07-29-2015 06:26 AM
50 12
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  1. waazzupppp's Avatar
    Windows 10 is really great, but Microsoft had all the pieces almost ready to use, I don't know why it took them so long to deliver the OS. Conversely, Google developed Android so fast.
    Google developed Android FAST??? Seriously? They are on Version M - first release was C... That was 6 years ago, 2009, right? Android L was the first Google core change since 2009 (to contrast that, MS has done WM 6.5, 7.0, 8.0 and now 10 in the same time frame) and they didn't even get it right. There are loads of Apps that won't work on ART and issues galore with battery life and connectivity.

    That said, I would rather have MS get the features built into the system to make it work right rather than 'build it in later' since that has NEVER happened before. People are so quick to forget that starting from the ground up with a mobile OS is not easy and that's exactly what MS has done 3 times now. It's been a rough 4 years for Windows Phone fans, another couple of months won't really matter if the TP builds keep getting better and better along the way.
    mary beth hale and xandros9 like this.
    07-22-2015 08:28 AM
  2. tariqsaad16's Avatar
    Microsoft is developing WM10 with completely new code and google is just updating their Code and completing the alphabets. After android "Z" android will be finished.
    07-22-2015 10:56 AM
  3. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Actually, no. While I appreciate your frustration with wanting an instant Operating System (we all seem to want everything "right now") Windows 10 had to be done completely from scratch if it were to be leaner and be able to support so many different hardware platforms. There were no pieces in place for what Microsoft intended to accomplish except for the ideas. If Apple or Google wanted to take their OSes and make them one, they would have to start from scratch as well. It takes a long time to develop something like that.
    The unification of the Windows variants was mostly done at Windows 8, they shared the same kernel and 90% of the API surface. Windows 10 is mostly UI/UX changes.

    Take Android, for instance. You say "Google developed Android so fast." However, Google bought Android, Inc. Android was started in 2003. It was bought by Google in 2005. A public commercial release of Android was not available until September 23, 2008.
    Microsoft started Windows Mobile in the 90s.
    The thing is both companies, Google and Microsoft watched the historic iPhone presentation by Jobs and decided to change course. From that point which product evolved faster? The other one is still playing catch up.
    rhapdog likes this.
    07-22-2015 01:14 PM
  4. rhapdog's Avatar
    The unification of the Windows variants was mostly done at Windows 8, they shared the same kernel and 90% of the API surface. Windows 10 is mostly UI/UX changes.
    I'll have to research that. Source please? I'd love to read the history on it. I like that sort of thing.

    Microsoft started Windows Mobile in the 90s.
    The thing is both companies, Google and Microsoft watched the historic iPhone presentation by Jobs and decided to change course. From that point which product evolved faster? The other one is still playing catch up.
    Actually, both companies watched the historic iPhone presentation, but only Google changed course. Microsoft dismissed it thinking it would never amount to anything. That's why they've taken so long to catch up. This I do remember from reading about an interview to their reactions of the iPhone.

    Here's the thing, though... now that Windows 10 is coming out, it will be Apple and Google needing to play catch up.
    07-22-2015 02:35 PM
  5. Spectrum90's Avatar
    I'll have to research that. Source please? I'd love to read the history on it. I like that sort of thing.
    The Build 2014 keynote.

    Actually, both companies watched the historic iPhone presentation, but only Google changed course. Microsoft dismissed it thinking it would never amount to anything. That's why they've taken so long to catch up. This I do remember from reading about an interview to their reactions of the iPhone.

    Here's the thing, though... now that Windows 10 is coming out, it will be Apple and Google needing to play catch up.
    You mean this:


    That's the public reaction, BlackBerry's CEO did the same, I'm sure things were different internally. Although, even if they really thought the iPhone wasn't a good product at that time, their opinion must have changed in just a few months, the iPhone was an instant hit.
    rhapdog and xandros9 like this.
    07-22-2015 04:57 PM
  6. rhapdog's Avatar
    The Build 2014 keynote.
    I saw the 2015 keynote. I understood it to say it to say it was being re-written. It's possible I could have misunderstood something, I suppose. I'll watch it again since I have it saved to see what was said on it. I may have "assumed" during the presentation. It's been a while and I can't remember.

    I wasn't aware that Windows 10 was talked about in the 2014 Build Keynote. Then again, we didn't know it was going to be Windows 10, then, either.

    You mean the 2014 keynote specifically stated that Windows 10 would only be UI/UX changes on the code side? I think they were stating that it would be that as far as the consumer would notice. I'll have to download it this coming weekend when I get on Wi-Fi and try to get a chance to watch it next week. Yeah, I only have Wi-Fi access on Sundays when I travel an hour to church and spend the day with family. Just my mobile data plan the rest of the time. Gotta love tethering.
    07-22-2015 05:35 PM
  7. Spectrum90's Avatar
    I wasn't aware that Windows 10 was talked about in the 2014 Build Keynote. Then again, we didn't know it was going to be Windows 10, then, either.

    You mean the 2014 keynote specifically stated that Windows 10 would only be UI/UX changes on the code side?

    No, they won't say that, it's not good for the business. On the contrary, they're trying to sell Windows 10 as a big step forward and It's working because most people never used the disastrous 8.x product line. Although, Windows 10 is just the culmination of the work done in the last few years and most of the features and infrastructure were already deployed on WP or Windows 8.

    In Build 2014 they announced Universal Apps, since then WP and Windows share 90% of the API surface. The Windows variants share the same kernel since 8.0 (2012). So, the unification of the operating systems was mostly done.

    Windows 10 introduced minor refinements to Universal Apps. WP and Windows now share 95% of the API surface. The app stores were merged. The most interesting feature is Continuum for phones, the differentiator that depends on the unification work that only Microsoft has done.
    07-23-2015 02:33 PM
  8. Al4video's Avatar
    Sitting on the bench second guessing a company like you actually know something has got to be the safest sport in the world!!
    Skamath, rhapdog and xandros9 like this.
    07-23-2015 02:40 PM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    I saw the 2015 keynote. I understood it to say it was being re-written. It's possible I could have misunderstood something
    Yes, you misunderstood something there. Although I'm sure some parts have undergone major changes, no fundamental part of W10 has been thrown out and entirely rewritten from scratch.

    Windows Vista was the only time in recent history where MS threw out and rewrote from scratch fundamental parts of the OS. That's one of the reasons it took seven years to release Vista.

    You mean the 2014 keynote specifically stated that Windows 10 would only be UI/UX changes on the code side?
    Yeah, MS really didn't say that. That really would have countered MS' marketing message, but I'm thinking the primary reason for not saying it is because it's BS. Here's a more accurate description:

    MS has been on a path to OS unification ever since Vista. Up until W8.1 MS had achieved unification in two areas:

    A) Kernel

    Unification between phones, desktops and XB1 was achieved with W8/WP8.

    The kernel is a chunk of code around 20MB in size on disk. It is a very important, but also a very small part of the OS. It resides at the very bottom of the OS' software stack and can basically be thought of as a driver for the CPU.

    B) WinRT / WinPRT

    ~90% unification between phones and desktop achieved with W8.1/WP8.1.

    Note that unification refers to parts of the WinRT library, CLR and the API surface. These things reside at the very top of the OS' software stack.

    W10 is also about UI/UX changes, but it's even more about the software layers between A and B. For example, on the desktop, some parts of the WinRT library would call and delegate to Win32, but that doesn't exist on the phone. In these intermediate layers, W8.1 and WP8.1 are nothing alike!

    W10 represents, for the first time, a unified OS where those components that are shared across form factors actually are identical. With W8.1/WP8.1 MS made it look to developers as if most of the modern OS stack is identical, but with W10 it actually will be. To achieve this WinRT no longer relies on Win32 but rather on something called Windows Core.

    IMHO these are the most significant changes to Windows since Vista, in some ways since even before that. As is often the case for OS level changes though, the impact won't be felt by end users directly.
    rhapdog, xandros9 and netmann like this.
    07-23-2015 05:08 PM
  10. rhapdog's Avatar
    ^^This! I love that kind of detailed, in-depth analysis. Yeah, I'm a nerd.

    Thanks for that.
    a5cent likes this.
    07-23-2015 05:14 PM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ Another thing we have in common besides chocolate ;-)
    07-23-2015 05:19 PM
  12. rhapdog's Avatar
    ^ Another thing we have in common besides chocolate ;-)
    Mmmmm.... chocolate!
    xandros9 and a5cent like this.
    07-23-2015 06:30 PM
  13. im.thatoneguy's Avatar
    This post is stupid. Microsoft should release Windows 11 mobile in 5 days. That would prove that they're a mobile-first company. /s

    To elaborate on A5cent's post. Another way to think about it is this, an operating system is not a kernel. Nor is the runtime environment. Android runs on the Linux Kernel, but we can all agree that Android and 'Linux' (GNU Linux) are two very very different operating systems. Similarly you can run WinRT 'like' .NET applications on Linux using the Mono runtime environment. WinRT (Win32's replacement in Windows 8+) is mostly just .NET so you can reuse most of a WinRT app on a Win32 .NET app or in a Linux Mono app. That's because the compiler which takes your code and turns it into machine code abstracts a lot of the operating system level specifics.

    Windows 10 for mobile isn't a rewrite but it's also not just a UI refresh. Windows 10 Mobile is where Windows RT was when 8 launched. In fact Windows Mobile 10 is probably Windows RT 10 with a dialer if I had to guess. That's where a5cent and I disagree though on one point. I suspect that Windows 10 Mobile can run Win32 like WindowsRT could. However like Windows RT (since I think W10M is Windows RT) where Microsoft compiled Microsoft Office but refused to share the ARM Win32 compiler I think they cleared out a lot of win32 internal crud but actually still have win32 for now. I can't see how they couldn't. Somewhere deep in Win10Mobile is the device manager. Not the UI, but the OS level driver manager that's on the desktop. Somewhere deep in W10M I also suspect diskpart and other win32 utilities are cranking away.
    07-24-2015 12:45 PM
  14. a5cent's Avatar

    In fact Windows Mobile 10 is probably Windows RT 10 with a dialer if I had to guess.
    I'm NOT guessing when I say this is entirely incorrect. Windows RT was in no way a basis for W10M.

    The basis for W10M was both WP8.1 and parts of W10 (those parts that are shared).


    That's where a5cent and I disagree though on one point. I suspect that Windows 10 Mobile can run Win32 like WindowsRT could..
    In that case you wouldn't be disagreeing just with me, but with everyone at MS.

    W10M doesn't even include the Win32 binaries. That's part of the reason Windows RT and W10 both clock in at over 9GB install size, whereas W10M is a mere 0.5GB.

    I'd be interested to know where you're getting this information. You really should stop reading those sources
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-25-2015 at 06:02 PM. Reason: formatting only
    07-24-2015 03:40 PM
  15. Jas00555's Avatar
    ^
    And to add to this, IIRC, the only way to run a small subset (I think it was only ones written in .NET, since Microsoft ported that framework to ARM) of Win32 apps on Windows RT was to jailbreak it by breaking the sandbox, then running an x86 emulator. That hardly seems like a point when trying to explain how W10M can run Win32 apps.
    07-24-2015 04:14 PM
  16. rhapdog's Avatar
    W10M doesn't even include the Win32 binaries. That's part of the reason Windows RT and W10 both clock in at over 9GB install size, whereas W10M is a mere 0.5GB.
    Well, that's a problem for me. The whole idea of getting an Intel processor in the phone for me was to be able to do Win32 binaries in desktop mode. Thanks for that info. I suppose, then, it won't really matter whether I go Intel or Qualcomm on that point.

    However, someone was able to put Windows 7 64 bit on an Intel phone recently (not a Windows Intel phone, they did it on one of those Androids). Not that it ran great, but if we could install the full Windows 10... yeah, probably wouldn't get the dialer or ability to use it as a phone anymore if we did that, I'll bet.

    I hope Microsoft will offer a solution to handle this so that win32 can be run on Windows Intel Flagship phones when using Continuum in the near future.
    a5cent likes this.
    07-25-2015 09:49 AM
  17. anon(5383410)'s Avatar
    Windows Insiders(people who you'd consider enthusiasts) are whining day in and day out. One could only imagine the kind of outcry from the general public if they released w10m as is on the 29th.
    07-25-2015 10:03 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    Well, that's a problem for me. The whole idea of getting an Intel processor in the phone for me was to be able to do Win32 binaries in desktop mode. Thanks for that info. I suppose, then, it won't really matter whether I go Intel or Qualcomm on that point.

    However, someone was able to put Windows 7 64 bit on an Intel phone recently (not a Windows Intel phone, they did it on one of those Androids). Not that it ran great, but if we could install the full Windows 10... yeah, probably wouldn't get the dialer or ability to use it as a phone anymore if we did that, I'll bet.

    I hope Microsoft will offer a solution to handle this so that win32 can be run on Windows Intel Flagship phones when using Continuum in the near future.
    Yeah, you are right. Assuming that running Win32 based software is the primary reason for an x86 based phone to exist (I can't really think of any other reason off the top of my head), I see no alternative to it running W10 rather than W10M. That's exactly what you'd want it to run though, because it's expected to act like a fully featured (and 100% compatible) Windows PC when it's docked. W10M won't do that.

    If such an x86 based device does end up running W10M, then we're likely missing a puzzle piece that would tell us what the purpose of that would be. At least under the current conditions that would seem to make no sense at all.
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-25-2015 at 12:42 PM. Reason: spelling
    rhapdog likes this.
    07-25-2015 12:31 PM
  19. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Yeah, MS really didn't say that. That really would have countered MS' marketing message, but I'm thinking the primary reason for not saying it is because it's BS. Here's a more accurate description:

    MS has been on a path to OS unification ever since Vista. Up until W8.1 MS had achieved unification in two areas:

    A) Kernel

    Unification between phones, desktops and XB1 was achieved with W8/WP8.

    The kernel is a chunk of code around 20MB in size on disk. It is a very important, but also a very small part of the OS. It resides at the very bottom of the OS' software stack and can basically be thought of as a driver for the CPU.

    B) WinRT / WinPRT

    ~90% unification between phones and desktop achieved with W8.1/WP8.1.

    Note that unification refers to parts of the WinRT library, CLR and the API surface. These things reside at the very top of the OS' software stack.

    W10 is also about UI/UX changes, but it's even more about the software layers between A and B. For example, on the desktop, some parts of the WinRT library would call and delegate to Win32, but that doesn't exist on the phone. In these intermediate layers, W8.1 and WP8.1 are nothing alike!

    W10 represents, for the first time, a unified OS where those components that are shared across form factors actually are identical. With W8.1/WP8.1 MS made it look to developers as if most of the modern OS stack is identical, but with W10 it actually will be. To achieve this WinRT no longer relies on Win32 but rather on something called Windows Core.

    IMHO these are the most significant changes to Windows since Vista, in some ways since even before that. As is often the case for OS level changes though, the impact won't be felt by end users directly.
    WP 8.1 actually implements many of the Win32 APIs because several WinRT components are just wrappers that call the same old desktop Win32 and COM APIs.

    Windows Core is actually a team inside Microsoft that write common components.

    So, no, this is not a major rewrite of the OS, and the unification was mostly done in 8.1.
    Yazen likes this.
    07-27-2015 08:56 PM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    Windows Core is actually a team inside Microsoft that write common components.
    Although it's not well known outside of MS, the term "Windows Core" has long been used to refer to both:

    A) the team and
    B) the shared subset of Windows components.

    http://blog.jerrynixon.com/2015/03/w...ndows.html?m=1

    The other points you dispute aren't well understood outside of MS either, for the same reasons, but as usual I'll take the word of MS' engineers over yours. Believe what you will...
    Last edited by a5cent; 07-28-2015 at 04:06 AM. Reason: formatting only
    07-28-2015 03:41 AM
  21. Yazen's Avatar
    So, no, this is not a major rewrite of the OS, and the unification was mostly done in 8.1.
    ^ This
    07-29-2015 04:58 AM
  22. Cramarc's Avatar
    It is taking them too long. Theyre starting to lose their momentum.
    07-29-2015 05:14 AM
  23. Stephon Randolph's Avatar
    When is wm10 coming out
    07-29-2015 05:25 AM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    When is wm10 coming out
    1. Release to OEMs in late September or early October (confirmed by MS).
    2. Release to insiders likely in October (guessing).
    3. First devices available in retail in November (confirmed by MS).
    4. Official update of phones at carrier's discretion. For some it will be available in 2015, some may no get it until far into 2016 (guessing).
    07-29-2015 06:21 AM
  25. seb_r's Avatar
    It is taking them too long. Theyre starting to lose their momentum.
    So true. They have a lot to catch up but everything is painfully painfully painfully slow. Even here the biggest fanboys are getting offended by how MS is treating the mobile OS. And I am sure by the time the flagship devices they have in the pipeline will be outdated when they become available in stores after Win10 mobile release. And also not many people willing to get devices with uncertain future / lifecycle. And you all know how fast MS can change their mind and drop support for any piece of hardware: WP 7.X, Windows RT aka WoA, MS Fingerprint reader ....
    For sure right now the give full attention to the desktop version and fix things there since it is released officially already and MS still play an important role for desktop OS un like in the mobile market. Not what we might wish but that is just logical. As mentioned in the other thread I not expect Win10 to land on our phones before mid 2016.
    07-29-2015 06:26 AM
50 12

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