05-15-2015 09:46 PM
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  1. Raj Poladia's Avatar
    I'm starting to wonder if anyone reads these days or just sticks to one line a post? Yes I know the 3% is for WP.... I'm not dumb. Yes I know there are many people on Windows.

    Tell me something. If I'm a mobile developer. Convince me it's a good idea to develop for W10. Explain to me what I'm getting out of it. What benefit. Why should I?

    Can you prove to me it's worth it?

    Answer me this, do you use W8.1? Do you use store apps? How many?
    I personally use most of apps from store, tens of apps.
    05-12-2015 05:29 AM
  2. Rasetech's Avatar
    Your thoughts are absolutely true for small development studios or single developers whos product is the app itself. If my income is the app itself or the money earned through adds inside the app Windows 10 itself is no point on its own to develop for it until the market share numbers raise. For bigger businesses like financial services, public transportation and so on apps are not their product but simply a kind of service to their customers. For them Windows 10 has the big benefit of accessing more people at once. The development costs are reduced drastically and therefore disappear in the marketing budget. For me personally I don't need games or stuff where the app itself is the product for the developer. I am missing some service apps and therefore I have the hope that W10 will bring a few of them in the MS ecosystem.

    Just my two cents.
    Last edited by Rasetech; 05-12-2015 at 05:34 AM. Reason: Fixed typos
    Joe920 likes this.
    05-12-2015 05:32 AM
  3. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    My personal views on this topic is, Google is Afraid of Microsoft, reasons are:
    1. Microsoft's first moto is the security of customers using their services, and all of us know how secured google services are.
    2. If they would give their services on Microsoft platforms then no one will ever choose android unless and until customizations are more important than security for users, this will indirectly effect the android user base of Google.
    I don't think so that corporates have dropped BB and switched to android, I've seen that corporates now a days give windows phone to their employees or and iPhone, rarely I see corporates using Android as their primary phone for their job.
    Even when I bought the windows phone I felt that is little complicated because of absence of google services but now I am comfortable and now I don't even use Google search on PC.the only google service I use is YouTube and there are good third party apps for that and I like it. So I personally don't think that google services are that important.
    I work in a very large company. I cannot connect a WP to my WiFi network but I can connect an iPhone or Android device.

    As for Google being worried about MS, I don't think that is the case here. It's smart business to keep your competitors in check. If MS markets are high enough I think Google would consider it or lose possibility of profits. At this moment in time MS is no threat to Google in that regard.

    As a mobile OS, there is nothing wrong with Android with security features and all OS providers gather information. Whether you want to believe that or not.

    I also said Android and iPhone. I've only heard of a few WP uptakes. Very few. Maybe in other countries but not here and I doubt in the US.

    Everyone has choice and there's nothing wrong with it. If you're happy in a Google free world that's fine. Others want some or all of those services because MS does not cover enough areas.
    Last edited by N_LaRUE; 05-12-2015 at 08:24 AM.
    05-12-2015 05:34 AM
  4. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I personally use most of apps from store, tens of apps.
    From Windows App Store? Meaning Windows 8.1? If so you're one of the rare ones I think.
    05-12-2015 05:37 AM
  5. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    For bigger businesses like financial services, public transportation and so on apps are not their product but simply a kind of service to their customers. For them Windows 10 has the big benefit of accessing more people at once. The development costs are reduced drastically and therefore disappear in the marketing budget. For me personally I don't need games or stuff where the app itself is the product for the developer. I am missing some service apps and therefore I have the hope that W10 will bring a few of them in the MS ecosystem.

    Just my two cents.
    And yet many banks have pulled their apps from WP... On desktop I can use a web browser to access everything why do I need an app?

    Same goes for other services. Most use the browser. What benefits are there in an app? I'm trying to see why it's worth spending money on developing an app for W10. So far I'm not getting any.

    I'm all for the idea of universal apps. I'm all for the idea of Continuum. I'm just taking a developer point of view here. I'm trying to remove people's rose tinted glasses. It's all great stuff but how do you see this attracting developers?
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-12-2015 05:40 AM
  6. Rasetech's Avatar
    On desktop I can use a web browser to access everything why do I need an app?
    The same is true for Mac OS and Chrome OS so why is anybody developing apps anyway? With modern responsive webdesign there would be no need to develop an app for iOS or Android either but people are doing it.
    05-12-2015 05:44 AM
  7. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    The same is true for Mac OS and Chrome OS so why is anybody developing apps anyway? With modern responsive webdesign there would be no need to develop an app for iOS or Android either but people are doing it.
    That's because of market share and people like the experiences of apps and the mobile platform was out first. They're used to the idea. Also a lot of websites are way off being responsive or mobile ready.

    On Windows Desktop people are used to going into a web browser to access things online. This is one of the reasons why so many people had issues with Windows 8/8.1. They just didn't see the point of using an app. They understood programs but apps seemed to confuse them.

    I know the idea behind W10 is supposed to fix that confusion but at this time why should a developer make an app? Will it be worth it? Is it worth it? Will the average Windows user be interested?
    05-12-2015 05:54 AM
  8. Raj Poladia's Avatar
    From Windows App Store? Meaning Windows 8.1? If so you're one of the rare ones I think.
    I too think I am from those rare people who use many apps from windows store (W8.1), ( Little out of the topic) but what I think is if developer choses to build apps for Windows they are not only doing so for only one group of people, if the make it universal then all Xbox community will enjoy their apps and all windows phone users too and even all tablet Laptop and PC users too. So even if developers don't think that their is no profit in developing for windows then according to me they are not at all interested in taking chance/risk or not to do something new. I personally like WP and as far as I know many people like it but don't chose it because of lac of google services, if developers take chance they will surely get the responses for their hard work people will buys their services here too....
    05-12-2015 05:58 AM
  9. amitkrc's Avatar
    How it qualify for net neutrality? I mean either Google should develop the apps for windows phone or it should release the necessary APIs to Microsoft. What do you think??
    Raj Poladia likes this.
    05-12-2015 06:00 AM
  10. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    How it qualify for net neutrality? I mean either Google should develop the apps for windows phone or it should release the necessary APIs to Microsoft. What do you think??
    APIs would be fine for most people but the issue is that APIs change and break things. There's also the issue of security breaches as we found with Snapchat.

    So it's a bit tricky if you ask me.
    05-12-2015 06:04 AM
  11. Raj Poladia's Avatar
    How it qualify for net neutrality? I mean either Google should develop the apps for windows phone or it should release the necessary APIs to Microsoft. What do you think??
    Actually that's the true issue, don't you guys feel by ignoring windows phone platform google is against net neutrality by forcing people not to choose windows platform if they want to enjoy their own services?
    05-12-2015 06:13 AM
  12. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Actually that's the true issue, don't you guys feel by ignoring windows phone platform google is against net neutrality by forcing people not to choose windows platform if they want to enjoy their own services?
    I think you misunderstand net neutrality. It's about IPS controlling content.

    Also Google isn't an advocate of net neutrality. Neither is Nokia.

    You can still use some of Google services on WP and you can use them on your desktop PC if you have one.

    It would be an issue if your ISP/carrier blocked you from MS and only allowed Google forcing you to get an Android phone. That's where net neutrality comes in.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-12-2015 06:44 AM
  13. tgp's Avatar
    Actually that's the true issue, don't you guys feel by ignoring windows phone platform google is against net neutrality by forcing people not to choose windows platform if they want to enjoy their own services?
    Now you sound like John Chen!
    05-12-2015 07:30 AM
  14. tgp's Avatar
    Actually that's the true issue, don't you guys feel by ignoring windows phone platform google is against net neutrality by forcing people not to choose windows platform if they want to enjoy their own services?
    Now you sound like John Chen!

    Also Google isn't an advocate of net neutrality. Neither is Nokia.
    Right, it's the underdogs who are in favor of it.
    05-12-2015 07:32 AM
  15. DCTF's Avatar
    You have no proof of that at all. That's speculation. You're wanting me to spend money on the possibility of that?
    So there's no point in having this conversation at all then, right? Come back in a year's time to have this chat if you want proof that anything's changed. Then one side can win and one can lose. If you won't accept any speculation or abstract thought, the topic is academic.

    I think you've got some good points, but I suspect you're very unusual in only using one app. I don't think of myself as a person who uses a lot of apps and I try to keep my number down to preserve as much space as possible for 320kb/s music files, but my Store history says I've installed 212 apps from the store, and including the system apps I seem to have about 130 installed at the moment (gave up counting when I hit 100 somewhere in the Ns of my A-Z).
    Residing likes this.
    05-12-2015 07:43 AM
  16. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    So there's no point in having this conversation at all then, right? Come back in a year's time to have this chat if you want proof that anything's changed. Then one side can win and one can lose. If you won't accept any speculation or abstract thought, the topic is academic.

    I think you've got some good points, but I suspect you're very unusual in only using one app. I don't think of myself as a person who uses a lot of apps and I try to keep my number down to preserve as much space as possible for 320kb/s music files, but my Store history says I've installed 212 apps from the store, and including the system apps I seem to have about 130 installed at the moment (gave up counting when I hit 100 somewhere in the Ns of my A-Z).
    Just so I'm clear here. Are you referring to Windows 8.1 (not phone) apps? Because that's what I was talking about.
    Raj Poladia likes this.
    05-12-2015 07:49 AM
  17. Tsang Fai's Avatar
    I know what you mean and I understand. If you was a developer that develop apps for Windows desktop or mobile... The most important thing is obviously that one app will work for all devices. So less effort from you and more benefits in the long way. It is worth it because the market share will increase, not immediately but in the next year.
    Me too. I tend to be optimistic on the future Windows Phone/Windows Store.

    Whether Win10 will be successful is not a "yes" or "no" question. We should ask how likely Win10 would be successful.

    Whether developers will port their apps to W10 is not a "yes" or "no" question. We should ask how many developers will consider porting apps. We should ask what apps are most likely to be ported. (No one would care those rubbish apps being ported to WP. No thanks. Only a small % of apps are really cool & useful)

    And it is simple-minded to ask people to give "proof" of the success of Win10. At least what Msft will do for Win10 makes much sense.

    We should not just look at WP. Consider the growing usage of Windows tablets, the shift from desktop programs to universal apps, we can forsee that the Windows Store will play a more important role for Windows users. Even for non-WP Windows users, they will have more exposure to Windows Store. It is evident that Msft is trying to shift the traditional desktop programs ecosystem to the universal desktop applications ecosystem.

    Win10 is a bunch of new concepts/frameworks/features which together will have a positive impact on the growth of Windows Store. And I believe Msft is not taking a passive role to "wait" for developers to make apps for Win10 - as what we see from the Build, Msft is working closely with many major app developers. I am optimistic to see that the launch of Win10 will start with a pretty nice collection of cool apps - let's wait and see :)

    It is nave to say 3% is a small market. We are talking about mobile market. 3% of a super huge market is still a very big market.
    05-12-2015 07:54 AM
  18. Raj Poladia's Avatar
    I think you misunderstand net neutrality. It's about IPS controlling content.

    Also Google isn't an advocate of net neutrality. Neither is Nokia.

    You can still use some of Google services on WP and you can use them on your desktop PC if you have one.

    It would be an issue if your ISP/carrier blocked you from MS and only allowed Google forcing you to get an Android phone. That's where net neutrality comes in.
    I didn't mean that, I just meant Google is internet company, they are providing their services on all platforms but not for windows then this is indirectly against freedom of people to select what ever platform they want to enjoy specific services. Now if I want to enjoy all the services from google then I must have android, but if you want all services of Microsoft eg office Skype office 365,etc all are available on android iOS and Android and are being updated with the latest features that are on the windows and windows phone, so this should be companies policies that their users should have freedom to use their services from whatever devices they want and not only through what the company supports talking about major services (YouTube gmail google maps)
    05-12-2015 07:59 AM
  19. hotphil's Avatar
    I didn't mean that, I just meant Google is internet company, they are providing their services on all platforms but not for windows then this is indirectly against freedom of people to select what ever platform they want to enjoy specific services. Now if I want to enjoy all the services from google then I must have android, but if you want all services of Microsoft eg office Skype office 365,etc all are available on android iOS and Android and are being updated with the latest features that are on the windows and windows phone, so this should be companies policies that their users should have freedom to use their services from whatever devices they want and not only through what the company supports talking about major services (YouTube gmail google maps)
    Google aren't an internet company. They're an advertising company. And in order to advertise to you, they want all your data. All of it. Not just the lesser amount they can get from you using their services on other platforms. Thus, to ensure they get quality data on you and your habits, they're only interested in offering services on platforms where they can get everything they want, when they want it.
    Companies are businesses, not charities. Giving people "freedom" to use their services on other platforms suits Microsoft's business model (as they're a technology company) but not Google's.​
    05-12-2015 08:04 AM
  20. DCTF's Avatar
    Just so I'm clear here. Are you referring to Windows 8.1 (not phone) apps? Because that's what I was talking about.
    They're both. I mean, there's not really any such thing as "a Windows 10 app" right now, given that W10 isn't released. I installed the WP test build when it became available for my phone, went back to 8.1, and just this morning put WP10 back in the hope that we're getting a significant update this week.

    In that sense, you'd say all my apps are 8.1, I guess. Been on the WP OS for about two years now.
    05-12-2015 08:07 AM
  21. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I didn't mean that, I just meant Google is internet company, they are providing their services on all platforms but not for windows then this is indirectly against freedom of people to select what ever platform they want to enjoy specific services. Now if I want to enjoy all the services from google then I must have android, but if you want all services of Microsoft eg office Skype office 365,etc all are available on android iOS and Android and are being updated with the latest features that are on the windows and windows phone, so this should be companies policies that their users should have freedom to use their services from whatever devices they want and not only through what the company supports talking about major services (YouTube gmail google maps)
    Go read about it will you? You obviously have no idea what net neutrality is. I have a feeling a lot of people don't and wouldn't be surprised if it's been misrepresented in articles as well.
    05-12-2015 08:09 AM
  22. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    They're both. I mean, there's not really any such thing as "a Windows 10 app" right now, given that W10 isn't released. I installed the WP test build when it became available for my phone, went back to 8.1, and just this morning put WP10 back in the hope that we're getting a significant update this week.

    In that sense, you'd say all my apps are 8.1, I guess. Been on the WP OS for about two years now.
    I think you may be confused still. Allow me to clarify further. I am not talking about the mobile OS when I made that statement. I was referring to the desktop OS. On mobile I use many apps as well, you'd be crazy not to. On desktop I've only used one Store app for any length of time. I use many desktop programs. Depends on your general idea of what an app is.

    When I say W8.1 or Windows 8.1 I refer to the desktop OS. When I say WP or Windows Phone 8.1 I refer to the mobile platform. Until W10 comes out they are essentially different OSs.

    I hope that is more clear?

    I think I understand better the confusion people get now with all the similar names....
    05-12-2015 08:15 AM
  23. DCTF's Avatar
    ..
    Ahhh, okay. Sorry for getting mixed up.
    05-12-2015 08:18 AM
  24. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Ahhh, okay. Sorry for getting mixed up.
    Hopefully my other points in the rest of my posts make more sense now? :)

    No worries. I was starting to wonder if I was losing my ability to communicate. :P
    05-12-2015 08:23 AM
  25. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Me too. I tend to be optimistic on the future Windows Phone/Windows Store.

    Whether Win10 will be successful is not a "yes" or "no" question. We should ask how likely Win10 would be successful.

    Whether developers will port their apps to W10 is not a "yes" or "no" question. We should ask how many developers will consider porting apps. We should ask what apps are most likely to be ported. (No one would care those rubbish apps being ported to WP. No thanks. Only a small % of apps are really cool & useful)

    And it is simple-minded to ask people to give "proof" of the success of Win10. At least what Msft will do for Win10 makes much sense.

    We should not just look at WP. Consider the growing usage of Windows tablets, the shift from desktop programs to universal apps, we can forsee that the Windows Store will play a more important role for Windows users. Even for non-WP Windows users, they will have more exposure to Windows Store. It is evident that Msft is trying to shift the traditional desktop programs ecosystem to the universal desktop applications ecosystem.

    Win10 is a bunch of new concepts/frameworks/features which together will have a positive impact on the growth of Windows Store. And I believe Msft is not taking a passive role to "wait" for developers to make apps for Win10 - as what we see from the Build, Msft is working closely with many major app developers. I am optimistic to see that the launch of Win10 will start with a pretty nice collection of cool apps - let's wait and see :)

    It is nave to say 3% is a small market. We are talking about mobile market. 3% of a super huge market is still a very big market.
    3% is tiny. If it was worth anything WP would not be losing apps or not having developers not update their apps. Would you like to try that again?

    I'm not bagging W10 in anyway. Let's be clear. Nor am I saying that W10 isn't good or won't get new users. I was only coming from the point of developers and what advantage there is for them. I only have the stats for WP of 3% I don't know what the usage of Windows 8.1 Store is. I don't think it's very large but I could be wrong. Not even sure where to get it.

    What my point has been is this. It's very easy to talk big numbers when you throw Windows Desktop OS into the picture but the question remains. How many use the app Store? Is it worth for a developer to make an app if the numbers are low? Will desktop users change the way they use Windows? Is there and advantage for app developers here or are we just hoping?

    Anyway, this is far off the OP now. Didn't mean for it to go there.
    05-12-2015 08:37 AM
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