05-15-2015 09:46 PM
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  1. Raj Poladia's Avatar
    Hopefully my other points in the rest of my posts make more sense now? :)

    No worries. I was starting to wonder if I was losing my ability to communicate. :P
    I know what net neutrality is, and don't act like you know every thing.
    05-12-2015 08:41 AM
  2. Pete's Avatar
    Actually that's the true issue, don't you guys feel by ignoring windows phone platform google is against net neutrality by forcing people not to choose windows platform if they want to enjoy their own services?
    I know what net neutrality is, and don't act like you know every thing.
    Net Neutrality as we know it only applies to governments and internet service providers. Google is neither of these entities, so isn't govern by Net Neutrality (although can affected by Net Neutrality in the same was as any other SaaS corporation).

    I think you're confusing Net Neutrality with Platform Agnostics.
    tgp, N_LaRUE and Laura Knotek like this.
    05-12-2015 08:47 AM
  3. DCTF's Avatar
    Hopefully my other points in the rest of my posts make more sense now? :)

    No worries. I was starting to wonder if I was losing my ability to communicate. :P
    Ha ha! No, I was just diving between my work and reading forums, and lost the ability to read :)

    I think the desktop store has the potential to become bigger, but it comes with so much mistrust. People are extremely edgy about the future of Windows as a subscription service. They panicked (understandably) when Windows 8 first appeared, looking like it was making a console of their PC.

    But in order for Windows desktop apps to break out of their prison, MS needs all of us to regain the original meaning of "app" as any program on the computer, a meaning that's been in decline since the iPhone redefined the primary understanding of the term. To do that, the app store needs to be "bigger" in Windows. We need to be encouraged to visit and use it, but if they push us there, a lot of us are going to react badly because our "closed system" alarm bells will start ringing. The moment we start seeing "Windows Store exclusives" for things like the PC version of Photoshop, MS will have stepped into a dangerous area. They'll need to prove, like Steam did, that the pricing and convenience of their store represents something better than the old way.

    I think the Universal App idea is something of a masterstroke for that reason, even if it is something of a gamble. If MS can show that its x% share of Windows Phone users are having an especially good time with their combined mobile/desktop apps, and if the uptake for Windows 10 is as fast and significant as MS expects it to be, then there could be a nice circular trade-off where the phones and the desktop app store help to sell each other. I'm not expecting crazy gains, but I do think it could provide a slow and steady lift in fortunes for both sides of the company.
    05-12-2015 08:49 AM
  4. tgp's Avatar
    then there could be a nice circular trade-off where the phones and the desktop app store help to sell each other.
    There's still a caveat here though; counting all devices, Windows accounts for 14% of total market share, according to Satya Nadella in July 2014.

    Nadella acknowledged the disparity between Microsofts market share in the declining PC business90%and its market share in a computing business that has quickly been dominated by mobile devices. (Microsoft enjoys just 14% share across all devices, he conceded.)
    Even throwing in PCs doesn't make it overwhelming.
    05-12-2015 08:55 AM
  5. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I know what net neutrality is, and don't act like you know every thing.
    You're right, I don't know everything but I took the time to learn what it is before I made dumb *** statements.
    05-12-2015 08:59 AM
  6. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Ha ha! No, I was just diving between my work and reading forums, and lost the ability to read :)

    I think the desktop store has the potential to become bigger, but it comes with so much mistrust. People are extremely edgy about the future of Windows as a subscription service. They panicked (understandably) when Windows 8 first appeared, looking like it was making a console of their PC.

    But in order for Windows desktop apps to break out of their prison, MS needs all of us to regain the original meaning of "app" as any program on the computer, a meaning that's been in decline since the iPhone redefined the primary understanding of the term. To do that, the app store needs to be "bigger" in Windows. We need to be encouraged to visit and use it, but if they push us there, a lot of us are going to react badly because our "closed system" alarm bells will start ringing. The moment we start seeing "Windows Store exclusives" for things like the PC version of Photoshop, MS will have stepped into a dangerous area. They'll need to prove, like Steam did, that the pricing and convenience of their store represents something better than the old way.

    I think the Universal App idea is something of a masterstroke for that reason, even if it is something of a gamble. If MS can show that its x% share of Windows Phone users are having an especially good time with their combined mobile/desktop apps, and if the uptake for Windows 10 is as fast and significant as MS expects it to be, then there could be a nice circular trade-off where the phones and the desktop app store help to sell each other. I'm not expecting crazy gains, but I do think it could provide a slow and steady lift in fortunes for both sides of the company.
    I think if Store apps develop a 'Windows' integrated app feel and acts 'normal' than I think there's a higher chance of success but since I planned to wait for W10 RTM because I only have one laptop to determine how things are, I can't say one way or the other if they've managed to do that. The Store apps as they are in W8.1 is not what I want in W10 and I think many people would agree with me on that.

    It all needs to feel the same and feel like you're always using one system. If W10 doesn't succeed with that feel then I doubt many users will take up Store apps and I doubt the developers will come. That's the situation as it stands for me.
    Poirots Progeny and DCTF like this.
    05-12-2015 09:06 AM
  7. DCTF's Avatar
    There's still a caveat here though; counting all devices, Windows accounts for 14% of total market share, according to Satya Nadella in July 2014.



    Even throwing in PCs doesn't make it overwhelming.
    Yeah. For once in the life of Windows, I think it all hangs on the aesthetics of Windows 10. If people like the look of it enough - if they've succeeded in making the most modern-looking, classy OS out there, which is a matter only the users can decide - then I think it's got a big future. Apple isn't winning, but it is as successful as it needs to be, and that power came through offering a certain atmosphere. That's what Windows has to hope for: that users will want to use Edge because it preserves the W10 look across their system; that they will see WP as more of an attraction in terms of a computing "set"; that they will see Windows as a design language and as an environment.

    I worry a bit about the technical preview for this reason. I think it looks good on desktops, but it feels like it's a punch away from being a truly knockout design. It's making too many concessions to the past, even flirting with Aero (which I think ruins the smart, Swiss-inspired design they were leaning towards). Nonetheless, I do think it looks considerably better than OSX, which is looking very old-fashioned and even a bit tacky to me, so it's got the potential to take that spot.
    05-12-2015 09:12 AM
  8. DCTF's Avatar
    I think if Store apps develop a 'Windows' integrated app feel and acts 'normal' than I think there's a higher chance of success but since I planned to wait for W10 RTM because I only have one laptop to determine how things are, I can't say one way or the other if they've managed to do that. The Store apps as they are in W8.1 is not what I want in W10 and I think many people would agree with me on that.

    It all needs to feel the same and feel like you're always using one system. If W10 doesn't succeed with that feel then I doubt many users will take up Store apps and I doubt the developers will come. That's the situation as it stands for me.
    That does appear to be the intention. Win8.1 apps looked terrible on desktop PCs: text too large, enforced fullscreen, and generally poorly designed. The promotion for Win10 shows the apps working windowed as part of the desktop environment, just like a normal program. To make them work on mobile and desktop, the apps appear to be using a modular construction, a bit like the way responsive web design allows elements to reform and rearrange to fit different dimensions. I don't think we'll see any of that tablet feel in W10's apps.
    05-12-2015 09:28 AM
  9. Tsang Fai's Avatar
    3% is tiny. If it was worth anything WP would not be losing apps or not having developers not update their apps. Would you like to try that again?

    I'm not bagging W10 in anyway. Let's be clear. Nor am I saying that W10 isn't good or won't get new users. I was only coming from the point of developers and what advantage there is for them. I only have the stats for WP of 3% I don't know what the usage of Windows 8.1 Store is. I don't think it's very large but I could be wrong. Not even sure where to get it.

    What my point has been is this. It's very easy to talk big numbers when you throw Windows Desktop OS into the picture but the question remains. How many use the app Store? Is it worth for a developer to make an app if the numbers are low? Will desktop users change the way they use Windows? Is there and advantage for app developers here or are we just hoping?

    Anyway, this is far off the OP now. Didn't mean for it to go there.
    You are trying to exaggerate the negative side of Windows Phone.

    And you are trying to exaggerate the low percentage of WP share. So according to your logic, no company would ever succeed because every company has to start with zero market share. According to your logic, WP will stay below 3% for ever and ever regardless of the improvements made in W10.

    You are looking at Windows Store like a "chicken and egg" problem. (3% ==> no one cares ==> no one makes apps / no one buys WP ==> cannot go beyond 3% ==> no one cares ....)

    And you are viewing Windows 10 as either "success" or "failure".
    (no "proof" for success = "failure"???)

    I think many people here have already posted some relevant points supporting possible benefits Win10 will bring to the Windows ecosystem. But you keep on repeatedly questioning "Is it worth...", "Will desktop users change the way...", "Is there any advantage for app developers...."

    While some people may be too optimistic, you seem to be over-pessimistic on Windows Store.
    05-12-2015 09:50 AM
  10. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    You are trying to exaggerate the negative side of Windows Phone.

    And you are trying to exaggerate the low percentage of WP share. So according to your logic, no company would ever succeed because every company has to start with zero market share. According to your logic, WP will stay below 3% for ever and ever regardless of the improvements made in W10.

    You are looking at Windows Store like a "chicken and egg" problem. And you are viewing Windows 10 as either "success" or "failure".


    I think many people here have already posted some relevant points supporting possible benefits Win10 will bring to the Windows ecosystem. But you keep on repeatedly questioning "Is it worth...", "Will desktop users change the way...", "Is there any advantage for app developers...."

    While some people may be too optimistic, you seem to be over-pessimistic on Windows Store.
    Just playing devils advocate and taking an ROI stance.

    The only way for W10 to succeed is for the desktop app situation to work smoothly. I'm not saying it is or isn't at this stage. I'll wait for RTM.

    I hope probably more than most here that this is the solution and good things come to Windows in general. It is a risk and no developer is going to jump on board immediately. I know it might not seem like I want good things but I want people to stop thinking it's all sunshine when it isn't.

    I am not over emphasising anything with regards to WP. Apps have been pulled. Development has stopped with some apps and some apps have never come at all. This is the reality of WP the whole time I've been on it and watching it. Yes, 3% is tiny in this market. Sorry if that offends but it's reality. If it meant something WP would be in a better position.

    W10 is the make or break point for WP as far as I'm concerned. If they can't attract developers with this then what's left really? That's been my point.
    05-12-2015 09:59 AM
  11. Raj Poladia's Avatar
    You're right, I don't know everything but I took the time to learn what it is before I made dumb *** statements.
    I just tried to compare it with net neutrality nothing else and if felt bad about my last reply then don't be because I was not at all angry but at least mind your language and also we are neither friends nor known to each other so it would be better if you just use better words.... And yes I think you are right it not at all related to net neutrality
    tgp likes this.
    05-12-2015 10:13 AM
  12. FindleInClev's Avatar
    I'm all for the idea of universal apps. I'm all for the idea of Continuum. I'm just taking a developer point of view here. I'm trying to remove people's rose tinted glasses. It's all great stuff but how do you see this attracting developers?
    I saw Mary Joe Foley's interview with the MS Devs on Channel 9 from Build and she posed that question directly to them. One of the interesting things they mentioned is that they can now offer all of their crazy Azure services as part of a package deal, and I think that is going to be a big strategy going forward. So forget the money directly dealing with users, but the discounts of hosting, data warehousing, BI, SQL services, etc, that MS can offer at deep discounts as part of negotiating to get app deals. And then you throw in the Android/IOS compilers they can offer, it's all part of the value proposition they can bring to companies.

    So yes, the marketshare isn't there to attract automatically, but you throw in really cutting hosting/data costs of running a modern application across all platforms, and that could be significant.

    But I do agree, unfortunately, esp. when it comes to the immediate future for WP here in the US and West, I don't see things changing much - in fact I think MS has pretty much come to the conclusion that for this generation, high end phones are a lost cause, but 'Windows Mobile' is really more about making small tablets more appealing. After being with WP since day 1, I'll be moving to a LG G4 here shortly.

    I can only hope things can turn around and there is a WP to return to in the next year and a half or so.
    05-12-2015 10:17 AM
  13. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    Every company is selfish and self serving, that business. Google doesn't like/hates Microsoft and that's not unwarranted or irrational. They have some amazing services, and Microsoft has some pretty good services aswell. If Google chooses not to support Microsoft platform, that is their right.
    Of course its their right. Just as it would be anyone's right to despise <insert any ethnic/religious group>. But I think Tsang's point is even if its their right, its a good practice to shun people/companies who behave that way JUST because they behave that way.
    05-12-2015 12:55 PM
  14. tgp's Avatar
    But I think Tsang's point is even if its their right, its a good practice to shun people/companies who behave that way JUST because they behave that way.
    And that is your right. Google knows that a few might do that. They also know that the number who do it will be insignificant.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    05-12-2015 01:18 PM
  15. Jaredallister's Avatar
    Yes it is 100% within someone right to hate <insert literally anything/anyone/anywhere here>. Doesn't mean it the right thing to do, nor is it any less ignorant to do to. But in term of this tread and Google, it is the right business decision to leave Windows Phone out.
    05-12-2015 01:26 PM
  16. Wurstsalat's Avatar
    nope there will be no proper Google apps until Windows for phones has 40% market share
    05-12-2015 02:30 PM
  17. scavira's Avatar
    Is there any developer here who has already worked on Universal apps?
    05-13-2015 04:47 AM
  18. Pete's Avatar
    I believe that LaRue was referring to Windows Store apps in terms of numbers. No one is saying that Windows 10 will fail - Windows is still the most widely used OS by a wide margin.

    Windows Store apps are the limiting factor here.
    N_LaRUE likes this.
    05-13-2015 04:55 AM
  19. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I believe that LaRue was referring to Windows Store apps in terms of numbers. No one is saying that Windows 10 will fail - Windows is still the most widely used OS by a wide margin.

    Windows Store apps are the limiting factor here.
    Correct.

    I can't seem to see the quoted text by the other person...
    05-13-2015 05:01 AM
  20. Pete's Avatar
    I can't seem to see the quoted text by the other person...
    Scavira edited his post and my reply has now lost context.
    05-13-2015 05:08 AM
  21. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Scavira edited his post and my reply has now lost context.
    Thanks for the clarification. :) I thought it might have been something like that.

    Hate when that happens. :P
    05-13-2015 05:21 AM
  22. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I just tried to compare it with net neutrality nothing else and if felt bad about my last reply then don't be because I was not at all angry but at least mind your language and also we are neither friends nor known to each other so it would be better if you just use better words.... And yes I think you are right it not at all related to net neutrality
    I was not angry either just making a point that I actually read about things before making statements. I don't claim to know everything but I am happy to learn. I'm also happy to have people point out when I might be wrong as well.

    I like a good argument sometimes. Unfortunately not many people get that. The PC world... sigh.

    Don't fret about it.
    05-13-2015 05:30 AM
  23. somhom's Avatar
    "net neutrality" ??? that's Imaginary Fancy Crap invented by stupid people !!!!!!
    05-13-2015 06:59 AM
  24. Raj Poladia's Avatar
    "net neutrality" ??? that's Imaginary Fancy Crap invented by stupid people !!!!!!
    Oh so you think that's not at all serious topic, good for you.
    05-13-2015 09:30 AM
  25. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Oh so you think that's not at all serious topic, good for you.
    It's a very important topic if you ask me. I guess some people don't understand the seriousness behind it. I was going to say something but I didn't want to argue any more.

    If people want monopolies controlling their content that's their prerogative I guess.
    Last edited by N_LaRUE; 05-13-2015 at 02:12 PM.
    Raj Poladia, RumoredNow and Joe920 like this.
    05-13-2015 10:43 AM
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