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  1. ShaneRay's Avatar
    Yes. It needs to stop. Now.

    Right off the bat I will grant to you that, yes, some do expect too much from a technical preview and shouldnt participate. This is always going to be an issue. In these cases, there are two best practices:

    1) Ignore. Theres enough clear information out there. Let them discover it on their own.

    If you must engage (ask yourself if you really need to):

    2) Gently point out that its a technical preview, alpha, beta, etc. Move on.

    Acceptable.

    What is not acceptable is responding to every criticism of the current build, or the Insiders program as a whole, with Its a beta, dumbass. Its arrogant and patronizing. No purpose is served. And you know what? Its makes the person with this attitude exactly the type of person they assumed they were berating: ignorant.

    Many of the criticisms, and opinions, that are victims of this attitude are, in fact, valid.

    Let me say that again:

    Many of the criticisms, and opinions, that are victims of this attitude are, in fact, valid.

    "Its a beta, dumbass. is not an intelligent rebuke. Its a crutch used by the closed-minded.
    10-16-2015 04:32 PM
  2. chris_gt's Avatar
    Yep, too much of that going on lately. That one and the "it will never be finished, it's windows as a service" one.
    10-16-2015 04:40 PM
  3. Mad Cabbie's Avatar
    Agree. Way to much negativity towards these beta / preview builds.

    IMHO, a lot of the negative points come from those who just 'want' to be associated with the latest 'thing' ergo, act like magpies with something shiny. A proper understanding of the whole process is a must. MSFT's disclaimer is rarely read, boards are rarely searched and when it goes wrong, it's someone else's fault.

    Condescending comments are not the way in which to deal with things. This smacks of my days as a note 3 dev on XDA. If people asked or searched the boards then they would always get my assistance to resolve their issue. Those who just waded in calling those same people, idiots, dumbass or much worse, spoilt the whole experience. I stopped developing for the N3, left XDA and thought I'd come to, what I thought, was a more mature, insightful OS. I am beginning to doubt my sanity!!
    10-16-2015 05:25 PM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    If somebody is actually responding in this way, please report the post. Calling someone a dumbass is worthy of an infraction.

    On the other hand, pointing out that these insider previews are alpha (now closing in on beta) builds, which aren't intended to be used as a daily driver, is perfectly legit. Anyone who gets agitated over having to hard reset, over app crashes, performance issues, etc has only themselves to blame and likely should never have started using the previews to begin with.

    There will inevitably be bugs and other issues in these previews, right up to the very end. That's simply the nature of software development.
    10-16-2015 06:24 PM
  5. ShaneRay's Avatar
    Just so I'm clear...

    "dumbass" wasn't meant to be taken literally. Rather it was meant to represent an attitude.

    Yes, it's perfectly fine to let someone know it's pre-release software. "Can/should I install this on my daily driver?"

    However, my issue is when someone makes a legitimate point, or opinion, concerning the current state of something--that something could be the build, an app, or even how the Insider's Program is run-- and that attitude (and response) follows.

    The fact that something is pre-release does not make it immune to legitimate criticism. Those who fire back with "it's alpha, beta, pre-release" etc. either fail to see that or are of the "fanboy" mindset.

    Example: Performance still isn't on par with 8.1 in my testing. I make note of that in a follow-up to my experience. Someone then says, "It's a preview, what did you expect?"... what I expect is my observation be taken as an observation rather than lacking "the right stuff" to participate in the preview,

    Sorry, a5scent, I don't think you got where I was coming from, so I'm replying quickly. I'll leave it at that.

    Thanks.
    10-16-2015 09:13 PM
  6. snakebitten's Avatar
    I am sympathetic to the overall point of this thread, in that the "insult" portion of the response is unnecessary.
    But I gotta say it is far outweighed by the "insult" add-ons to the complaints and critical remarks made about Microsoft's developers. Those guys take a beating in here.

    It's quite obvious they have thick skin though since they just keep on serving us day in and day out.
    Nicholas Ek and Chintan Gohel like this.
    10-16-2015 10:50 PM
  7. Indistinguishable's Avatar
    There will always be people that come across as insensitive and high brow. I hope the Windows community will rise above it.

    I will say, often when I see the "What did you expect, it's a preview" response, it's not in response to the content, as much as the attitude of frustration. Yes, there's going to be bugs. And we should be encouraging one another to point out and report said bugs. Particularly through the official Windows Insider Feedback channel. That is, after all, the main purpose of the insider program. But frustration and indignance about bugs and glitches in a technical preview are obviously misplaced. And I think that's where the "What did you expect?" responses often come from.
    10-16-2015 10:58 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    However, my issue is when someone makes a legitimate point, or opinion, concerning the current state of something--that something could be the build, an app, or even how the Insider's Program is run-- and that attitude (and response) follows.

    The fact that something is pre-release does not make it immune to legitimate criticism. Those who fire back with "it's alpha, beta, pre-release" etc. either fail to see that or are of the "fanboy" mindset.

    Example: Performance still isn't on par with 8.1 in my testing. I make note of that in a follow-up to my experience. Someone then says, "It's a preview, what did you expect?"... what I expect is my observation be taken as an observation rather than lacking "the right stuff" to participate in the preview,

    Sorry, a5scent, I don't think you got where I was coming from, so I'm replying quickly. I'll leave it at that.

    Thanks.
    I mostly agree with you. I just wanted you to make it absolutely clear that you were speaking figuratively.

    The thing is, while 'observations' can also be 'criticisms' and visa versa, 95% of the time, criticisms are just complaints and expressions of people's disappointment, over how poorly the previews work for them (personally) as a daily driver. The loudest complaints are usually made by those who understand the least about how software projects progress. That is NOT legitimate criticism and I can understand the "snark" in those situations. Pointing out that these preview builds are still barely worthy of being called beta-software is then appropriate.

    Unfortunately, some people inappropriately bring that attitude into those (uncommon) threads where the points being made are more academic in nature.

    If you have just put together a thread that criticizes W10M and you've managed to do so with a certain level of academic professionalism (lay it out as a study rather than a list of personal grievances), then I'll be glad to intervene or even delete posts when members get too snarky. Just report them or PM me a link.

    What you can't do is engage in counter-snark by calling those members fan boys etc. If you do that, then we're well on our way to where neither side takes the other side seriously and where both sides lose their credibility.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-17-2015 at 08:58 AM. Reason: formatting only
    10-17-2015 05:25 AM
  9. Jazmac's Avatar
    So much for accountability.

    alrighty-then.jpg
    10-18-2015 03:39 PM
  10. Allen Rhodes's Avatar
    Microsoft stops public alpha and beta and this issue goes away. What many of you fail to realize is the constant complaints, from those who need to feel special, is actually BAD for business. The "it's slow" "it burns my battery" "the old one is faster" doesn't scream BUY ME to someone borderline on the platform. There shouldn't be insults, but saying the ones who actually should be testing the OS cant call out the simple minded who are just trying to be first or trendy is ridiculous. It's not helping the devs cause, it hurts it. I guarantee 98% don't report bugs to MS, they just whine here.
    Jazmac and xandros9 like this.
    10-18-2015 10:33 PM
  11. Jazmac's Avatar
    Microsoft stops public alpha and beta and this issue goes away. What many of you fail to realize is the constant complaints, from those who need to feel special, is actually BAD for business. The "it's slow" "it burns my battery" "the old one is faster" doesn't scream BUY ME to someone borderline on the platform. There shouldn't be insults, but saying the ones who actually should be testing the OS cant call out the simple minded who are just trying to be first or trendy is ridiculous. It's not helping the devs cause, it hurts it. I guarantee 98% don't report bugs to MS, they just whine here.
    Its a long way around to get to the best OS MS can build, no question about it. Charging 99 bucks to get these builds would lower the temperature at Windows Central. That's for sure.
    10-18-2015 11:57 PM
  12. Ivan05il's Avatar
    Yep, too much of that going on lately. That one and the "it will never be finished, it's windows as a service" one.
    This one is really cute :D Never finished is not an equivalent of never working properly.
    xandros9 likes this.
    10-19-2015 01:33 AM
  13. Paolo Ferrazza's Avatar
    If you find people sharing a problem with the right attitude it is ok, what needs to stop is stupid people coming here to complain, whine etcetc. We do not need those spammers here, they are just useless children complaining about something that is not finished, they want their toy fixed. They'd deserve a good spanking, but since we cannot educate them at least we can say “It’s a beta, dumbass”, it is the least they deserve ;)
    10-19-2015 04:23 AM
  14. dda_k's Avatar
    Half-off-topic: This is the most reasonable topic I've ever read in WC forums. I agree with all of the stuff you guys wrote here. Definitely following this thread here.
    xandros9 likes this.
    10-19-2015 04:40 AM
  15. missionsparta's Avatar
    If you find people sharing a problem with the right attitude it is ok, what needs to stop is stupid people coming here to complain, whine etcetc. We do not need those spammers here, they are just useless children complaining about something that is not finished, they want their toy fixed. They'd deserve a good spanking, but since we cannot educate them at least we can say Its a beta, dumbass, it is the least they deserve ;)
    Congratulations...you just covered everything the OP started this thread about.
    Kram Sacul likes this.
    10-19-2015 04:41 AM
  16. Paolo Ferrazza's Avatar
    Congratulations...you just covered everything the OP started this thread about.
    Well it is pretty simple, posting issues with the right attitude is appreciated and it is what this forum is about. Whining people are not appreciated at all and does not need to be treated "Gently", they are spamming, and as spammers should be treated (I never insult anyone, just to be clear). I could point you to a dozen posts I read in the last 30mins that are just plain "w10m suxxxxx it will fail!", they are in every thread, they are ruining this forum and comunity.

    I do not like the Ned Flanders attitude this thread is encouraging :)
    Last edited by Paolo Ferrazza; 10-19-2015 at 10:46 AM. Reason: typo
    10-19-2015 05:13 AM
  17. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    Why is it so slow?

    "It's a beta"

    Why is it missing so many features?

    "It's not finished"

    Why isn't it finished yet?

    "It's coming soon"

    I'm not happy with it.

    "Wait until Windows 11 Mobile"
    10-19-2015 06:07 AM
  18. someone2639's Avatar
    Sure, Windows 10 might be a beta, but so are some of our responses!
    10-19-2015 06:27 AM
  19. xandros9's Avatar
    This response is in the outer rings of my brain, pending final approval to go public.
    someone2639 likes this.
    10-19-2015 10:58 AM
  20. Erik Latranyi's Avatar
    All sides need to take the emotion out of their posts.

    Frustration is an emotion.
    Condescension is an emotion.

    The SOLUTION is to post the problem in a clear, sober, stick-to-the-facts manner.....and be sure to state the make/model of phone. Wait for replies quoting your post to have a correction or suggestion.

    If emotion is what we see here, imagine what the Insiders Feedback must look like to the development team! They are doing their job. We should not make it more difficult my clouding the data with emotion.
    10-19-2015 12:03 PM

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