04-28-2015 07:41 AM
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  1. DCTF's Avatar
    as far as that goes ... long ago (Windows 3.0 or before) MS trained users how to interact w computers ...
    & everyone else followed suit.
    In fact, at the time Microsoft got a lot of stick for having stolen the early Windows concept from Apple's Macintoshes, but people forget that!

    .
    I think you and the OP are making the common mistake of looking at an online community of hundreds/thousands of people and visualising it as a single entity. Who is this "you"? Who called out the "iSheeps"? I don't see many people doing that, and nobody who does that speaks for me.

    It's not as if Microsoft is just throwing darts at the wall. When they say their research bears these decisions out, they mean that. This is WP's best shot of success, you are not correct, and the recent years of unique test features have not made the OS a contender in the market. We all amplify the opinions we see that chime with ours and diminish the ones that oppose us, but market research is the only reliable yardstick (not infallible, but the most reliable).

    Windows has great strengths as a mobile OS. The things that make my friends express interest are things like the Start screen, where I can completely transform the look and feel of the phone in seconds and have it feel new. They're envious of the longevity of the system, where I can be using my flagship from two and a half years ago and it's still supported so well as to be competitive in the current market (whereas their phones' manufacturers have pretty much forced them onto one or even two new handsets in that time) and still have life ahead of today. Those are the things that matter - not being so divergent that your phone is unintuitive to the uninitiated.
    Tien-Lin Chang and aximtreo like this.
    04-18-2015 03:39 PM
  2. Ma Rio's Avatar
    The reason why I said you is not because I think everyone else that doesn't agree with me is one group that doesn't matter to me,
    it is because I don't want to make a list of people who actually are fanboys and who actually do call out iSheeps (and don't worry, there's A LOT of them).

    And also don't forget that Microsoft is a company, and as a company they need money. So they won't be going towards a good OS that really rocks and makes the consumers happy, they'll be going towards anything that grants them money. I am sure they would destroy everything they've build till now only if it would give them +10% market share. And it's been proven so many times that it's not always what's the most popular that's the best.
    wpn00b likes this.
    04-18-2015 03:56 PM
  3. stephen_az's Avatar
    Yeah, I think you're right. Its the lack of hamburger menus that makes the WP Skype client so slow and lacking features, the inability to edit forwarded emails or reply with anything other than a picture, explains the lack of smart dialing, makes MS services crap outside the US, lack of led notifications, and even explains why WP's backup is so poor you lose data every time you hard reset. Yes, moving to the hamburger menu will fix all of these..... /s



    Yes, not going with Metro would have fixed all the things I mentioned, not Microsoft actually paying some attention to their own platform....
    Sarcasm is used at times when someone can't defend their position but 1) will not accept the alternative and 2) isn't satisfied with simply saying nothing. The story is not about any other features - it addresses one thing and does so in a logical and intelligent manner. How about sticking to the topic at hand or is it just that you have no response on this subject and feel the need to shift to alternate bits of whining?
    04-18-2015 04:28 PM
  4. stephen_az's Avatar
    I really wish people would drop these silly images. They are not based upon statistically valid data. Beyond that reality, they do not take into account actual patterns of usage as described in the article (which are based upon user studies). Something may be "perfect" for one handed use (or not as the case may be) but it is irrelevant if actual studies demonstrate that is not how people use the devices in the real world. Perhaps the three percent crowd may want to consider that the 90+ percent aren't complaining bitterly about IOS and Android UI/UX. I would suggest some of the vocal complainers sit in an internet caf, or just about anyplace with a crowd with smartphones, observe usage, and then try to defend how your positions are not inherently idiosyncratic and self motivated. It is not about what works but what a small number of people like.
    04-18-2015 04:38 PM
  5. hotphil's Avatar
    Dude, you can't come on a thread like this and demonstrate an understanding of not only the issues, but real-world use too.
    Hamburger haters just ain't got time for that.
    04-18-2015 04:48 PM
  6. wpn00b's Avatar
    Dude, you can't come on a thread like this and demonstrate an understanding of not only the issues, but real-world use too.
    Hamburger haters just ain't got time for that.
    Again, not a hater of the icon in and of itself, just the implementation. Why not compromise and place the icon lower and slide the screen from the left or right (user choice) and be done with it?

    People use it that way because 90% of the market belongs to the two OS's that use it. Not because people have chosen that it is the better way. 90% of people have not had the OPTION of the ellipsis at the bottom. So don't say the market had spoken when the market has never had the floor.

    I'm not saying it needs to be one or the other, just that they need to seriously reconsider usability prior to implementing this tired excuse for a menu system.
    StevoPhilo likes this.
    04-18-2015 05:00 PM
  7. theefman's Avatar
    Sarcasm is used at times when someone can't defend their position but 1) will not accept the alternative and 2) isn't satisfied with simply saying nothing. The story is not about any other features - it addresses one thing and does so in a logical and intelligent manner. How about sticking to the topic at hand or is it just that you have no response on this subject and feel the need to shift to alternate bits of whining?

    Sorry if I don't tow the line like everyone else and cheer the removal of what makes WP unique. And as for sticking on topic, the theme now is that it was Metro's design that made the platform undesirable, but the point was that doesn't explain why the apps (especially MS apps) on WP were so poor in comparison to other platforms which was, and still is the biggest problem of the platform. The UI has nothing to do with this.
    wpn00b, Residing and gmlongo like this.
    04-18-2015 05:25 PM
  8. manicottiK's Avatar
    Lots of folks say that users don't buy WP because of the app gap and that firm don't develop for WP because of the customer gap. Some of that is just the normal chicken-and-egg issue, but some of it is because Microsoft may have been too revolutionary with WP7 in a way that alienated users and firms.

    WP7 looked and worked very differently from iOS and Android and it came to the market after those products were far enough along that most folks knew how things "were supposed to work." Although the launchers were different, apps were pretty similar on iOS and Android, but not on WP. The WP emphasis of text, truncating it, eliminating borders and dividers from touchable objects, and removing direct-access to tabs are all things that users can see -- and dislike as odd -- quickly. Android users found WP alien in a way that didn't apply to iOS and vice versa.

    The good things -- easy swiping, controls at the bottom, one-handedness, etc. -- aren't things that are evident in the 30 seconds that someone gives a phone while browsing at a store. Sure, an explanation would help, but neither the customers nor the sales folks want to engage in an education session to pick a phone. (As my mom once said to me after I tried to explain the finer points of paragraph formatting in Word for Windows 1.0, "don't give me that concept sh** -- just tell me how to stop centering.") Android and iOS can be cross-shopped with ease - WP is an oddball (that we all love).

    Hubs were designed to help users by gathering similar sources of standardized information (i.e., contacts or photos) and exposing them through a single interface. This saved the users from having to install and deal with a bunch of different apps. This was a revolutionary approach and it was decidedly pro-user. However, Facebook and the big firms do not want an OS to "normalize" them into a set of generic services because it pushes them down in importance to users (and mindshare of investors).

    Contrary to popular belief, those big firms are not in the business of providing services to help people find and stay in touch with other people -- they are in the business of selling eyeballs to advertisers. The only way to do that is to control the app experience to differentiate themselves from similar services. WP7's user-focused hubs were an attack on the big firms and those firms reacted by refusing to engage with WP. (Twitter even went so far as to limit developers so that third-party clients could not succeed on any platform.)

    Having said all of that, it's worth nothing that the current navigational patterns are a problem for some types of apps. Hamburgers can help in that kind of app and they can help without being shoved into every app. Also, there's no reason that backing off from the old model means fully embracing the others. If WP gets a bit closer, users can understand and move to it without having to take a 2 credit course in Metro. In a weird way, this is like Gates' old "embrace and extend." Like tiles ARE the icons of iOS and Android, but done better -- embraced and extended with more information that's automatically updated. Similar things could be lurking in W10 code that's unfinished in Redmond.

    Finally, while I just defended their whole strategy, I'm not sure that I like it. My apps look better than the same ones from my colleagues who develop for iOS and Android. I don't want to loose that visual edge. I'm already thinking of ways that I can introduce a "one-handed" setting that rearranges the UI to better support single-handed use. But other developers and I can't go too far or even speak intelligently about what's happening until we get documentation. That should begin to happen at the end of this month when the Build conference occurs. My fingers are crossed.
    Tien-Lin Chang and StevoPhilo like this.
    04-18-2015 06:26 PM
  9. Spectrum90's Avatar
    04-18-2015 06:44 PM
  10. Ma Rio's Avatar
    I can't wait for this to go trough, and then FAIL. I can't see one way in which bringing hamburger menus will magically aid Microsoft towards victory.
    It can only **** off the current users and make things even worse. And at the end MS will realise it can no longer fund the sinking and non-profitable OS, but then it'll be too late.

    Yeah, I'm overexaggerating a little, but something similar will happen. There won't be one thing that will make you stay on this OS. And then, the app gap and the app (un)quality will certanly be way more noticeable, and will be a bigger problem.
    Kram Sacul likes this.
    04-18-2015 08:31 PM
  11. Slovenix's Avatar
    Now think which option is actually thought out well. The Old version. Only thing that it needs is new look, not hamburgers and top. Don't get me wrong I don't have anything against hamburgers / that design and sometimes it was annoying when I switched from Android, but I got used to WP style. Now going back .. As much as I know the positives of hamburger it's just ughhhhh boring and non practical anymore. Need a better solution. Always prefered swiping.. At least on mobile phones.
    Last edited by Slovenix; 04-18-2015 at 09:30 PM.
    04-18-2015 08:55 PM
  12. Slovenix's Avatar
    https://windowsphone.uservoice.com/f...re-suggestions

    Please give a vote :) least we can do ...
    04-18-2015 08:57 PM
  13. D M C's Avatar
    Now finally we have got serious issue with Windows for Phone.

    Mr. X : With this new hamburger menu my thumb have to do little more extra work which is very painful for my poor thumb.
    I am a very hardworking person but with this new design ,....... man it's called slavery. We are against it.

    Mr. Z: Don't worry we got this problem covered for you guys who don't want to put strain on their thumbs
    25914-106.jpg

    PROBLEM SOLVED
    04-19-2015 03:32 AM
  14. sumton's Avatar
    stop wasting your energy and time on this its not about you or me its about windows phone future, they are going to do what they think the best solution for their product if you don't like where they are heading with windows phone design simply switch to something else but before you do it upgrade to windows 10 and try the final product then decide if you are going to stay or leave. i'll be doing the same thing if i didn't like the final product i'll switch to ios.
    DCTF, aximtreo and manicottiK like this.
    04-19-2015 03:32 AM
  15. djeire84's Avatar
    Oh dear this reminds me of Xbox fans vs Playstation fans. Cant we all just get along! 😊
    Laura Knotek and aximtreo like this.
    04-19-2015 03:35 AM
  16. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    Oh dear this reminds me of Xbox fans vs Playstation fans. Cant we all just get along!
    We can. We'll be using phones as Microsoft intends, without a Windows logo
    04-19-2015 06:24 AM
  17. rollindice's Avatar
    "1) Swiping sucks. It hides content."

    What? Menu doesn't hide content then? It doesnt show even a glimpse. And lets be honest, most apps have 1-3 views, not 5+. I'm not saying remove the menu, but these things can co-exist.

    "The way average people hold phones..."

    The average people hold their phones in a stupid way because the menus are at the top. I have seen this myself now with W10M TP. Mail app is unusable with one hand only and the only way to even try to use one hand is to hold the phone from the middle. In W8.1 eveything can be done with one hand, meaning driving a bicycle and writing an email at the same time. Impossible now.

    "2b) You dont use the hamburger very often."

    Everytime when opening mail app to check different mail boxes is not "often"?

    "2c) Once you have an app bar again, in order to put the hamburger, youll want to use that space."
    Exactly. Menu being at the bottom of the screen on W8.1 allowed reply, refresh and other buttons to be there too, AT THE BOTTOM. The those are too at the top.


    Look at an app like WhatsApp, there's multiple menu options on the top, so you can swipe and have visual indication there's more to the left or right. It doesn't show just the next page on top of the app, but multiple pages, which is fine. When using iOS WhatsApp has a lot of hidden and difficult to detect buttons all over the place

    and why oh why for the life of me and many other users why in the phone app you can't swipe easily from left to right to switch between Speed Dial and History, you gotta stretch fingers to very top of phone and press directly on Speed Dial or History , yeah you wanna make apps universal for phones,tablets and pcs but tablets and PCs does not have a Phone app, implementations can be done much much better, really hope changes comes.
    theefman, wpn00b and Kram Sacul like this.
    04-19-2015 06:34 AM
  18. FAHMI BASSEM's Avatar
    In fact, at the time Microsoft got a lot of stick for having stolen the early Windows concept from Apple's Macintoshes, but people forget that!



    I think you and the OP are making the common mistake of looking at an online community of hundreds/thousands of people and visualising it as a single entity. Who is this "you"? Who called out the "iSheeps"? I don't see many people doing that, and nobody who does that speaks for me.

    It's not as if Microsoft is just throwing darts at the wall. When they say their research bears these decisions out, they mean that. This is WP's best shot of success, you are not correct, and the recent years of unique test features have not made the OS a contender in the market. We all amplify the opinions we see that chime with ours and diminish the ones that oppose us, but market research is the only reliable yardstick (not infallible, but the most reliable).

    Windows has great strengths as a mobile OS. The things that make my friends express interest are things like the Start screen, where I can completely transform the look and feel of the phone in seconds and have it feel new. They're envious of the longevity of the system, where I can be using my flagship from two and a half years ago and it's still supported so well as to be competitive in the current market (whereas their phones' manufacturers have pretty much forced them onto one or even two new handsets in that time) and still have life ahead of today. Those are the things that matter - not being so divergent that your phone is unintuitive to the uninitiated.

    So why did MS ask us for help? feedbacks?
    theefman and Residing like this.
    04-19-2015 07:38 AM
  19. DCTF's Avatar
    So why did MS ask us for help? feedbacks?
    To get more ideas. If you see something change, it's because they've already decided against the old version. It would take a massive outcry to decisively turn back the clock on this, and there isn't one. Their primary research said "ditch this", and the response is at best (for your argument) mixed.

    The old system was great in its time, for small format low-res phones. Now we've moved towards large screen high-res phones, the problem to which it was an answer no longer exists.
    aximtreo likes this.
    04-19-2015 08:12 AM
  20. ajayden's Avatar
    Lol, I just love the hate towards Microsoft from all the Android user. It is justified.

    Because, all the android users are the people who paid royalty to Microsoft for using their patents on the android phones.
    So the hate is justified.

    And because all android users pay for the patents for life, Microsoft can splurge the money away.

    Now I leave it to your hands, to decide who is smart in business sense.
    04-19-2015 08:20 AM
  21. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    To get more ideas. If you see something change, it's because they've already decided against the old version. It would take a massive outcry to decisively turn back the clock on this, and there isn't one. Their primary research said "ditch this", and the response is at best (for your argument) mixed.

    The old system was great in its time, for small format low-res phones. Now we've moved towards large screen high-res phones, the problem to which it was an answer no longer exists.
    Mixed response? Are you drunk, the only ones who are supporting it will support anything Microsoft does in any case.
    Residing likes this.
    04-19-2015 08:26 AM
  22. DCTF's Avatar
    Mixed response? Are you drunk, the only ones who are supporting it will support anything Microsoft does in any case.
    You're angry, so you're loud, and you're rude to people: you have big voices. Those who are relatively happy about the way things are going don't react like this, and their voices are quieter, but they exist and there are lots of those too.

    I wouldn't use one website, one forum, as a barometer for what's happening. We can't measure things that way. We can make sensible deductions from the events we're seeing, though. MS didn't begin this new OS without spending a lot of money on research first, so we know they're not going in blindly. We also know that whatever happens, the tablet/phone OS is going to be tightly integrated with the desktop W10, and that means W8's style is the past.

    I don't know where you get the idea that anyone positive about WP10 is just a sycophant. There are lots of things MS does that I don't like, and some I do. Desktop Metro apps like Mail were an absolute mess imo, failing to produce a format that suited either side well and amplifying certain mistakes of the mobile/tablet-side system.

    On the other hand, and this is an illustration of how the seemingly best idea will not survive the market's wants, I really like the Win key toggle in place of the old Start menu. I thought it was much better: tap Win, get a giant list of everything on your machine (instead of a fraction in a pop-up panel, like W7), start typing the first letters of the thing you want, click it from the reactive list, done. It doesn't matter that there was a sizeable band of us who could explain exactly why that was better, because most people disagreed with us and the feature was not persuasive to people who weren't currently using W8, so it's out. I'll live.
    Jazmac and IndyJG like this.
    04-19-2015 09:27 AM
  23. Jazmac's Avatar
    Maybe there are bigger issues to be concerned about than this. If this very minor modification will remove some confusion on the device for those unfamiliar with WP, what is the big deal? What I don't get are those people that claim the hamburger is more of an issue than the OS itself. Enough so they will bolt to another OS that don't use the dots at all and never will. I still say it all about that Windows OS and if you must go to ios or android, go with my blessings but go quietly. Its just a phone, not your life.

    These kinds of stories are very tiring and I hope those 2 minutes will reduce these kinds of stories on Windows Central. It won't, because people can't let it go but I can still hope.
    DCTF, IndyJG and mark233 like this.
    04-19-2015 09:49 AM
  24. Slovenix's Avatar
    It's gonna be funny when others make new designs without hamburger, which is already being used on Android. It's actually time to move on to the next level, not to go back like Microsoft. Yes I just don't get it why would you do that. Those 2 minutes doesn't make any sense, it's just being too lazy to think about a better solution. It's actually hilarious that they didn't figure out how to implement wallpaper and when they do it still sucks. Is it so hard to put a wallpaper on the whole system, so when you multitask you can still see it like on every other OS? I'm an ultimate Microsoft fan in my area and I "fight" to show the advantages of it, but I'm getting tired of this lack of common sense in design. Their Android apps are flawless if you compare them to WP, It looks like they don't even want to build for WP.. You can't build a perfect system without love. haha :D I like Hamburgers on Android, but it's time to move on.
    FAHMI BASSEM likes this.
    04-19-2015 09:58 AM
  25. Slovenix's Avatar
    Who ever asked for hamburger menus on user voice ? or comments ? anywhere ? not even on Android lol
    04-19-2015 10:05 AM
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