04-29-2015 06:20 PM
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  1. fdalbor's Avatar
    None of us know for sure what is going to happen. And to be honest it does not matter. Microsoft cannot affort to close down WP and if they do then we will go with Android or IOS. Its not like the world will end. At one time Nokia was the king of cell phones, now they are just about gone. Guest what? The world did not end, something took their place and thats the way it will always be. Some time in the future something will take Android and IOS's place. Its just the way it is. Or something will replace smartphones altogeather.
    04-24-2015 10:11 AM
  2. nohra's Avatar
    I want to make a prediction. Although soon to judge, but I see the microsoft fails and with w10 for phones and in 2017 to sell the part of mobiles. I hope to refute be wrong but this is my opinion.
    What do you think about this guys?
    That sounds about in line with my expectations, maybe even more aggressive. I can see Windows for phone hanging around but I do not see it growing at all. The main aim of W10fp seems to be to make the interface and design language as close to apple and android as possible so as to make it easier for developers to port apps (I guess). I don't think that's going to happen.

    What I see happening is:
    1. Current WP users who like the current efficient interface will be turned off by the W10fp change and figure if they have to use an apple/android-ish interface, might as well get the apps too
    2. Developers will still see Windows mobile as a tiny market, and continue to shun it
    3. Thus, no real reason for current apple/android users to change to Windows. Why should they? If the interface is same except you don't have the app selection and support, why leave what you have?


    Now, keep in mind this question: do I think that staying with Metro/Modern will increase marketshare? NOPE!! The only thing that is going to increase marketshare is a reversal of the aversion to creating apps for Windows phones. The snapchat/Chase bank/500px mindset is very prevalent. Honestly, the only thing I see making Windows phones successful is if they figure out how to get android apps certified for the Store and run in a sandbox. And maybe they will. If they do, I think Windows on phones can grow to 10%+ marketshare. But if that doesn't happen, yes I think Microsoft will eventually sell the unit. The OS may not go away, but I think it will live on about as successfully as BlackBerry has.
    Makubex1980 and prasath1234 like this.
    04-24-2015 10:36 AM
  3. Giddora's Avatar
    This is a comment of a dude in other site, I think he explains it well:
    "That's gross margin surur, not profit. Adding SG&A, losses must be over $500 million per quarter.
    Negative margin means they are selling under the cost of the hardware, and even with those subsidized prices people don't want to buy the phones."
    Microsoft makes a profit not only from sales but from bundling services and getting more users so you can't really calculate like you are trying to.

    Windows Phone is quite healthy for being so small and considering almost all Android-manufacturers are making a loss, I would think Android is in a worse position than Windows Phone is... Especially if Cyanogenmod can take the control out of Google's hands.
    04-24-2015 11:14 AM
  4. Joshwin's Avatar
    MS has enough money.So even if WP fails they wont give up on it.
    04-24-2015 12:54 PM
  5. jlzimmerman's Avatar
    As important as mobile will be toward the future tech industry as a whole, MS would be absolutely foolish (which insiders have stated the same) to give up on mobile.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-24-2015 02:12 PM
  6. Dave47's Avatar
    About predictions....

    They are hard to make, especially about the future.
    04-24-2015 02:59 PM
  7. realwarder's Avatar
    This is a comment of a dude in other site, I think he explains it well:
    "That's gross margin surur, not profit. Adding SG&A, losses must be over $500 million per quarter.
    Negative margin means they are selling under the cost of the hardware, and even with those subsidized prices people don't want to buy the phones."
    They made a 4 million loss. This was due to exchange rates giving a lower income than expected. Not sure where you get your entirely random $500 million SG&A for the phone division. There is no doubt that Microsoft are pushing low end phone hardware pretty much at cost though to drive market share. But we already knew that, this has just confirmed it.
    04-24-2015 04:22 PM
  8. DCTF's Avatar
    This comment gets a Like mainly because your Lumia avatar game is strong
    snowmutt and KhawarNadeem like this.
    04-24-2015 04:29 PM
  9. kiddori's Avatar
    MS needs to work harder on creating a great eco-system of products and services.
    04-24-2015 06:22 PM
  10. Guytronic's Avatar
    Its not like the world will end.
    Re-scanned this thread again and stopped at the words above.
    snowmutt and colinkiama like this.
    04-24-2015 07:31 PM
  11. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Microsoft isn't trying though. It's hard to find their stuff anywhere. They don't release any good phones. They are too focused on Windows 10. They want to make a BANG with it. Throw all their marketing and all the OEM phones out at once and flood the market. Seriously only 1 carrier has the 830 here. And it's not even noticeable with 0 advertising. They are first focusing on the international markets. It's almost impossible to find their phones unless you buy them online. My brother had to buy his 925 from overseas. There's no phones here, so yah it's not going to gain much share. They don't care right now.

    Windows 10 has always been the primary objective. My guess is the incremental updates were there to help the platform maintain the current user base and possibly grow it. It also showed off what Microsoft is capable of. I mean the first Windows 8 was not that great. They saw other competitor phones, they know what they are capable of, but they didn't include a lot of features because they just wanted to show it off. Now 8.1.1 has enough features to keep more people from jumping ship. The UI is truly a breakthrough in how you interact with phones. I have all 3 and i'm not biased. I know friends who really like the Windows UI too.

    And their market share has grown. Maybe not much but still enough. They attack the smaller markets and then take on the bigger ones. Even Google notices that the budget phones have been getting Microsoft lots of users. International markets are much better than North America no doubt.

    Look at the first Xbox, Microsoft lost billions on it. But they were determined to get into the console market. The xbox 360 helped them get more market share and even overtake Nintendo. Now it's between Sony and Microsoft. Microsoft keeps trying until they get it right. This time listening to the users which is a huge difference from Apple or Google.

    Heck, look at Google, they struggled for a while before they became big. It was once OEMs started flooding the market that things took off for them.

    I think if they get Windows 10 right and get the OEMs and lots of flagships. It may take off. We won't know what the final Windows 10 design looks like. I'm hoping it's something similar to this.

    new-start-screen-interactive-tiles-show-up-windows-phone-10-concept-468834-3.jpg

    new-start-screen-interactive-tiles-show-up-windows-phone-10-concept-468834-4.jpg
    fekish likes this.
    04-25-2015 07:52 AM
  12. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    I've always been curious whenever I see a "concept" with a bottom status bar: When did it become so hard to swipe down over the years from the top of the phone?

    Also:

    For a content-first design philosophy, both of those screenshots you propose make no sense to do in this context: Viewers of print/digital media in languages that move left-to-right, top-to-bottom (English, most languages, Japanese or Chinese written horizontally), have visual focus in an F shape. That is, your natural priority when looking at the screen forms the top of the F along the media and trails down along the left edge of the media with a little peek at the center. Right-to-left, top-to-bottom languages (Arabic, for example) have focus as a flipped F, with the focus on the right side moving down. Should phones ever read top-to-bottom, right-to-left, (Japanese/Chinese written vertically), it would be an F rotated 90-degrees clockwise.

    With this thought in mind, why would we put the status bar in the place in all three possible F foci I listed on the bottom where nobody intuitively looks when scanning a piece of print/digital media (in this case a phone), and why would we put a static "Start, Programs, Files, Search" in a place that's high focus and should contain dynamic, new information?
    04-25-2015 08:48 AM
  13. colinkiama's Avatar
    Microsoft isn't trying though. It's hard to find their stuff anywhere. They don't release any good phones. They are too focused on Windows 10. They want to make a BANG with it. Throw all their marketing and all the OEM phones out at once and flood the market. Seriously only 1 carrier has the 830 here. And it's not even noticeable with 0 advertising. They are first focusing on the international markets. It's almost impossible to find their phones unless you buy them online. My brother had to buy his 925 from overseas. There's no phones here, so yah it's not going to gain much share. They don't care right now.

    Windows 10 has always been the primary objective. My guess is the incremental updates were there to help the platform maintain the current user base and possibly grow it. It also showed off what Microsoft is capable of. I mean the first Windows 8 was not that great. They saw other competitor phones, they know what they are capable of, but they didn't include a lot of features because they just wanted to show it off. Now 8.1.1 has enough features to keep more people from jumping ship. The UI is truly a breakthrough in how you interact with phones. I have all 3 and i'm not biased. I know friends who really like the Windows UI too.

    And their market share has grown. Maybe not much but still enough. They attack the smaller markets and then take on the bigger ones. Even Google notices that the budget phones have been getting Microsoft lots of users. International markets are much better than North America no doubt.

    Look at the first Xbox, Microsoft lost billions on it. But they were determined to get into the console market. The xbox 360 helped them get more market share and even overtake Nintendo. Now it's between Sony and Microsoft. Microsoft keeps trying until they get it right. This time listening to the users which is a huge difference from Apple or Google.

    Heck, look at Google, they struggled for a while before they became big. It was once OEMs started flooding the market that things took off for them.

    I think if they get Windows 10 right and get the OEMs and lots of flagships. It may take off. We won't know what the final Windows 10 design looks like. I'm hoping it's something similar to this.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    1) Microsoft probably know that wp 8.1 isn't up to the standard of lollipop and ios 8.3. So they have to go all in with windows 10. Better than wasting money right?
    2) you are totally right about marketing. Especially in the US. The surface pro 3 never magically became popular, Microsoft had to make great ads but for wp their ads in the US are just not as good. I understand that cortana is supposed to be the feature that we all love but there is more to windows phone than cortana and the camera but Microsoft aren't showcasing it. Maybe they will in windows 10. Maybe...
    04-25-2015 08:50 AM
  14. KhawarNadeem's Avatar
    Well I believe a METEOR will strike the Atlantic Ocean where the lost continent of Atlantis lies in 2016 and cause Apple to split itself into two and sell the MacBook brand to Exxon for reasons unbeknownst to us..

    ......... I love you.
    xandros9 likes this.
    04-25-2015 12:43 PM
  15. jack dempsey's Avatar
    They made a 4 million loss. This was due to exchange rates giving a lower income than expected. Not sure where you get your entirely random $500 million SG&A for the phone division. There is no doubt that Microsoft are pushing low end phone hardware pretty much at cost though to drive market share. But we already knew that, this has just confirmed it.
    That's gross margin, not loss.
    $500 million is optimistic, the loss could be bigger than that. Nokia alone was over $700 million of SG&A in the Devices division and Microsoft was also spending by itself.

    As important as mobile will be toward the future tech industry as a whole, MS would be absolutely foolish (which insiders have stated the same) to give up on mobile.
    Does Microsoft need a mobile operating system? They don't make money with the operating system, and they have good apps on Android and iOS.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-25-2015 02:23 PM
  16. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I've always been curious whenever I see a "concept" with a bottom status bar: When did it become so hard to swipe down over the years from the top of the phone?

    Also:

    For a content-first design philosophy, both of those screenshots you propose make no sense to do in this context: Viewers of print/digital media in languages that move left-to-right, top-to-bottom (English, most languages, Japanese or Chinese written horizontally), have visual focus in an F shape. That is, your natural priority when looking at the screen forms the top of the F along the media and trails down along the left edge of the media with a little peek at the center. Right-to-left, top-to-bottom languages (Arabic, for example) have focus as a flipped F, with the focus on the right side moving down. Should phones ever read top-to-bottom, right-to-left, (Japanese/Chinese written vertically), it would be an F rotated 90-degrees clockwise.

    With this thought in mind, why would we put the status bar in the place in all three possible F foci I listed on the bottom where nobody intuitively looks when scanning a piece of print/digital media (in this case a phone), and why would we put a static "Start, Programs, Files, Search" in a place that's high focus and should contain dynamic, new information?
    The main point is the design pattern of the tiles, the interactive ability with the larger tiles, among other things. This isn't perfect but with tweaking it can be made better no doubt. I do prefer the scrollable action items rather than the collapse method that is currently in windows 10. Whenever I collapse the items it just looks so ugly and feels wrong. Granted I haven't tried the method proposed in the concept, so maybe that would be even worse. Who knows.
    04-26-2015 08:49 AM
  17. Don Geronimo's Avatar
    The main point is the design pattern of the tiles, the interactive ability with the larger tiles, among other things. This isn't perfect but with tweaking it can be made better no doubt. I do prefer the scrollable action items rather than the collapse method that is currently in windows 10. Whenever I collapse the items it just looks so ugly and feels wrong. Granted I haven't tried the method proposed in the concept, so maybe that would be even worse. Who knows.
    I doubt the main point is the design pattern of the tiles, otherwise the other graphic concepts would've been separated into their own ideas instead of lumped into one "concept" Windows Phone OS.

    Specifically with the interactive ability of larger tiles, it's hard to tell in a concept, but those "interactive" larger live tile buttons in the live tile would be hard to push considering their size, not to mention what if scrolling upwards or downwards was happening, and a thumb/finger just happens to press on one of those interaction buttons? I think the rumored 3D Touch MixView model would work better (kinda like the little pop view that happens when you double-tap the Xbox button on the Xbox One). It would trade the instant usability of the concept (a gesture or some hold movement would need to happen to trigger said MixView), but it would give larger live tiles more content area instead of being used by action chrome, and would remedy the accidental interaction press.

    That's gross margin, not loss.
    $500 million is optimistic, the loss could be bigger than that. Nokia alone was over $700 million of SG&A in the Devices division and Microsoft was also spending by itself.

    Does Microsoft need a mobile operating system? They don't make money with the operating system, and they have good apps on Android and iOS.
    I find it confoundingly funny when talking about money losses for big businesses like Microsoft. Sure, the numbers quoted are really large and are really significant. But, really, it would hurt to see numbers like that, but that amount seems like a drop in the bucket for a company like Microsoft. To even talk about those kinds of losses just seems really funny.

    As for Microsoft's need for a mobile operating system, yes, I think they do. They don't make money with the OS, sure, but neither does anyone, really. Android and iOS have good apps, but so does Windows Phone. Because of Microsoft's plan to eventually make Windows-as-a-Service and a One Windows platform, they need a mobile operating system to achieve that (not to mention, as it stands right now, looks like Phones and Small tablets are getting the same OS in W10)
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-26-2015 09:44 AM
  18. Krystianpants's Avatar
    So one of my friends is an iPhone 6 lover who believes the design is just amazing and talks about the details of the phone all the time. She saw this today and said that she would buy it just because of how pretty it was. I bet a lot of people would.

    microsoft-lumia-940-xl-concept-1.jpg

    microsoft-lumia-940-xl-concept-2.jpg

    microsoft-lumia-940-xl-concept-3.jpg

    microsoft-lumia-940-xl-concept-4.jpg

    microsoft-lumia-940-xl-concept-5.jpg

    As I was saying. The phone style is a major reason people buy. Techies may not care but the majority of people do.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-26-2015 04:15 PM
  19. Blkacesvf41's Avatar
    So one of my friends is an iPhone 6 lover who believes the design is just amazing and talks about the details of the phone all the time. She saw this today and said that she would buy it just because of how pretty it was. I bet a lot of people would.

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    As I was saying. The phone style is a major reason people buy. Techies may not care but the majority of people do.
    Sweet lord! Are these for real? Or are they renderings of someone's dream phone? How did I miss this?
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-26-2015 04:30 PM
  20. Loco5150's Avatar
    I freaking love board of Nokia for playing the game so well... They were able to dump the mobile division to MS and for good 7bn and with terms that left them keeping everything that has value...

    That said, I think MS cant afford to get out from the mobile space, they know it and that's why they had to buy it. Well, of course not everyone agreed on it at MS, Ballmer already had to go.

    The space between phone, tablet and desktop OS's will keep getting closer and MS has no other choice but to ride this out. They will succeed to some extent. Might take some time and money, but the user base will get bigger.
    Laura Knotek and prasath1234 like this.
    04-26-2015 04:31 PM
  21. xandros9's Avatar
    I freaking love board of Nokia for playing the game so well... They were able to dump the mobile division to MS and for good 7bn and with terms that left them keeping everything that has value...
    You think the people and all the mobile related facilities, etc were worthless?
    Laura Knotek and Guytronic like this.
    04-26-2015 05:04 PM
  22. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Sweet lord! Are these for real? Or are they renderings of someone's dream phone? How did I miss this?
    I wish. If Microsoft made this phone it would be a game changer. It looks so damn good hehe. Hopefully they have seen it and have taken a liking. I don't like the current look of their phones. The 830 looks nice but it's still nothing compared to this beauty.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-27-2015 09:13 AM
  23. Charles Brown8's Avatar
    So one of my friends is an iPhone 6 lover who believes the design is just amazing and talks about the details of the phone all the time. She saw this today and said that she would buy it just because of how pretty it was. I bet a lot of people would.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Microsoft-Lumia-940-XL-concept-1.jpg 
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ID:	103206

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Microsoft-Lumia-940-XL-concept-2.jpg 
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    As I was saying. The phone style is a major reason people buy. Techies may not care but the majority of people do.
    This would make me come off my Icon! Nice looking phone for sure.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    04-27-2015 01:06 PM
  24. jack dempsey's Avatar
    I find it confoundingly funny when talking about money losses for big businesses like Microsoft. Sure, the numbers quoted are really large and are really significant. But, really, it would hurt to see numbers like that, but that amount seems like a drop in the bucket for a company like Microsoft. To even talk about those kinds of losses just seems really funny.

    As for Microsoft's need for a mobile operating system, yes, I think they do. They don't make money with the OS, sure, but neither does anyone, really. Android and iOS have good apps, but so does Windows Phone. Because of Microsoft's plan to eventually make Windows-as-a-Service and a One Windows platform, they need a mobile operating system to achieve that (not to mention, as it stands right now, looks like Phones and Small tablets are getting the same OS in W10)
    In the earnings call the CEO disclosed the exact OPEX run rate of the phone division: $2.5 billion. So, the loss of the phone division was $629 million in the last quarter. That's not funny, It's more than 12.5% of Microsoft's income, and It's not sustainable in the long run, at the current valuation that loss stream is worth $50 billion dollars. They don't expect the situation to improve substantially and dropped the guidance of break even for FY16, without a new guidance.

    If Windows 10 for phones doesn't take off Microsoft has to start producing Android phones. I think first they will add support for Android apps to Windows and try to build an Android app store, if that works, AOSP, if not, Google Android.

    Sad times for us, the end of WP is near.
    04-27-2015 01:11 PM
  25. Dusan Randj's Avatar
    So one of my friends is an iPhone 6 lover who believes the design is just amazing and talks about the details of the phone all the time. She saw this today and said that she would buy it just because of how pretty it was. I bet a lot of people would.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Microsoft-Lumia-940-XL-concept-1.jpg 
Views:	43 
Size:	253.6 KB 
ID:	103206

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Microsoft-Lumia-940-XL-concept-2.jpg 
Views:	39 
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    As I was saying. The phone style is a major reason people buy. Techies may not care but the majority of people do.
    People seems to like this kind of deaign so MSFT should go with something like this. For me, it's too much Samsung looking and wouldn't like it, bit mass are more important.
    04-27-2015 01:15 PM
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