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09-11-2015 12:00 PM
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  1. mprebich's Avatar
    If the insider preview were actually a beta test I'd agree with you. It isn't. Software that undergoes a public beta test is practically always considered feature complete and fully tested by the developer. With the developer having already put a lot of effort into QA, bug reports are obviously quite valuable since those bugs are often found in constellations the developer didn't think to look. That's not the situation we currently have with W10M.

    W10M is littered with bugs, non-functional parts, and not a single app is feature complete. MS will no doubt have long lists with thousands of issues they have yet to fix. In this state, most bug reports are just noise.



    So you signed up on this site to tell me that being slow (whatever that means exactly, 4 seconds, 9 seconds, an hour?), exhibiting overly long loading times and overly long resuming times (both of which are very different operations), are all very likely the result of parts of W10M crashing, which MS may have done intentionally for testing purposes, which MS then left in the build before distributing it to insiders?

    Yeah... you think I could get some of whatever you're smoking?

    I'm not sure what to do with the rest of your post. I'll leave it at that.
    Well, it seems the "entire media industry" would seem to disagree with you, including Windows Central.

    Microsoft execs say Windows 10 Mobile 'is significantly feature complete', hints at Surface Phone | Windows Central
    "Microsoft execs say Windows 10 Mobile 'is significantly feature complete', hints at Surface Phone
    By John Callaham, Wednesday, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:58 am EDT "

    Here's what's new, improved and fixed in Windows 10 Mobile preview build 10512 | Windows Central
    "Here's what's new, improved and fixed in Windows 10 Mobile preview build 10512
    By John Callaham, Wednesday, Aug 12, 2015 at 1:17 pm EDT"

    Windows 10 Mobile Build 10512 now available to Insiders - WMPoweruser
    "The latest Windows 10 Mobile build comes with a couple of new improvements and a few features. As expected, this build doesnt include a lot of features as we previously reported, Windows 10 Mobile is now feature complete, and the company is working to fix bugs and improve performance. "

    "Yeah... you think I could get some of whatever you're smoking?"

    Do you have to continue insulting people in attempt to get your point across, or to try to discredit posters who seem to prove you wrong, or at least misguided?
    09-07-2015 06:49 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ In the exact same article you linked to, Belfiore is quoted as saying:

    "We'll put features in right up near the end. But in general, the broad feature set is set."
    In other words, the current build is not feature complete, which is exactly what I said. :-/

    More important however, is the fact that beta tests are usually run with software that is much closer to release candidate quality. We all know build 10152 isn't release candidate material. Even if you don't believe me, the errors, missing functionalities and other issues Gabe Aul has so far always mentioned alongside each preview build announcement should be proof enough of that.

    All of this just serves as context for the more important point, which is that MS won't be paying a lot of attention to the ten-thousandth report of a bug they've already known about for the last three months. A flood of bug reports, most of which state the obvious, is the natural consequence of people reporting bugs for a product that is full of obvious flaws. Rummaging through 100'000 unsystematically written bug reports, to find the few dozen that are interesting, isn't economically worthwhile.

    Maybe the next preview build will exhibit release candidate quality. Then that will change. I hope so.

    Anyway, it's not that complicated, so I'll stop here. Anyone who still hasn't understood never will.

    Do you have to continue insulting people in attempt to get your point across, or to try to discredit posters who seem to prove you wrong, or at least misguided?
    Some opinions deserve to be insulted.

    I still feel you're arguing just for the sake of saving face or for argument's sake itself. You're so focused on nit picking the details in the hope of finding some point you could potentially criticize, that you can't acknowledge the broader points being raised. I've lost interest at this point, so I'll leave the last word to you. Have at it.
    09-07-2015 07:55 PM
  3. Rising Mos's Avatar
    We had quite few insider builds in desktop side with:-
    - problems with start screen not showing up or crashing.
    - apps not running or constantly crashing.
    09-08-2015 01:33 AM
  4. sheldon cohn's Avatar
    I manage a lot of Insiders are sending feed back on problems found, but the fixes are not coming
    fast enough for a lot of people. I connect my W10 phone to the computer at night for charging,
    with the start screen showing. When I take it off the USB to use the phone, I unlock it, but it
    takes a VERY long time for it to show the start screen. The windows 10 phone is my test phone,
    I have a BLU HD LTE phone with the SIM card. I have moved the SIM to the W10 phone, but
    the response time is to slow for me to use it.. A person generally picks up the phone for using
    it, and it's a disappointment having to wait until the phone is usable.
    Last edited by sheldon cohn; 09-08-2015 at 08:26 AM. Reason: ICON showed up in the wrong place.
    09-08-2015 08:25 AM
  5. MACRM32's Avatar
    If I had to venture a guess, I'd say they're still adding features (10512 doesn't allow for custom ringtones, for example).

    However, I wouldn't be surprised if they were in fact sitting on an update. Coming from a developer, the last thing you want is for customers to know how long you REALLY take to fix/add/develop something.

    That said, it's been nearly a full month, so I'm guessing a new build is coming shortly. All I ask of them is better battery performance.
    09-08-2015 08:41 AM
  6. Paolo Ferrazza's Avatar
    If I had to venture a guess, I'd say they're still adding features (10512 doesn't allow for custom ringtones, for example).

    However, I wouldn't be surprised if they were in fact sitting on an update. Coming from a developer, the last thing you want is for customers to know how long you REALLY take to fix/add/develop something.

    That said, it's been nearly a full month, so I'm guessing a new build is coming shortly. All I ask of them is better battery performance.
    What do you mean? I can change my phone ringer and I can change each app notification sound (a global settings for notifications would be good though...)
    09-08-2015 09:03 AM
  7. tut1234's Avatar
    What do you mean? I can change my phone ringer and I can change each app notification sound (a global settings for notifications would be good though...)
    I think he means custom as in, add your own. The upgrade removes the genre from the ringtone file so the phone does not see it. Change the genre back to ringtone and that will fix it. Here's hope for a new build today.
    09-08-2015 09:29 AM
  8. vicky geth's Avatar
    But he promised a build in this week. Let's hope things go good..
    09-08-2015 09:35 AM
  9. safariking's Avatar
    Haha :p
    09-08-2015 09:41 AM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    But he promised a build in this week. Let's hope things go good..
    Apparently, people working at MS can't even "bottom burp" without someone misinterpreting that as a promise for something.

    Trying very hard != promise
    safariking likes this.
    09-08-2015 09:50 AM
  11. Paolo Ferrazza's Avatar
    I think he means custom as in, add your own. The upgrade removes the genre from the ringtone file so the phone does not see it. Change the genre back to ringtone and that will fix it. Here's hope for a new build today.
    I don't know I'm using Zedge and I can change it from inside the app, try it it's a great app!
    09-08-2015 01:30 PM
  12. Sedp23's Avatar
    Source, or it didn't happen.

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Micro...n-478912.shtml

    They still been releasing builds at the same one build a month. That's not more often at all. PC version of 10 has been released and it's still getting far more builds than mobile
    a5cent likes this.
    09-08-2015 02:22 PM
  13. tangledW's Avatar
    They still been releasing builds at the same one build a month. That's not more often at all. PC version of 10 has been released and it's still getting far more builds than mobile
    I want a new release now too, but you're basing your one a month release on one update.
    09-08-2015 02:27 PM
  14. hf199's Avatar
    Build 10512 took one month! And this week we are at exactly at one month for whatever build they release; tested so far 10530, 10532 and now 10537. I truly believe that WM10 will be delayed until November when the new phones get released (950/950XL). Gabriel Aul did say that when WM10 for PC was released that they would expedite builds faster and that hasn't been the case.
    Dk92 and Sedp23 like this.
    09-08-2015 02:27 PM
  15. Sedp23's Avatar
    I want a new release now too, but you're basing your one a month release on one update.

    I'm basing it off what they promised us in the email. They said after the Windows 10 for PC was Released there would be more frequent updates. Nothing has changed. It's been over a month since Windows 10 for the PC has been released now. What changed? There's been more pc builds in that time than mobile. So I can't expect them to live up to their promises?
    Dk92 likes this.
    09-08-2015 02:39 PM
  16. dreamglimmer's Avatar
    If the insider preview were actually a beta test I'd agree with you.
    you forgot one simple thing - it's not 2005 around. and we are not talking about 'ship once, use till the end' standalone software.
    it's age of online services, SaaS, constantly updated local or centralized software. and if you look at any big release of those - they often look like beta at most X.0 versions, taking days or even month to get to X.1 - X.3 version that is quite stable and feel final. just to get to (X+1).0 in half of the year.
    the 'best' of it you can see at any MMO game, either with first release or large add-ons. you never see when actually beta ends - it's never planned - you just get your invite, than almost everyone you know has one. than it's still beta, but no invite is needed. and ages later, you just notice that there is no BETA label there anymore, and they did publish something in the news about it, but you don't really care - as you would play as you did, store is same as it was before, eating your money, and most of things just works.

    same stuff happens with windows. they are just different from usual OS beta versions - opening gates soo early, that it gets stable 2 month before the release, instead of 2 month after (apple way/2nd SP rule/can't wait new android with fixed battery life/etc), and making it so easy for so many people to join the beta.
    they did more than beta, letting us vote, 'decide', and try on us different stuff and approaches, but it doesn't mean it didn't have all that beta is.
    it's new age, new marketing and engineering, new way of making beta - so that they pulled out new name for it as well.
    09-08-2015 03:24 PM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    you forgot one simple thing - it's not 2005 around. and we are not talking about 'ship once, use till the end' standalone software.
    Tell that to Apple, Google and the thousands of other companies developing consumer software that don't provide a program similar to the insider preview. Are you seriously claiming they are all stuck in 2005?

    If you're developing custom software or work in the enterprise space, where you can train, educate, and involve your clients directly in the development process, then I completely agree with you. You can't do that with consumers. As you can see in these forums, a lot of people have difficulty dealing with the raw results.

    I think you're taking textbook passages from an agile programming course and wanting to rigorously apply those methodologies to any situation you encounter. People just aren't machines. You have to adjust depending on who your customers are. It has nothing to do with 2005 vs 2015. People haven't changed that much in that time.
    HeyCori and Laura Knotek like this.
    09-08-2015 04:31 PM
  18. jfa1's Avatar
    Im a but worried bcz the official release is near and the speed of delivering builds is still the same. The same wasn't with the pc when it was close to the release date.. I want W10M to smack android and iOS and dont want them to fail again..
    Dude do you want speedier released builds that are unusable or do you want builds a bit slower that are more stable and closer to being good enough to put on your daily driver? Personally I want the later.
    09-08-2015 04:35 PM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    Microsoft Promises to Release Windows 10 for Phones Builds More Often - Softpedia

    They still been releasing builds at the same one build a month. That's not more often at all. PC version of 10 has been released and it's still getting far more builds than mobile
    I consider any claim about MS having said something, that doesn't quote MS directly, to be generally worthless, but your link can be traced back to the original source. This is the passage from the original e-mail that started this all off:

    Based on your feedback, we’re going to send out builds more frequently to Windows Insiders that have selected “Fast” preview builds. That means you can getting fresher code with all of the features and fixes, more often – but builds may include more bugs.” Read my blog for more details. To switch to slow of fast builds on your PC, go to Settings>Update & recovery>Advanced options. On your phone go to the Windows Insider app.
    When Gabe Aul wrote that e-mail, we only ever had a single W10M preview build, so it seems to me that Gabe Aul was probably referring only to PC builds, though that's very unclear. WMPU appears to have understood this statement to apply to both W10 and W10M preview builds, which to me already implies a misunderstanding all by itself. Pretty much no statement concerning development or release planning applies to both W10 and W10M equally. I just can't prove this. Unfortunately, WMPU's likely incorrect interpretation of that paragraph is what spread all over the internet, leading to the expectations many now have. Only Gabe Aul knows what he really meant.

    Anyway, I'm starting to agree with some of you who are voicing your dissatisfaction and/or impatience. While I completely disagree that expecting a preview build, at any time, or in regular intervals, is in any way reasonable or realistic, MS does appear to have occasionally communicated in ways that would somewhat fan the flame of expectations.

    Using their current development methodology MS can't live up to such expectations, but since they contributed to people having such expectations, they themselves are at least partially to blame for these nerd rages.

    So what now?
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-08-2015 at 06:40 PM. Reason: Slight clarifications in second paragraph
    xandros9 likes this.
    09-08-2015 05:05 PM
  20. Sedp23's Avatar
    Dude do you want speedier released builds that are unusable or do you want builds a bit slower that are more stable and closer to being good enough to put on your daily driver? Personally I want the later.

    That's what the fast and slow rings are for. Faster builds with bugs ...slower builds with the bugs worked out but we just got two slow builds instead
    09-08-2015 05:53 PM
  21. newnews's Avatar
    I used to say "wait a bit longer for stable build". However, the fact is even we wait for longer time, the bugs are still not fixed, so I would rather they push out fast.
    09-08-2015 06:24 PM
  22. newnews's Avatar
    Wrong.

    They said they will pay more attention on mobile, however they never did. They pushed 3 desktop versions out in a week, very fast, where is the mobile version? Once a month but still with thousands of bugs

    a) Not even 1 month
    b) No one knows
    c) Not even behind shedule
    d) Not fair to say slow as hell
    09-08-2015 06:31 PM
  23. runamuck83's Avatar
    I love all these armchair quarter backs who sit there and criticize constantly. Yet, most of those same armchair quarter backs have never worked on anything near as massive in magnitude as creating a mobile operating system.

    Sit down, and wait and you'll get it when they're ready...
    a5cent and xandros9 like this.
    09-08-2015 06:56 PM
  24. mprebich's Avatar
    If I had to venture a guess, I'd say they're still adding features (10512 doesn't allow for custom ringtones, for example).

    However, I wouldn't be surprised if they were in fact sitting on an update. Coming from a developer, the last thing you want is for customers to know how long you REALLY take to fix/add/develop something.

    That said, it's been nearly a full month, so I'm guessing a new build is coming shortly. All I ask of them is better battery performance.
    Custom ringtones does work in 10512.

    There is another thread dedicated to this.
    09-08-2015 07:16 PM
  25. mprebich's Avatar
    ^ In the exact same article you linked to, Belfiore is quoted as saying:



    In other words, the current build is not feature complete, which is exactly what I said. :-/

    More important however, is the fact that beta tests are usually run with software that is much closer to release candidate quality. We all know build 10152 isn't release candidate material. Even if you don't believe me, the errors, missing functionalities and other issues Gabe Aul has so far always mentioned alongside each preview build announcement should be proof enough of that.

    All of this just serves as context for the more important point, which is that MS won't be paying a lot of attention to the ten-thousandth report of a bug they've already known about for the last three months. A flood of bug reports, most of which state the obvious, is the natural consequence of people reporting bugs for a product that is full of obvious flaws. Rummaging through 100'000 unsystematically written bug reports, to find the few dozen that are interesting, isn't economically worthwhile.

    Maybe the next preview build will exhibit release candidate quality. Then that will change. I hope so.

    Anyway, it's not that complicated, so I'll stop here. Anyone who still hasn't understood never will.


    Some opinions deserve to be insulted.

    I still feel you're arguing just for the sake of saving face or for argument's sake itself. You're so focused on nit picking the details in the hope of finding some point you could potentially criticize, that you can't acknowledge the broader points being raised. I've lost interest at this point, so I'll leave the last word to you. Have at it.


    The point of this thread is whether builds are being released too slow. Since build 10512, I have said yes I believe the next build needed to come asap, due to the severity/critically of bugs in it. My experience is in business-critical financial and accounting systems, where some bugs even in a test release cannot be tolerated and should be fixed asap and a new build released. I argue that bld 10512 is such a case, even if only for the reason that the major bugs of the Lock and Start screens have caused many users considerable lost time and prevented them from fully testing W10M (if it is so bad that many rollback to W8.1, the testing obviously is stopped and lost benefit from the release).

    To understand that, one does not have to quote ghost people in the "entire software industry". There is no definition that will explain the above scenario. I would fix the bug and issue a new release in a heartbeat to ensure the trust of my users in the system, and to not risk reputational damage from such a bad build.

    As of today, still no build. I'd worry now about the underlying issues causing the bugs, and whether this jeopardizes the "expected" October RTM. While every feature planned for W10M long-term may not be in there now, most seem to agree that no new significant features will be added to the release expected for RTM, and only stabilization and bug fixes will be addressed. I had hoped for a better quality build sooner than today, by the end of the week, or later.


    The rest of your post above, I won't comment on. I guess you learned that in Moderator School, which I never attended ("Some opinions deserve to be insulted", "I still feel you're arguing just for the sake of saving face or for argument's sake itself" and other derogatory comments in your posts prior to this).
    09-08-2015 07:50 PM
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