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07-10-2015 10:42 AM
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  1. Anubis4574's Avatar
    Let me start by saying that I've owned Windows Phones for years as well as developed apps leisurely. I love Microsoft and WP, as well as many of the directions 10 is taking...with the glaring exception of UI. So, here are my two cents:

    App Bar, Panorama, and Pivot. These amazing and unique Windows Phone continuities are now at risk for the future of the OS. This is evident, specifically in all of the new applications for Windows 10 for Phones (10051).

    Let's start with App Bar. There have always been three dots which can be either tapped or swiped up in order to see more settings and other contextual 'buttons.' A subtle change they have made is making the three dots a physical button that can only be tapped and not swiped (which is the far easier approach).

    Next is Panorama and Pivot. Look at the new apps Phone, Calculator, Onedrive, Photos, and the Outlook pair of apps. The Phone app is especially painful to use because of the three 'tabs': History, Speed Dial, and Dial Pad. Your instinct is to swipe from left to right in order to reach the second and third tabs, but this has been intentionally disabled. They want you to tap the tiny little icons at the top, just like an Android app. Speaking of the competitor OS, A hamburger menu has been added to most new apps (and a few new old ones, like OneDrive).
    The Photos application is now almost entirely useless because you cannot swipe in between folders (and the same goes for the new Photo picker API).

    Not a single new application in the preview can be swiped from left to right.
    This should be hugely alarming to all veteran WP users and we must rally against such an obvious departure to what we recognize as Windows Phone.

    Counterargument: "This is merely an early preview and these new changes are not likely to stay". Not unless we are sufficiently vocal about it. The team spent time designing a hamburger menu and messing with the controls. I do realize that UI wasn't their biggest priority on this build, but they could have easily just used the older Pivot controls that were already available with no extra time or thought needed. Every design change they have made has taken WP closer to its competitors in a last-ditch effort to make potential consumers more acquainted with the platform.

    tl;dr: Microsoft has dumbed-down the UI of WP10 to make it much easier to pick up for Android and iOS users. But in the process, they have made it absolutely terrible from a UX standpoint.
    Last edited by Anubis4574; 04-13-2015 at 11:16 PM.
    04-13-2015 10:43 PM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I just don't see Windows 10 Technical Preview for phones as a copycat of Android, and I'm using Android Lollipop now.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    Guytronic, k0de, Slovenix and 7 others like this.
    04-13-2015 11:08 PM
  3. Anubis4574's Avatar
    WP10's app model may not necessarily be more like Android, but it definitely is a lot less like Windows Phone.
    a5cent, Kram Sacul, Joe920 and 9 others like this.
    04-13-2015 11:15 PM
  4. PepperdotNet's Avatar
    Agreed, why can they not add the new stuff without breaking the old. Put a hamburger and tabs on there if they like, but leave the pivots and appbar there too. Put toggles in settings so we can choose which is more visible.
    jlzimmerman, ven07, F3rzz and 1 others like this.
    04-13-2015 11:23 PM
  5. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    Unfortunately MS' design team has lost it. It started slowly with some idiotic changes in 8.1 and became really obvious with the mangling of the WP OneDrive app. Now with the TP they've gone full Android. Not Android now but Android circa 2011. Never go full Android.

    If the W10 TP wasn't an unstable mess I'd be using it and sending feedback about all these dumb and backwards changes. I don't expect them to listen though. They seem determined to throw out all that was unique about WP for their one UI fits all mentality which includes shoehorning a hamburger menu into every app and shoving the controls to the top.
    04-14-2015 12:15 AM
  6. k0de's Avatar
    WP10's app model may not necessarily be more like Android, but it definitely is a lot less like Windows Phone.
    What is a lot less like Windows Phone?

    Understand there is no longer Windows Phone. But Windows for Phones. Going forward its a UAP. Its Windows on every device imaginable to mankind. So do yourself a favor and delete the old WinPhone design language in your brain.
    04-14-2015 12:31 AM
  7. hotphil's Avatar
    If the W10 TP wasn't an unstable mess I'd be using it and sending feedback about all these dumb and backwards changes. I don't expect them to listen though.
    A lot of people find it OK.
    And if you think it's "dumb" but aren't prepared to use it and send them constructive feedback, then after school you'd better head off down the mall and grab an Android or iPhone.
    Just because a design isn't to your taste, doesn't mean it's bad. I mean, I can't stand Bieber, but that's OK - I understand why kids might.
    Joshwin, fatclue_98 and ven07 like this.
    04-14-2015 12:55 AM
  8. cory1717's Avatar
    They need to corporate the old and new ! N my opinion
    nohra, Ek-Balam and Snowy Nokia like this.
    04-14-2015 01:01 AM
  9. sisqo88's Avatar
    I think it would be great if they would use both. The hamburger button, but in my opinion on the bottom. And they should bring back the swipe so that you can use both of them.
    nohra likes this.
    04-14-2015 01:16 AM
  10. GrandGerminator's Avatar
    A lot of people find it OK.
    And if you think it's "dumb" but aren't prepared to use it and send them constructive feedback, then after school you'd better head off down the mall and grab an Android or iPhone.
    Just because a design isn't to your taste, doesn't mean it's bad. I mean, I can't stand Bieber, but that's OK - I understand why kids might.
    Sorry hotphil, but no.
    Bored to read that kind of things. We're here because we have a WP and we did not buy a Android or a iPhone so STOP to start childish talks. The design is a real problem in Windows 10 for phones. Pivots can be found in some Android apps and hamburger buttons are even disappearing, but W10 for phone is coming where Android were 3 years ago. Too late, again
    04-14-2015 01:30 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    A)
    I'm unconvinced that being more familiar to Android/iOS users is what's driving MS to make these UI changes. That's one of the most popular explanations floating around, but I just can't believe that MS' market research led them to conclude that WP would have more market share, had they only used more hamburgers and less pivots. No way...

    B)
    Whether or not WP is copying UI concepts from its competitors seems unimportant to me. IMHO MS should use what works best. However, I'm also of the opinion that the upcoming mix of app bars, pivots and hamburgers is not what works best (not to mention it being an inconsistent mess).

    C)
    Pivots are by far the most misunderstood UI control in the WP toolbox. Pivots were never intended to be used as a navigational "tool", yet many developers used them that way (due to a lack of simple alternatives), and users are now calling for that misuse to continue.

    I'm sure someone within MS has pointed out that the calls for the continued misuse of Pivots for navigational purposes is precisely one of the reasons they should be axed.

    The problem with Pivots is that they just don't work for apps that require navigational functionality, but simultaneously require swiping gestures for app related features. The W10M mail app is an example of that. Metro doesn't easily allow for both, but that is very common on Android. This is one of the reasons apps on WP are often less functional, compared to the competition. That's not surprising, considering an entire method of interaction is missing from WP. This is also why a configurable solution, where users could choose to use either hamburgers or pivots (based on personal preference) makes no sense... the two are completely different things, not two equivalent ways of solving the same problem:
    - would an app just lose the swiping related features when running in Pivot mode?
    - would a hamburger menu with 10 entries require me to swipe myself into an early grave when running in Pivot mode?
    - etc etc etc

    What WP needs is a standardized approach to navigation that:

    • is separate from and unrelated to pivots
    • allows apps to use gestures without compromising navigation
    • doesn't hide navigation behind invisible UI that is hard to discover (Android apps often employ edge swiping to open the hamburger menu)
    • allows the OS to automatically reconfigure the UI, without developer involvement, based on whether the app is running on large or small screens (which is the whole point behind the hamburger menu).
    • is consistent with the Metro look and feel
    • is optimized for one handed use

    Here is an example of what I'd consider a better solution:

    http://forums.windowscentral.com/win...psis-menu.html
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-14-2015 at 10:13 AM. Reason: slight clarifications throughout
    04-14-2015 01:47 AM
  12. hotphil's Avatar
    Sorry hotphil, but no.
    Bored to read that kind of things. We're here because we have a WP and we did not buy a Android or a iPhone so STOP to start childish talks. The design is a real problem in Windows 10 for phones. Pivots can be found in some Android apps and hamburger buttons are even disappearing, but W10 for phone is coming where Android were 3 years ago. Too late, again
    Well I agree. I was rocking Windows Mobile 6.x when Apple turned up with a UI that worked. Without a stylus. MS have been playing catch up ever since. But perhaps the time of being different just for the sake of being different is coming to an end. If something's the best way of doing something, then ignoring it and doing something else just to be different is foolhardy.
    Laura Knotek, ven07 and TheCudder like this.
    04-14-2015 01:50 AM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    But perhaps the time of being different just for the sake of being different is coming to an end. If something's the best way of doing something, then ignoring it and doing something else just to be different is foolhardy.
    Agreed. But I'd also argue that being different just for the sake of it is a mischaracterization of Metro. As the W10M UI discussion started to heat up, many people on these forums were surprised when they realized just how much thought went into designing the Metro phone UI... thoughts that were intended to make using WP intuitive, finger-stretch-free, and consistent... not just different.

    When I say Metro is better than where the W10M UI is headed, I mean the concepts and guidelines behind Metro, not necessarily its implementation on WP. When implemented well, those concepts resulted in a really nice UX on the phone. Navigation is the one big huge gaping hole. For many apps, Metro has nothing to offer in this department, neither in terms of implementation nor even conceptually.

    The solution is not to throw out the entire UI paradigm and start anew (Microsoft's biggest problem whenever a new team takes over an existing project), but to work on those missing concepts and to fix those implementations that were poor (make it harder to misuse UI controls in a way they weren't intended to be used, and easier to use them correctly).
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-14-2015 at 02:57 AM. Reason: spelling
    04-14-2015 02:42 AM
  14. Spectrum90's Avatar
    I like the changes. Microsoft is finally developing a smartphone, not an improved feature phone.
    Metro has too many flaws. I think Microsoft underestimated the role of the smartphone in people's life. Under pressure they rushed a weak product to market, based in wrong assumptions.

    Many people here hate Android, but Android is what Windows Phone should have been. Metro a huge departure from Windows and Windows Mobile, in a wrong direction.

    It took them five years to ditch Metro. With hindsight it's easy to say that they should have canceled Windows 8 and WP8 to do what they're doing now.
    ven07, TheCudder and prasath1234 like this.
    04-14-2015 06:39 AM
  15. manicottiK's Avatar
    When I say Metro is better than where the W10M UI is headed, I mean the concepts and guidelines behind Metro...those concepts resulted in a really nice UX on the phone. Navigation is the one big huge gaping hole. For many apps, Metro has nothing to offer in this department, neither in terms of implementation nor even conceptually.
    Agreed. But how does the proposed solution (A concept for combining hamburger and ellipsis menu) address navigation at all? It seems to be a more full-featured commands area.

    For what it's worth, I believe that Apple's tab bar is always supposed to go at the bottom of the screen. (Note: all of the blue text below is copied from Apple's iOS guidelines, however, the emphasis is mine.)

    Apple starts off with a clear definition of what a tab bar should be and it sounds very much like the navigational function of the Splitview/hamburger control: You use tab bar controller to organize your app into one or more distinct modes of operation. However, other pages start to muddle that, just as pivots got muddled in WP: A tab bar gives people the ability to switch between different subtasks, views, and modes. Then, they seem to embrace the views and modes duality: Use a tab bar to display several peer categories of content or functionality.

    Apple also has something called a segmented control. It's placed as the top of a screen and appears to be Apple's equivalent of what Microsoft intended pivots to be. A segmented control can give users a way to see different categories or aspects of the content on the screen; it doesn’t enable navigation to a new screen.

    Both Apple and Microsoft appear to have a problem with their controls being "misused" by developers looking for a way to group related content that doesn't involve navigation. How does one define a set of controls and the accompanying UX to simplify navigation among distinct modes of operation, facilitate switching between different views of data, and the display of groups of related content?
    a5cent and ven07 like this.
    04-14-2015 06:57 AM
  16. Tsang Fai's Avatar
    "The Phone app is especially painful to use because of the three 'tabs': History, Speed Dial, and Dial Pad. Your instinct is to swipe from left to right in order to reach the second and third tabs, but this has been intentionally disabled. " - Well, it is a matter of your habit. I was an iPhone user before. Just switched to Windows Phone for less than two months. To me, swiping from left to right is not my basic instinct - my basic instinct is to tap the tabs near the top of the screen. (Well, we have been using this kind of UI in Windows desktop... isn't it?)

    Even if we forget the habit perspective, I still like tapping on tabs more than swipping, because the app itself may take advantage of using swiping (leftwards or rightwards) to do meaningful actions - I think the most useful one is swipe to delete. I don't care whether swipe to delete is used by ios/android, as not as it is a good thing, I don't mind msft to follow some good features of the competitors.

    I think WP 10 focuses more on potential users rather than existing users. Again, it's a matter of habit. For those who have used WP for several years, I believe they will get used to those new UIs soon.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-14-2015 07:20 AM
  17. FAHMI BASSEM's Avatar
    My opinion:
    I don't like the UI of WP 10 (yes WP 10), everyday when I look at my Lumia, I feel sad that what I loved will be killed for no real reason, if I made a poll (and I will) about whether you like our don't like the UI of WP 10, most of the fans (not those who bought it because it's cheap) will say no, we don't like it, because simply, MS is killing WP, integration of social networks, rooms, and now the three dots and swiping gesture.
    Sorry, but for me Windows phone 10 is a loss :-(
    04-14-2015 07:29 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    Agreed. But how does the proposed solution (A concept for combining hamburger and ellipsis menu) address navigation at all? It seems to be a more full-featured commands area.
    Yup, Apple and Microsoft both appear to have a problem with their controls being "misused" by developers. I think Apple is further along than MS is however. Their guidance is a bit vague and admittedly somewhat contradictory, but at least they provide more concrete software constructs to get the job done in a standardized way.

    Anyway, to your question... how does the proposed solution address navigation at all?

    In the exact same way a side drawer does. Panning that menu into view is just triggered and opened from the bottom, rather than being triggered from the top (hamburger button) and opened from the side (side drawer). More importantly, it addresses all the issues I listed at the end of my previous post.

    To me the answer to your question seems so obvious, that I think we might be miscommunicating. Just to make sure we agree on our terminology:

    Navigation = switching between unrelated and distinct modes of operation.

    Switching between views, applying filters or sorting (or as Apple calls it, "seeing different aspects of content on screen...") are not navigational concepts, and therefore not what the solution I linked to is trying to solve. That's all about providing a navigational solution that is better than the traditional hamburger menu.
    04-14-2015 07:51 AM
  19. Slovenix's Avatar
    I just don't see Windows 10 Technical Preview for phones as a copycat of Android, and I'm using Android Lollipop now.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    That's what I'm saying all the time. All the "Looks like Android" is getting seriously old and misleading
    04-14-2015 07:59 AM
  20. xandros9's Avatar
    It looks like its taking off after Windows 8 on the PC instead.
    Laura Knotek and ven07 like this.
    04-14-2015 08:22 AM
  21. DCTF's Avatar
    I think the swiping thing created a visual problem. Designers, including MS's own, were inclined to separate categories into pages and have us swipe between them but there was rarely enough info on each page to justify the principle. I found the large text sizes and poor use of white space endemic in WP to look pretty goofy, to be frank.

    I like tight, appropriate detail and good use of proportion. I like the kinds of things I'm seeing in the desktop W10 and I think WP10 is going in the right direction too. I don't feel like we've seen the unified design yet, and of course we won't until the remnants of W8.1 are gone and the app designers get to work with the philosophy of this OS being a new generation.
    04-14-2015 08:46 AM
  22. prasath1234's Avatar
    I think no point in debating this ux concept.It is very sad to see MS going android way.Let's wish them success by this way.I hope wp new ui gains familiarity with world nd it gains decent market share.And that leads to some app nd game development.
    04-14-2015 08:47 AM
  23. manicottiK's Avatar
    Switching between views, applying filters or sorting (or as Apple calls it, "seeing different aspects of content on screen...") are not navigational concepts, and therefore not what the solution I linked to is trying to solve. That's all about providing a navigational solution that is better than the traditional hamburger menu.
    Understood. Ignoring the sideways swiping in the linked solution (which I like, but fear could get complicated), I worry that it buries access to on-page commands.

    I proposed (in windowscentral or reddit, I don't recall) the idea of having the hamburger icon at the left edge of the app bar. The ellipsis could open the on-page commands while the hamburger would open the navigational commands. Indeed, the new rightward alignment of the app bar buttons reinforces/delineates what's page-level and what's app-level.

    Although putting the hamburger at the left of the app bar takes away the either-side capability of the ellipsis, few people even know that tapping on the far left of the app bar opens it, so its loss would have a fairly low incidence of end-user impact in the real world.

    One could also combine these so that both popups had pivot-like controls. The page-level stuff probably wouldn't need it, except in complex apps like Office. The app-level stuff could have panels for major sections, settings and other crud, etc. I sort of like it. How would such a control render and what UX would be involved in using in tablet, laptop/desktop, and xbox console modes?
    a5cent and ven07 like this.
    04-14-2015 08:58 AM
  24. stephen_az's Avatar
    Every time I see one of these self important "I know everything" posts decrying the abandonment of what someone loved about Windows Phone, I wonder how much people actually know about silly little things like business, market share, and product design. Windows Phone, in its current iteration, did not gain traction in the markets on the planet that matter most - that is simply a fact of life. The same is true of the other OS (BB 10) that emphasized a different approach to user interaction. How much evidence does anyone need to understand that the people who make up the markets have not embraced the OS in its current form? To not evolve is to embrace extinction.

    It is also hardly as if they have suddenly cloned Android. Windows 10 is still very distinctive and looks like an evolution of the OS, just with incorporation of familiar design elements. This is no different than IOS and Android adopting some flat design elements from Windows. Quite frankly, you keep the core and adapt elements that will make the OS more appealing to both users and developers, and that is precisely what they are doing. Seriously, how are they ruining Windows Phone by adding a few elements that make it more familiar to the OSs used on the vast majority of devices by the vast majority of users. Drop the ego and arrogance and accept that people do not secretly hate Android and IOS. Likewise, adding those elements facilitate universal app design. Everyone seemed so excited when they raised that concept but how did you think it would be achieved? Did you think they were going to make the Windows desktop experience a match for that which fits on screens the size of the palm of my hand?

    As for the thing that people seem to obsess about on a regular basis, hamburger menus have become a common design element in both OSs and web design and little dots and swiping have not. What is intuitive for a handful of people on devices with a tiny market share is not intuitive for the rest of the world. Those hamburger menus are also expanding in use, not contracting. BTW, Microsoft is probably the entity most responsible for the acceptance of top down menus since, leaving aside placement of start buttons and task bars, top down has been the structure of every Windows application since Windows 3.x. Top down is familiar to people and it is not changing. Perhaps on that front WP purists and BB10 users should hold a giant pity party to decry how everyone else on the planet is less sophisticated than themselves.

    Finally, the call for Microsoft to offer both the current form and new form requires a suspension of disbelief to be taken seriously. All that amounts to is an embracing of OS bloat and, unlike Windows desktop OSs, there is not a 90+ percent market share calling for that legacy support. People implying (and insisting) that is what they should do simply further demonstrate why they shouldn't have let the masses of technically unskilled types into the testing program. Go ahead and rally to save whatever you think is so vital but the fact is the vast majority of users will accept changes within an hour or two of upgrade to the final and people who do not use the OS will see things they understand....
    Spectrum90, DCTF, ven07 and 3 others like this.
    04-14-2015 09:44 AM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    Windows Phone, in its current iteration, did not gain traction in the markets on the planet that matter most - that is simply a fact of life. The same is true of the other OS (BB 10) that emphasized a different approach to user interaction.
    One of us is gravely misunderstanding something. Reading through this thread I don't see anyone claiming the OS, or more specifically the OSes UI, shouldn't evolve. Quite the opposite actually. Thinking the UI could evolve in a better way is not the same as thinking it shouldn't evolve at all.
    04-14-2015 09:51 AM
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