View Poll Results: Is using Hamburger Menu counter one handed use for you?

Voters
38. You may not vote on this poll
  • Agree

    23 60.53%
  • Disagree

    15 39.47%
05-04-2016 09:37 AM
120 ... 2345
tools
  1. a5cent's Avatar
    He said:
    I don't see any major issue for single handed use in W10.
    Which somebody disagreed with, to which you responded:
    He is actually right though...
    Now you're saying:
    I never said there wasn't a single handed issue on windows 10 because...
    Except you literally said he was right in saying so...

    I don't know if you've changed your mind, or your post didn't reflect what you were actually thinking, but it's one or the other...

    Let's call it a misunderstanding and move on...
    colinkiama likes this.
    07-09-2015 08:35 AM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    Microsoft always over reacts and tends to cull an entire jungle only to start a fresh from one meagre sap.
    Absolutely!

    In a results orientated business or rather with a results orientated CEO, you can't keep doing the same thing over and over again.
    Agree completely.

    Something had to give and that is unfortunately the very design principles that...
    This is where you lose me.

    I think we both agree that MS throwing out their current UI paradigms and starting anew is precisely another example of the overreaction you mentioned. We also agree that something must give, but why is it the UI that is the best candidate for doing that "giving"? I don't think you've adequately answered that question.

    I think you're taking that change in UI to represent far more of a change than it actually does.

    From W10M on out, MS is restricting most of WP's UI to doing as iOS does, in most cases hopefully not worse, but unlikely ever any better. This represents the continued removal of differentiators and worse, further limits MS' ability to innovate in ways that are more meaningful than just aesthetics (if MS' app strategy requires them to be as similar to iOS as possible, they can't innovate beyond what iOS does). This is in fact exactly what MS has been doing, bit by bit, ever since WP8.0! Every major change starting with WP8.0 has been about:

    a) removing differentiators that are unique to WP
    b) adding concepts that are strongly inspired by iOS/Android and
    c) backtracking on anything that might be unfamiliar to iOS/Android users.

    Yes, W10M is introducing a different UI, but the underlying principles I just mentioned, the principles driving those changes, are the same ones that have been driving WP ever since WP8.0! These principles matter far more than the actual changes themselves. I think this begs the question why we should expect more of these type of changes, to have any more of a positive affect in this round, than they've had in the last few rounds?

    What MS needs is not a change in UI, but a change in guiding principles! Rather than more of the above, MS needs to be bold, provide inspirational solutions, and have the balls to plot their own path without always meekly looking towards Apple and Google! That would be an actual change, and something WP hasn't actually tried since WP7.

    On the flip side, Microsoft is more than likely in "shut up and ship" mode with all hands on deck as the next few months are pretty damn important to them therefore they can't afford any minor hiccups PR wise.
    Which would be the same mistake they've made before. It was their shut up and ship ideology which, in part, contributed to them not being able to hear the markets reaction to W8 and basically sank it before it even hit the market.

    I agree in regards to your last point however the main "bridge" tools project astoria (android) & project islandwood(ios) are not available to the general public yet. Furthermore there haven't been many leaks in the wild either which would explain why there hasn't been much talk in the media about this side of the spectrum.
    I was not referring to Astoria or Islandwood. Both of those require the source code of either an iOS app or an Android app as a starting point, from which you can derive a WP app. IMHO neither of them are important enough to legitimize these UI changes.

    I'm talking about the ability to write a single app, in one language, with one library, from which you can directly compile a native app for any of the three platforms. The existence of that type of technology within MS could convince me that these UI changes are worth it. Short of that, I'd say these UI changes are more likely an inconsequential waste of engineering efforts.
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-09-2015 at 10:16 AM. Reason: spelling
    07-09-2015 09:16 AM
  3. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Using the UI as a differentiator is really stupid. The UI has to be transparent to the user, hopefully without any learning curve. People don't buy a smartphone for the UI, only a geek would do that. The only reason to diverge from the dominant paradigms is the introduction of a big innovation, for example, the iPhone.

    Besides, Metro is a poorly designed UI better suited for feature phones.
    07-09-2015 11:47 AM
  4. white_Shadoww's Avatar
    Using the UI as a differentiator is really stupid. The UI has to be transparent to the user, hopefully without any learning curve. People don't buy a smartphone for the UI, only a geek would do that. The only reason to diverge from the dominant paradigms is the introduction of a big innovation, for example, the iPhone.

    Besides, Metro is a poorly designed UI better suited for feature phones.
    Well as long as I know people, that's like 22 years of my life, I know that people tend to attract to the things that look pretty!
    Kram Sacul, Kevin Rush and Mach_E like this.
    07-09-2015 12:26 PM
  5. Snowy Nokia's Avatar
    Love how I see this thread getting heated! But let's get back to the basics...

    UI/UX.
    What can we, the community can suggest and discuss methods of better implementations of our up an coming mobile OS at its currently state of course.
    Hamburgers NOT going away it seems so battling against it ain't going to help.
    What ideas you/we suggest and request via windows insider program will help.
    Ellipsis, pivot, panorama, and app bar still exists across the OS currently it seems but just differently.

    Why fight it? I say challenge ourselves and Microsoft for a better experience.

    I'll start off FIRST(with more to come) with this:
    Hamburger plus ellipsis....use it together, for example: Hamburger IS not one handed accessible but ellipsis "..." IS.
    I'd personally like it to work together.
    Allow ellipsis"..." as a toggle to open our hamburger menu hence "reachability"
    I currently will not accept a swipe method for our hamburger menu due to the panorama use is still widely used across the OS and native apps.

    What are your feedback!
    colinkiama and Kevin Rush like this.
    07-09-2015 02:31 PM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ I apologize for going a bit off topic

    I also want to point out that what you're interested in discussing has already been discussed a million times in these forums. I'm not sure how many people are interested in discussing that all over again. However, you can use the search function to look for "hamburger" and you'll find hundreds of related threads. Even if you don't get a lot of replies here, you'll still be able to get a lot of opinions on the matter.

    Good luck.
    07-09-2015 03:43 PM
  7. Snowy Nokia's Avatar
    Nonsense, we all go off tropic 😊
    Thx for the suggestion also.
    I just hope they are positive constructive criticism 😉
    a5cent and Kevin Rush like this.
    07-09-2015 03:48 PM
  8. TechFreak1's Avatar

    This is where you lose me.

    I think we both agree that MS throwing out their current UI paradigms and starting anew is precisely another example of the overreaction you mentioned. We also agree that something must give, but why is it the UI that is the best candidate for doing that "giving"? I don't think you've adequately answered that question.
    Ah, fair enough and I have no idea why Microsoft has chosen to butcher the UI in favour of android-esque approach. The only thing logical I can think off is that - they have gone for the "familiarity sell" approach to give those ios and android users what they are familiar with.


    I think you're taking that change in UI to represent far more of a change than it actually does.
    I am just looking at it from both perspectives, as a techie and from the average consumer's point of view or what they (MS) envisage as said consumers point of view may be. As the average consumer will not see beyond the UI unless they took the time out and did some digging themselves.


    From W10M on out, MS is restricting most of WP's UI to doing as iOS does, in most cases hopefully not worse, but unlikely ever any better. This represents the continued removal of differentiators and worse, further limits MS' ability to innovate in ways that are more meaningful than just aesthetics (if MS' app strategy requires them to be as similar to iOS as possible, they can't innovate beyond what iOS does). This is in fact exactly what MS has been doing, bit by bit, ever since WP8.0! Every major change starting with WP8.0 has been about:

    a) removing differentiators that are unique to WP
    b) adding concepts that are strongly inspired by iOS/Android and
    c) backtracking on anything that might be unfamiliar to iOS/Android users.
    I absolutely agree, and the last point is in essence what I'm saying - the key word being: familiarity


    Yes, W10M is introducing a different UI, but the underlying principles I just mentioned, the principles driving those changes, are the same ones that have been driving WP ever since WP8.0! These principles matter far more than the actual changes themselves. I think this begs the question why we should expect more of these type of changes, to have any more of a positive affect in this round, than they've had in the last few rounds?
    True, it's like leading a tired horse, no amount of persuasion will get it to move it faster than it's current speed of travel. Never the less "logic" and "Microsoft" more than often than not cannot be used in the same sentence.


    What MS needs is not a change in UI, but a change in guiding principles! Rather than more of the above, MS needs to be bold, provide inspirational solutions, and have the balls to plot their own path without always meekly looking towards Apple and Google! That would be an actual change, and something WP hasn't actually tried since WP7.
    Spot on.

    The problem is they are trying to make everyone happy and that is impossible as not everyone knows what they want. If everyone was so-matter-of-fact in nature the world would be quite boring in my opinion.


    Which would be the same mistake they've made before. It was their shut up and ship ideology which, in part, contributed to them not being able to hear the markets reaction to W8 and basically sank it before it even hit the market.
    There is one key difference here, with Windows 8 we only had two to three consumer previews whereas with Windows 10 they have opened up and have given insights and access to earlier bits of the development process. That is a really good thing as some of the features that they felt could be implemented later, would have been brought forward due to user feedback.

    However on the flipside some features which were planned to be implemented at release may have been put to one side whilst they brought forward the requested features, some of the iced features may have elevated the o/s to the next level for some - who knows.

    I was not referring to Astoria or Islandwood. Both of those require the source code of either an iOS app or an Android app as a starting point, from which you can derive a WP app. IMHO neither of them are important enough to legitimize these UI changes.

    I'm talking about the ability to write a single app, in one language, with one library, from which you can directly compile a native app for any of the three platforms. The existence of that type of technology within MS could convince me that these UI changes are worth it. Short of that, I'd say these UI changes are more likely an inconsequential waste of engineering efforts.
    I see, that's what you meant and I totally agree. Much ado about nothing.

    In a perfect world the other competing platforms would also use the same language & library for that approach to work . Unfortunately for us it is not so rosy as Apple and Google will continue down their road map - as after all they are the incumbent and Microsoft is the challenger, in the desktop space it's the other way round.

    Furthermore invariably people will complain that this one language approach is far too draconian and the media, inevitably will draw comparisons to what has happened historically around the world.

    To surmise, I feel that both of us are essentially saying the same thing albeit differently and looking at it from a different angles & perspectives.

    Anyway, I hold my hands up and appologise for going off topic as well .
    a5cent and Laura Knotek like this.
    07-09-2015 04:50 PM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    In a perfect world the other competing platforms would also use the same language & library for that approach to work . Unfortunately for us it is not so rosy as Apple and Google will continue down their road map - as after all they are the incumbent and Microsoft is the challenger, in the desktop space it's the other way round.
    We already have such technologies however. Xamarin is the most notable example, with which MS entered into a strategic partnership last year. If MS were to integrate this deeply into VS and fill out the missing features, they'd probably already have achieved that goal.

    What development technologies Apple and Google use don't matter. "All" you need is a lot of smart framework and C# cross-compiler developers.

    Anyway, thanks' for the interesting discussion. Take care!
    TechFreak1 likes this.
    07-09-2015 05:01 PM
  10. shmaun's Avatar
    I got 2 crazy ideas for the hamburger:

    1. Get a 4th button on the phones - back, hamburger, start and search. (not sure how to handle old phones) Maybe start button opens hamburger menu, double tap goes back to start screen?

    2. Move the whole top menu bar to the bottom. It works for the edge browser (so glad they did that) but could create a fair bit of eye movement for other apps. It would take a little to get used to but may work

    3. Have the hamburger button right or left selectable on the top menu bar via settings. Easiest to implement from their side. Not great but better than nothing.
    07-25-2015 02:30 PM
  11. iHeartBretski's Avatar
    Is there swipe options to open the menu? If there is then one handed is fine. Coming from Android that would be easy. It seems to me that without swipe is where two hands becomes more needed. I use my phone one handed all the time.
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    07-26-2015 03:17 AM
  12. colinkiama's Avatar
    Is there swipe options to open the menu? If there is then one handed is fine. Coming from Android that would be easy. It seems to me that without swipe is where two hands becomes more needed. I use my phone one handed all the time.
    Nope but if your screen is 5+ inches. Hold the Windows button. The hamburger button will be way easier to tap
    07-26-2015 05:24 AM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    Nope but if your screen is 5+ inches. Hold the Windows button. The hamburger button will be way easier to tap
    That we're accepting this as a solution shows how low we've fallen. It's a very cumbersome and inelegant "solution" to a problem that shouldn't even exist, and theoretically wouldn't have to exist as there are plenty of better ways to make the UI one-hand friendly (both Android and WP8.1 have far better solutions to this problem, not to mention a dozen other options nobody yet uses).

    It's like taking aspirin to cure cancer. It can make some of the pain go away, but it doesn't address the actual problem in any way. That's why this isn't a feature. At best it's a workaround for a UI design bug.
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-26-2015 at 06:44 AM. Reason: spelling
    07-26-2015 06:12 AM
  14. colinkiama's Avatar
    That we're accepting this as a solution shows how low we've fallen. It's a very cumbersome and inelegant "solution" to a problem that shouldn't even exist, and theoretically wouldn't have to exist as there are plenty of better ways to make the UI one-hand friendly (both Android and WP8.1 have far better solutions to this problem, not to mention a dozen other options nobody yet uses).

    It's like taking aspirin to cure cancer. It can make some of the pain go away, but it doesn't address the actual problem in any way. That's why this isn't a feature. At best it's a workaround for a UI design bug.
    Plan B use your left hand.
    07-26-2015 02:49 PM
  15. anon(5725119)'s Avatar
    That we're accepting this as a solution shows how low we've fallen. It's a very cumbersome and inelegant "solution" to a problem that shouldn't even exist, and theoretically wouldn't have to exist as there are plenty of better ways to make the UI one-hand friendly (both Android and WP8.1 have far better solutions to this problem, not to mention a dozen other options nobody yet uses).

    It's like taking aspirin to cure cancer. It can make some of the pain go away, but it doesn't address the actual problem in any way. That's why this isn't a feature. At best it's a workaround for a UI design bug.
    You're right. But, I'm guessing the hamburgers have been added so that Android apps don't look so out of place when ported over. That's the only thing I can guess. I've never used an Android phone, but everyone says these hamburgers are an Android thing.

    And I also find it hard to believe that the design team at Microsoft would willingly go from pivots to hamburgers, thinking that it's an upgrade to the navigation model, given that pretty much no one prefers hamburgers. They're inferior, no doubt about it.

    Hamburgers have been universally panned. No one likes them. People hate them. There is obviously a reason why Microsoft persists. This is my guess at what their reason is.

    Having said all that, I would still prefer them to use no hamburgers in the OS. But if they INSIST, then they should be implemented better. Some of them are so poorly implemented at the moment.
    a5cent and Kevin Rush like this.
    07-26-2015 03:07 PM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    Plan B use your left hand.
    Has it not been sufficiently established by now, that this argument is as ridiculous as saying "plan B: use a cable phone"?

    ...that obviously just doesn't cut it. If MS were to release only wired smartphones from here on out, you probably wouldn't appreciate losing the freedom to roam about wherever you want while calling. Similarly, others appreciate the freedom of having one hand free for other tasks while operating the phone.

    It's about your ability to decide how to use your device, and the device being as flexible as possible in accommodating those preferences. That we have not yet advanced even to this level of understanding is sad...

    TBH, I don't even care that much about the single-handed issue itself. It does bug me that some of the arguments (on both sides) are still this superficial...
    Kram Sacul and Kevin Rush like this.
    07-26-2015 04:23 PM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    You're right. But, I'm guessing the hamburgers have been added so that Android apps don't look so out of place when ported over.
    I'm sure that's part of it, although even under the best of circumstances that attempt has no chance of being anything more than moderately successful. There are just too many different sources from where an app can originate (Android, iOS, WP), not to mention the complete change in W10M's UI look&feel, which will make even existing WP8.1 apps look out of place. The boat that would have allowed W10M to maintain any semblance of functional and stylistic consistency has sailed.

    That's why I think all these UI changes, including the hamburger, are more about developers than they are about user's aesthetical sensibilities. I mentioned what I would consider a worthy cause in post #77, but it remains to be seen what benefits we can expect to reap in return for the UI sacrifices being made.

    I'm sure you're right about MS also viewing many of these changes as sacrifices, but they obviously believe they are being made for the benefit of some greater good. So far, and admittedly based on limited knowledge, I think their approach is misguided, but I sincerely hope they prove me wrong...
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-26-2015 at 05:24 PM. Reason: spelling
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    07-26-2015 05:12 PM
  18. 4fool's Avatar
    Pivoting with text was what made Windows Phone unique, easy and pleasant to use. They could just have modified text to icons or text+icon as a preference. Instead they are moving to the unintuitive gesture unfriendly approach taken by iOS and Android by moving to Hamburger menus.

    Some apps still have the Pivots, and it is great to have them. Very inconsistent.

    If this OS is to succeed they should focus on gesture usability and force consistent UI design.
    Kevin Rush and a5cent like this.
    07-27-2015 12:47 AM
  19. 4fool's Avatar
    I'm getting quite tired of this complaint. It's constant, and it's pointless. Hamburger menus are here to stay. Microsoft has explained why they're here and why they're not going to change.
    Very few people actually use their phones one-handed anyways. In a world where phones are becoming larger and larger, one-handed usage is becoming less and less common.
    I'm perfectly fine with the hamburger menus. No, they're not perfect. They may not even be the best solution available. But they're here. They're not horrible, and it isn't going to affect Windows 10 Mobile adversely, since Android and iOS use them too. The only people who care about the hamburger menus seem to be Windows users with tiny hands. I'm sorry, but you're the minority.
    ​Quite a wrong attitude. If you have given up on the world, no need to discourage others. Let the Uservoices flow.

    I use a phablet (Note 2) - almost always 2 handed, and yet I don't like the hamburger on the Lumia 640. It is not a gesture friendly UI feature. Despite all the ballyhoo about Apples Human Interaction design creds, every time I use one of their devices, I find it cumbersome - it is based on touch. Windows Phone stood out because of the Panoramas, Pivots, and gesture friendly approach to User interaction. Now they are running away from that and aping iOS/Android. Copying them (saying that something is ok, because those 2 OSes have them) is a failing proposition. Differentiating with superior design is what is needed.

    Consistency of experience across devices is desired, but it is undeniable that each device (laptop, tablet, phone/phablet) has a different usability language that it understands best. Gestures win out on a phone/phablet over touching. Touching elements may be better on tablets in certain situations, but due to the size not the same on smaller devices.
    Kevin Rush, a5cent and Kram Sacul like this.
    07-27-2015 12:58 AM
  20. 4fool's Avatar
    Mobile websites shouldn't be the model for OS UI design. Also doing things differently doesn't have to mean doing it stupidly. I can understand that MS is desperate to get the ball rolling with WP/Mobile/whatever adoption but throwing away most of what is good about WP for bad designs isn't likely to change things. If anything it's just ticking off the current users who came to the platform because they liked the uniqueness and user friendliness of WP. We've lost the hubs, the stylish typography, the panoramic apps and now one handed use. A Google-less Android clone with tiles just isn't exciting to me.
    Hear, hear!
    Kevin Rush and a5cent like this.
    07-27-2015 01:01 AM
  21. colinkiama's Avatar
    I do wish Microsoft could just steal android's swipe from the left to reveal the Hamburger gesture. I'm sure that is not a bad compromise. Right?
    07-27-2015 04:45 PM
  22. Topataco's Avatar
    I do wish Microsoft could just steal android's swipe from the left to reveal the Hamburger gesture. I'm sure that is not a bad compromise. Right?
    I've been asking for this since I got my hands on the technical preview months ago and they /still/ haven't implemented it. It's stupid how they started to alienate their OWN users to appease people on OTHER platforms.
    07-27-2015 04:59 PM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    I do wish Microsoft could just steal android's swipe from the left to reveal the Hamburger gesture. I'm sure that is not a bad compromise. Right?
    That would at least put us on equal footing with Android, and personally, I would consider that much better than where it appears W10M is headed, but it would still be far from great.

    Although I wouldn't be satisfied by this, I suspect that would be acceptable to most.
    07-27-2015 06:47 PM
  24. Snowy Nokia's Avatar
    I do wish Microsoft could just steal android's swipe from the left to reveal the Hamburger gesture. I'm sure that is not a bad compromise. Right?
    I would not wish it upon windows mobile10, currently the user interface is at a lost. Pivots/panorama is still across the platform. How much swiping can it handle...
    Just my two cents...
    07-27-2015 07:35 PM
  25. iHeartBretski's Avatar
    Some apps seem to implement swipe though. In pocket casts there is a swipe to open the menu :) so maybe its just Microsoft that isn't doing it for their apps. (Which is ridiculous in itself).
    07-27-2015 07:36 PM
120 ... 2345

Similar Threads

  1. Why is there no sound for incoming calls and sms on my Nokia 720?
    By Windows Central Question in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-06-2015, 09:47 AM
  2. Intel's tiny Compute Stick goes up for sale in India for ?9,999
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-06-2015, 03:11 AM
  3. Latest Flipkart update for Windows Phone introduces image search
    By WindowsCentral.com in forum Windows Central News Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-05-2015, 11:42 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD