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04-28-2015 07:41 AM
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  1. Slovenix's Avatar
    For a lack of better words, I think too many people are getting their metaphorical undergarments in a bunch when complaining about the hamburger menu. I'm not happy about the UI changes going on in the Technical Preview either, but I'm willing to see what Microsoft is planning to do with the final product and give as much information, opinion, and feedback as I can to make sure the final product is a usable system in my eyes.

    However, I think people are forgetting that UX guidelines are just that; guidelines. From a consistency standpoint, it makes sense to me to go about this route in the future with the convergence of Windows-as-a-Service for all sorts of devices. If apps in the future have the power to be run on a phone, laptop, desktop, tablet, convertible, all-in-one, Xbox, and other platforms (as shown in iOS and Android); it makes perfect sense to me to unify consistency between all the platforms to make sure a Microsoft-designed app is a consistent look and feel regardless of what platform it may be running on. It's in Microsoft's interest to make their apps look consistent across platforms to minimize the confusion users come upon when using their software from device to device, and to showcase their brand look across audiences. It should feel like a Microsoft product whether you use it on Windows 10, iOS, Android, and any other operating system Microsoft may want to pursue.

    To encourage a consistency across the OS, I think it's encouraged that app developers follow that guideline, too, but I think it's an encouragement and not a requirement. <Hub> controls in XAML/C# are not going to be suddenly gone and stop working, and <PivotControls> for older apps that haven't transitioned to using <Hub> and other content controls aren't going to be going away anytime soon. People will still be able to develop applications for Windows in the ways they want, whether they want to jump in to the adaptive UI changes in code coming, or if they still want to use common shared code and different projects for each platform to define how the UI will look dependent on device.

    I'm not saying it's all roses and honey; this flexibility added to the system can create user confusion as they traverse from app-to-app if and only if the design language between apps isn't unified, or if and only if developers won't accept following a new UX. Redesigning an app is expensive in time and resources; but thankfully it's not as expensive as it could've been, especially if it's already a universal app, and especially if it nicely follows MVVM; and thankfully the new changes aren't going to break existing universal apps, to my knowledge.

    The best bet for now is to keep voicing opinions and keep giving feedback. However, I don't think complaining about how things are changing is helpful at all. It doesn't mean that the complaints are valid; I just don't think they're helpful, and that it seems very, very myopic.
    That's the only reason I think why it should use the same look, but that still doesn't mean that it's better. I don't even know if Universal apps are that good idea anymore.. People want to use phones, not phone apps on PC.. You just use the fully featured web versions.. When I tell people you can use "phone" apps on your Windows 8+ PC they really don't give a shoe about it. No one likes the tiles anyway.

    And well, how can we give feedback in a more "nice" way .. It's there on the uservoice already with tons of votes, but the ideas are not really taken into the mind..
    Yazen likes this.
    04-19-2015 02:23 PM
  2. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    And well, how can we give feedback in a more "nice" way .. It's there on the uservoice already with tons of votes, but the ideas are not really taken into the mind..
    One thing that might help is to answer "why" it's better to change. Microsoft gave their stance as they wanted unification, and honestly nobody did an OS unification of this large in a very long time. If it's just complaints that it's worse, they don't really have much to go with.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-19-2015 02:29 PM
  3. Slovenix's Avatar
    And why complain about the forums, they were made to discuss, so there you go.. :)
    04-19-2015 02:29 PM
  4. Slovenix's Avatar
    One thing that might help is to answer "why" it's better to change. Microsoft gave their stance as they wanted unification, and honestly nobody did an OS unification of this large in a very long time. If it's just complaints that it's worse, they don't really have much to go with.
    Because there's not enough good reasons for me to say why it is better to use this "new" change I guess.. Only works well on PC.. On phone.. It's good cos then you have more space on the bottom.. And bad because you lose ease of use you had and the thing that actually made me try WP.

    Well thats very helpful. Who is complaining ? People are just trying to find new ideas, and there's plenty of them out there.

    Maybe some of you are too old to understand fresh ideas lol

    We should actually encourage Microsoft to work on something new, fresh, simple to use, something sexy, relaxing, orgasmic to eyes, Interesting and so on, not just copy the same old thing LOL. Just like I've said, Kudos to people who "invented" Modern UI.
    Last edited by Guytronic; 04-20-2015 at 01:05 AM.
    04-19-2015 02:35 PM
  5. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    I think it's unfair to package wrap a statement that essentially says "People who are okay-with-these-changes/waiting-to-see-the-fruits-of-these-changes are too old to understand new ideas."

    Microsoft isn't forcing developers to adhere to how they design, but it's in their best interest to unify their UX in all their platforms to prevent user confusion as their services are used from device to device. That interest applies to every third party too; they would want to unify their experience to give brand cohesion and reduce user confusion.

    Microsoft is giving the developers the power to let people develop for any device or platform they support in a unified way: XAML/C#/WPF, Xamarin, HTML5/Javascript/Typescript, Cordova. To reduce confusion they have to decide how to lay out a UX that can work through all services. They are inviting others to follow suit, but the ways to design before are not going away.

    The project of One Windows is ambitious to say the least. It's going to cause abrasion. However comments that hinder that development without feedback on how to keep that unifying goal in sight will hurt Windows's future goals.
    04-19-2015 03:09 PM
  6. Slovenix's Avatar
    They will have to change this webpage hehe Microsoft /design :)

    Anyways, yes, yes, user confusion everywhere.. That excuse is so lame, but unfortunately too real.

    I'm afraid.. well not really.. that when Apple or Google "invents" new design, there will be no problem such as user confusion.. hah. Easy job if have big influence.

    To be honest, Microsoft, when you give me Phone with full Windows with desktop designed for smaller screens, you will make my dream phone come true. :)
    Last edited by Guytronic; 04-20-2015 at 01:06 AM.
    04-19-2015 03:24 PM
  7. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    I'm afraid.. well not really.. that when Apple or Google "invents" new design, there will be no problem such as user confusion.. hah. Easy job if have big influence.
    Apple and Google have never really tried to do a unifying UX with their platforms and devices, nor have their code bases been as unified as Microsoft is trying to do.
    04-19-2015 04:41 PM
  8. Slovenix's Avatar
    Apple and Google have never really tried to do a unifying UX with their platforms and devices, nor have their code bases been as unified as Microsoft is trying to do.

    I meant the design alone. Anyways a normal user probably doesn't care much about unifying, at least from my experience by presenting this to people around.

    Google is trying to make Android apps run on Chrome OS tho., and no matter how the apps are build, they are becoming more powerful. But as long as a computer doesn't support AutoCAD and such I'm not interested ;).

    When a phone will be able to run .exe then I'll be interested. :) I'm pretty sure that it will happen

    Apple and Google have never really tried to do a unifying UX with their platforms and devices, nor have their code bases been as unified as Microsoft is trying to do.

    I meant the design alone, if they are going to change anything, then Microsoft UI will be that one again which doesn't follow others. And we all know Google doesn't sleep and is able to surprise anytime. Anyways a normal user probably doesn't care much about unifying, at least from my experience by presenting this to people around.

    Google is trying to make Android apps run on Chrome OS tho.. But as long as a computer doesn't support AutoCAD and such I'm not interested ;).

    The reason I point out Google so much is only cos they have the biggest market share in mobile space thus more influence.

    When a phone will be able to run .exe then I'll be interested. :) I'm pretty sure that it will happen
    Last edited by Guytronic; 04-20-2015 at 01:06 AM.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-19-2015 05:44 PM
  9. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Maybe some of you are too old to understand fresh ideas lol
    We didn't get to be old by being foolish. Most of us older folks here use, and enjoy, multiple platforms because we know how to identify strengths and weaknesses. That's called wisdom and it doesn't come in a pill.
    Laura Knotek, hotphil, tgp and 1 others like this.
    04-19-2015 05:55 PM
  10. Slovenix's Avatar
    We didn't get to be old by being foolish. Most of us older folks here use, and enjoy, multiple platforms because we know how to identify strengths and weaknesses. That's called wisdom and it doesn't come in a pill.
    I know, and I hate to say stuff like that, because I respect people who are older than me, but it is a fact - that young people are also smart (ideas and talent) and are learning faster than their ancestors. There's a reason why companies hire younger fresh minds, with way more ideas. I remember on our most popular TV channel, when they got new 20y+ people, everything became better and in shorter amount of time. Strenghts and weaknesses are like MAIN things we focus on in school and Academy of design.

    So I don't think that this statement is as valid as it used to be in the past. Our professors always puts us in front, cos they know we're the ones to change things in the future. Maybe it's just our culture, I can be happy
    about it.

    For example, just look at all those young developers, already creating better work in no time compared to before. Just needs a chance.

    I apologize as English is not my main language.
    04-19-2015 06:13 PM
  11. hotphil's Avatar
    Maybe some of you are too old to understand fresh ideas lol
    hmmmm.
    It's called experience, laddo.
    It's having seen scores of ui/ux over the years and being able to have an educated guess as to which "new" ones might succeed.
    It's nice that the kids can have ideas and get involved in a discussion though.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-19-2015 06:14 PM
  12. Slovenix's Avatar
    hmmmm.
    It's called experience, laddo.
    It's having seen scores of ui/ux over the years and being able to have an educated guess as to which "new" ones might succeed.
    It's nice that the kids can have ideas and get involved in a discussion though.
    That's why it's good to have a good professor ;)

    Anyways it's good times, to read all these responses, to expand the "horizon" ;) later'
    Last edited by Guytronic; 04-20-2015 at 01:07 AM.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-19-2015 06:26 PM
  13. fatclue_98's Avatar
    but it is a fact - that young people are also smart (ideas and talent) and are learning faster than their ancestors.
    Ancestors? We haven't fossilized yet sonny.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-19-2015 06:43 PM
  14. Slovenix's Avatar
    Ancestors? We haven't fossilized yet sonny.
    I knew that word sounded weird lol
    Laura Knotek and fatclue_98 like this.
    04-19-2015 06:52 PM
  15. MDK22's Avatar
    Old saying parents sometimes say to their children ... "anything you think of, we've already tried"

    history brings frame of reference ...

    plus, when I was your age, I thought I knew everything !
    04-19-2015 07:14 PM
  16. gordonfink's Avatar
    I'm not particularly fond of the upper left hamburger menu, but I also an relatively powerless to do much about it.

    At the end of the day, I will still have a great phone with a great OS. I like it better now, but there is more that I like about WP that the hamburger vs ellipsis. It certainly would not be enough to make me change platforms, but to each his own.
    04-19-2015 07:38 PM
  17. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    At the end of the day, I will still have a great phone with a great OS. I like it better now, but there is more that I like about WP that the hamburger vs ellipsis. It certainly would not be enough to make me change platforms, but to each his own.
    Completely agree.

    As an aside, the Hamburger menu only becomes bad design choice if commonly used functions and fundamental navigation is put there. As someone put, the design of OneDrive is actually a great use, along with the pivots. Outlook in the TP would be fine if you can pin an account to the Start Screen with Live Tile, or choose a default account when opening, but I'm confident that will happen in the next builds.
    HeyCori and prasath1234 like this.
    04-19-2015 08:18 PM
  18. Slovenix's Avatar
    Completely agree.

    As an aside, the Hamburger menu only becomes bad design choice if commonly used functions and fundamental navigation is put there. As someone put, the design of OneDrive is actually a great use, along with the pivots. Outlook in the TP would be fine if you can pin an account to the Start Screen with Live Tile, or choose a default account when opening, but I'm confident that will happen in the next builds.
    I'm guessing that they will switch from horizontal to vertical navigating in apps and use horizontal swipe to open hamburger's room. Like in new MSN apps for W10.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-20-2015 12:40 AM
  19. rollindice's Avatar
    Think you all should have a read , http://wmpoweruser.com/why-a-two-han...wo-hand-phone/
    StevoPhilo likes this.
    04-20-2015 03:39 AM
  20. Rasetech's Avatar
    WMPoweruser trend to bash against Windows 10 in the last days and to sell the opinion of a single author to be the one and only valid view. Don't get me wrong I am also not happy with each and every change of Windows 10 but whats going on in this site in the last few days couldn't be done better on any MS hating site out there.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-20-2015 04:44 AM
  21. hotphil's Avatar
    It's been a poor site for years.
    i like to think it stands for
    Windows
    Mobile
    P <word I can't use here>
    ​User
    04-20-2015 04:59 AM
  22. Slovenix's Avatar
    It's been a poor site for years.
    i like to think it stands for
    Windows
    Mobile
    P <word I can't use here>
    ​User
    Pony
    hotphil likes this.
    04-20-2015 05:12 AM
  23. neo158's Avatar
    Completely agree.

    As an aside, the Hamburger menu only becomes bad design choice if commonly used functions and fundamental navigation is put there. As someone put, the design of OneDrive is actually a great use, along with the pivots. Outlook in the TP would be fine if you can pin an account to the Start Screen with Live Tile, or choose a default account when opening, but I'm confident that will happen in the next builds.
    That might have been me talking about the OneDrive app, the point that haters seem to be missing is that the Hamburger button is used for navigation/less common options ONLY and when done right it's actually useful because it reduces UI clutter. Realistically how many people use the settings or have more than a single OneDrive account, therefore it's not essential to have those visible to the user. Not only that but those things are not Actions which is what the App Bar and ellipsis menu are for.

    You also need to look at it from the point of view that we still have pivots for navigation and we use the content for navigation as well, this is without mentioning the back, windows and search buttons that are common to ALL Windows Phones. From my own usage of the OneDrive app I've found that 99% of the time I never need to go anywhere near the hamburger button. Does this mean that the UI doesn't need tweaking, absolutely not as the search button should be on the App Bar instead as it's an Action performed on the content.
    HeyCori and FAHMI BASSEM like this.
    04-20-2015 07:28 AM
  24. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    WMPoweruser trend to bash against Windows 10 in the last days and to sell the opinion of a single author to be the one and only valid view. Don't get me wrong I am also not happy with each and every change of Windows 10 but whats going on in this site in the last few days couldn't be done better on any MS hating site out there.
    Talking about me (Michael Allison), if you are, I've written only "3" articles that could be construed as going against the new UI. They were separated by a month. I only mentioned the hamburger menu in one of them.
    04-20-2015 07:29 AM
  25. Rasetech's Avatar
    I am talking about the site in general as I don't know any authors of the site by name - so i can't say I talk about a specific person.
    04-20-2015 07:32 AM
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