instead exits the app), but on a phone it is simply more logical to have things at the bottom near a person's thumbs. There are ways to use both features as they both have benefits. I feel hamburgers are good for listing a lot of items in one screen view, an ellipse menu is better when you have a few items, app bars are nice for quick access to features or actions (like, create a new email, send email, search).
    sisqo88 likes this.
    04-14-2015 11:07 AM
  5. nohra's Avatar
    One of us is gravely misunderstanding something. Reading through this thread I don't see anyone claiming the OS, or more specifically the OSes UI, shouldn't evolve. Quite the opposite actually. Thinking the UI could evolve in a better way is not the same as thinking it shouldn't evolve at all.
    I see what you're doing; you're making sense ;-) A rarity in a topic that gets so much emotional responses from both sides!

    I am very much in the camp of liking the existing Windows Phone interface more than what Tech Preview has shown of the potential of W10 for phone interface, but I am certainly in agreement that there are many improvements that could be made to WP8.1. I also understand completely the desire for a unified interface across devices (even if I don't agree with it). I think Microsoft OS'd phone users (because I certainly want to avoid saying Windows Phone users) like improvements just as much as anyone else, but as with aesthetics, opinions on what are improvements differs. For some of us, having an interface that more resembles Android and IOS would be an improvement because maybe that's what they have used for years, while others prefer a mobile interface where actionable items are close to the bottom to be in easy reach while holding the phone with one hand. Both are totally valid and yet they are not mutually exclusive. Tech Preview is testing out some very un-Windows Phone interfaces, but I think the hope is that Microsoft will be able to marry the new things (hamburgers and universal appearance, for example) with some of the benefits that they already offer (swiping to change screen views and ability to have usable data on the Start screen, for example). Yes, it's not going to be Windows Phone, but Windows on a phone, but there's also no need for Microsoft to throw out the baby with the bathwater; I'm hopeful the finished product will be highly usable because otherwise the phone is never going to reach 10% or higher market share.
    04-14-2015 11:38 AM
  6. Spectrum90's Avatar
    ^ Your baseless opinion, not to mention that ugliness is a subjective issue I have no interest in discussing. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

    Anyway, you're likely to hate Office on mobile in that case, since this concept and Office on mobile use the same basic idea.

    In the concept, there are two tabs group in the same page, one for the app itself, another for the menu, that's confusing.
    The menu system is too deep, the user has to expand the three dots to get a menu, then click a tab to get another menu, and then finally click the command. Multi level menus aren't good for smartphones.

    The Office app has hundreds of features, I don't see tabs in the menus, but I see multi level menus. The menu system is like a mini app inside an app. I'm not 100% happy with that, but if they really want to provide all those features, I don't think there is a clean solution. I suppose the question is: do they really need to add so many features to the phone app? It's debatable.
    04-14-2015 12:02 PM
  7. Yazen's Avatar
    It is also hardly as if they have suddenly cloned Android. Windows 10 is still very distinctive and looks like an evolution of the OS, just with incorporation of familiar design elements. This is no different than IOS and Android adopting some flat design elements from Windows. Quite frankly, you keep the core and adapt elements that will make the OS more appealing to both users and developers, and that is precisely what they are doing. Seriously, how are they ruining Windows Phone by adding a few elements that make it more familiar to the OSs used on the vast majority of devices by the vast majority of users. Drop the ego and arrogance and accept that people do not secretly hate Android and IOS. Likewise, adding those elements facilitate universal app design. Everyone seemed so excited when they raised that concept but how did you think it would be achieved? Did you think they were going to make the Windows desktop experience a match for that which fits on screens the size of the palm of my hand?
    Sorry bro, I was not everyone. Nobody should have to be stuck using their pitiful "apps" on a desktop. The day I press calculator and get one of their "Universal Apps" is the day I remove my Windows partition lol.
    04-14-2015 12:11 PM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I don't understand this notion that using swipe gestures is "going Android". The only reason Android has swipes is because the father of webOS, Matias Duarte, is now head of Google Design. BlackBerry had swipes on the PlayBook before Android ever did and even iOS has some form of swipes.

    Y'all need to get past this infatuation with Android. They were hardly first with anything.
    04-14-2015 12:29 PM
  9. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I don't understand this notion that using swipe gestures is "going Android". The only reason Android has swipes is because the father of webOS, Matias Duarte, is now head of Google Design. BlackBerry had swipes on the PlayBook before Android ever did and even iOS has some form of swipes.

    Y'all need to get past this infatuation with Android. They were hardly first with anything.
    I agree! If something works well, why shouldn't it be implemented in multiple platforms? There are many Linux distros that have desktops that resemble Windows desktops.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    fatclue_98 and Jazmac like this.
    04-14-2015 12:34 PM
  10. TASWinFan's Avatar
    If only microsoft would put a design like this in the UI for small tablet editions and phone OShttps://windowsphone.uservoice.com/f...design-concept
    04-14-2015 02:00 PM
  11. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    A)
    I'm unconvinced that being more familiar to Android/iOS users is what's driving MS to make these UI changes. That's one of the most popular explanations floating around, but I just can't believe that MS' market research led them to conclude that WP would have more market share, had they only used more hamburgers and less pivots. No way...

    B)
    Whether or not WP is copying UI concepts from its competitors seems unimportant to me. IMHO MS should use what works best. However, I'm also of the opinion that the upcoming mix of app bars, pivots and hamburgers is not what works best (not to mention it being an inconsistent mess).

    C)
    Pivots are by far the most misunderstood UI control in the WP toolbox. Pivots were never intended to be used as a navigational "tool", yet many developers used them that way (due to a lack of simple alternatives), and users are now calling for that misuse to continue.

    I'm sure someone within MS has pointed out that the calls for the continued misuse of Pivots for navigational purposes is precisely one of the reasons they should be axed.

    The problem with Pivots is that they just don't work for apps that require navigational functionality, but simultaneously require swiping gestures for app related features. The W10M mail app is an example of that. Metro doesn't easily allow for both, but that is very common on Android. This is one of the reasons apps on WP are often less functional, compared to the competition. That's not surprising, considering an entire method of interaction is missing from WP. This is also why a configurable solution, where users could choose to use either hamburgers or pivots (based on personal preference) makes no sense... the two are completely different things, not two equivalent ways of solving the same problem:
    - would an app just lose the swiping related features when running in Pivot mode?
    - would a hamburger menu with 10 entries require me to swipe myself into an early grave when running in Pivot mode?
    - etc etc etc

    What WP needs is a standardized approach to navigation that:

    • is separate from and unrelated to pivots
    • allows apps to use gestures without compromising navigation
    • doesn't hide navigation behind invisible UI that is hard to discover (Android apps often employ edge swiping to open the hamburger menu)
    • allows the OS to automatically reconfigure the UI, without developer involvement, based on whether the app is running on large or small screens (which is the whole point behind the hamburger menu).
    • is consistent with the Metro look and feel
    • is optimized for one handed use

    Here is an example of what I'd consider a better solution:

    http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...psis-menu.html
    I have to disagree with your view on pivots in apps. I've never had a problem with them. What apps have you used would you consider problematic?

    I just don't see where the problem with what we have now (WP 8.1). Sure I've seen badly designed 3rd party apps but those are on every platform.
    04-14-2015 02:11 PM
  12. XXNUZ's Avatar
    If they made it so I could swipe, that would be great. Otherwise, it's fine.
    Sent from my green velociraptor running Windows Phone 10
    04-14-2015 05:43 PM
  13. Jazmac's Avatar
    A lot of people find it OK.
    And if you think it's "dumb" but aren't prepared to use it and send them constructive feedback, then after school you'd better head off down the mall and grab an Android or iPhone.
    Just because a design isn't to your taste, doesn't mean it's bad. I mean, I can't stand Bieber, but that's OK - I understand why kids might.
    The the absolute cleanest read ever.
    04-14-2015 08:48 PM
  14. Slovenix's Avatar
    Am I the only one here who would like to see full Windows and it's look on phones ?!
    Dreams from the time I got my first smartphone. Someday..

    Wouldn't be bad if Start screen went landscape either.. Cut down wallpapers in portrait mode ticks me off ;) :) but okay that would not work because of the tiles being cropped.. So why not add that third window on the left side of the Start screen and give us real Landscape wallpaper. It feels claustrophobic sometimes..
    Last edited by Laura Knotek; 04-15-2015 at 12:12 AM.
    04-14-2015 11:59 PM
  15. hotphil's Avatar
    I can see why some people might like a landscape start screen, but I reckon it'd be a particularly hard design task. For such a small screen, the transitioning between one and the other could be troublesome. And everyone will want it to be done in a smooth way. But "prioritising" which Tiles fit where when rotating between the two sounds like a challenge.
    That said, I've not seen how they do it on desktops (I lock my tablets to landscape). Might give it a whirl now and see what the process appears to be.
    Laura Knotek and Slovenix like this.
    04-15-2015 12:09 AM
  16. Slovenix's Avatar
    I can see why some people might like a landscape start screen, but I reckon it'd be a particularly hard design task. For such a small screen, the transitioning between one and the other could be troublesome. And everyone will want it to be done in a smooth way. But "prioritising" which Tiles fit where when rotating between the two sounds like a challenge.
    That said, I've not seen how they do it on desktops (I lock my tablets to landscape). Might give it a whirl now and see what the process appears to be.
    Try screenshots on the phone. Always looks nice to me.
    04-15-2015 12:59 AM
  17. Slovenix's Avatar
    Another dream is that we could use wallpaper and livetile background at the same time. I can already see the creativity.

    This wins me.
    04-15-2015 01:02 AM
  18. Protocol Rahul's Avatar
    Here's a thought for people who say swiping is not convenient or having a hamburger menu system is better then swiping:
    Why not, replace the whole swiping on the start screen ie, swiping from the right to open app view, by adding the hamburger to open the app view(have it placed any where you want).
    04-15-2015 03:56 AM
  19. madeinpda's Avatar
    O_o Metro is the MAIN reason for me to buy a windows phone. I like it..... Don't like it? don't buy it.
    04-15-2015 09:57 AM
  20. loribinca's Avatar
    I've seen enough of where windows is heading to know that I am going to be staying on 8.1 on all my devices. They're changing the design ethos too much.
    Kram Sacul, nohra and prasath1234 like this.
    04-15-2015 09:59 AM
  21. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    Here's a thought for people who say swiping is not convenient or having a hamburger menu system is better then swiping:
    Why not, replace the whole swiping on the start screen ie, swiping from the right to open app view, by adding the hamburger to open the app view(have it placed any where you want).
    Don't give MS ideas.
    04-15-2015 11:35 AM
  22. Pierre Blackwell's Avatar
    A lot of people make very good points. The whole purpose of these forums is to provide objectivity in a constructive, and cerebral manner, or at least try to. At the end a lot is predicated on a persons own view points, so with that I'll provide mine. MSFT is a business. We can all agree with that. They are still the leading software company, and one of the leading computer technological companies. This isn't something that has happened by mere happenstance. Calculated, metric and monetary decisions have been made to maintain that foothold. With that being said, while the market share statistics are encouraging in Europe, and some growing markets, they're not oblivious to the 3% market share value in the country that the hub of the business resides in. MSFT is knows that it's incumbent to get developers onboard with supporting their brand, but it's the brand of Windows, because they've shuddered at the mention of Windows phone. Developers are going to gravitate to where the masses congregate because that usually results in more revenue. So with that being said, it would only make sense to adopt more of a PC/laptop/tablet UI interface since those are the areas where MSFT still dominate, or are increasing in popularity across the board. While I agree with many of you about the UI changes, many of us are using the same UI outline on a PC or laptop and aren't complaining about that. I would like to see MSFT create an option for the mobile iteration of Windows 10 that allows you to slide the task bar so it doesn't have to stay at the top of the screen. I don't mind the lack of panoramic or pivot capability, because it's a matter of what you're used to. Again, we're familiar with the functionality of the applications, just not from a mobile device. Through repetition, like anything else we will become familiar. I think MSFT is doing the right thing from a business perspective, while not completely compromising what we have grown to love about what the UI interface provides. I love the outlook and calendar conversion. I can get past the circles. I love the Skype integration with the messaging app, and the people hub/contacts will only get better.

    In retrospect, we also have to remember that this is by no means the final build and many of these applications in their current state are going to have many changes. I think when everything is said and done the majority of us will be satisfied with the majority of the finished product.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-15-2015 11:35 AM
  23. Jazmac's Avatar
    I've seen enough of where windows is heading to know that I am going to be staying on 8.1 on all my devices. They're changing the design ethos too much.
    Change is difficult for a lot of people in the computer game. Don't jump until you're prepared to advance to the next level.
    04-15-2015 12:01 PM
  24. loribinca's Avatar
    Change is difficult for a lot of people in the computer game. Don't jump until you're prepared to advance to the next level.
    I don't understand your comment. I feel that MS are slowly changing everything that was unique and differentiating to owning a windows phone. its slowly becoming a 'me too' device - to me it's losing it's character and charm .. to me, it's like an indie band you like 'selling out' ..

    This is my personal opinion, but from what I've been reading in several places, its an opinion shared by many.
    nohra, Kram Sacul and prasath1234 like this.
    04-15-2015 12:47 PM
  25. Jonnie LasVegas's Avatar
    I've been one of the biggest detractors of WP10 (I call it that for simplicity and my sanity. What is with the awful naming popping back up at Microsoft, lol). But after accidentally installing it, yes accidentally long story, I love it! Even the design elements changing haven't ruined it for me. Yes much of it is still raw and needs refinement, but it's also refreshing. The new functionalities it brings make it fun and new again. And the transitions from metro to the new design aren't as jarring as expected. With exception to the people hub, which is a mess. I feel Microsoft might finally have a winner with this OS.
    I also found I love providing feedback, feels good to help shape things and to let them know what they've got right as much as wrong.
    Laura Knotek and fatclue_98 like this.
    04-15-2015 01:26 PM
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