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06-30-2017 11:12 PM
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  1. Drael646464's Avatar
    Not that I actually care about cshell btw. I don't want or need it. Only two features that have been mentioned interest me. Timeline and Cortana skills. Both of those derive from Cortana which is more of an app/cloud based thing, than part of the OS per se (its quasi part of the OS, but it runs across platforms and is updated across platforms without platform changes, so its only minimally connected to the OS)
    06-28-2017 08:59 AM
  2. kaktus1389's Avatar
    Do you have an official source, that says they are working on specific features for the elite x3 only?
    Okay I haven't worded that properly. I've seen a tweet by Dona Sarkar in which she said they were developing some enterprise features HP asked for. What my point was that if they were to release CShell for everyone then they would simply add those features to the CShell builds.
    06-28-2017 09:04 AM
  3. Drael646464's Avatar
    Okay I haven't worded that properly. I've seen a tweet by Dona Sarkar in which she said they were developing some enterprise features HP asked for. What my point was that if they were to release CShell for everyone then they would simply add those features to the CShell builds.
    Well now we really are getting lost in some kind of communication rabbithole XD

    Are we talking about this tweet:


    @brandonleblanc
    @AlvaroM30 The team is working on delivering some features for enterprise customers later this summer.

    Which for same strange reason some blog writing people, in typically garbled fashion have assumed is only coming to the x3, despite many enterprise customers globally, not using the x3? Such as in one of onmsfts typically rambling speculations here: https://www.onmsft.com/news/windows-...for-enterprise

    I think it more likely that as this article ponders:

    https://www.neowin.net/news/microsof...ng-this-summer

    "it could mean improvements that are strictly for the Windows 10 Mobile Enterprise SKU of the OS, or he might be talking about Windows 10 Mobile features that are available to everyone, but aimed at the enterprise."

    Unless you have further info, I don't think there's any specific HP only element. Certainly nothing in that tweet suggests it. If anything the context implies that its for everyone.

    Interesting the same article points out he also says " I am not familiar with the roll-out plans beyond the Insider rings. I can ask some folks though.", which shows the insider team is not really privy to the big picture. And we shouldn't take their word as final on any big picture plans.
    06-28-2017 09:23 AM
  4. Drael646464's Avatar
    Actually I will say this - neowin is often in my experience, more factually based, and less speculative, than this site, thurrot, or onmsft.
    06-28-2017 09:24 AM
  5. kaktus1389's Avatar
    Well now we really are getting lost in some kind of communication rabbithole XD

    Are we talking about this tweet:


    @brandonleblanc
    @AlvaroM30 The team is working on delivering some features for enterprise customers later this summer.

    Which for same strange reason some blog writing people, in typically garbled fashion have assumed is only coming to the x3, despite many enterprise customers globally, not using the x3? Such as in one of onmsfts typically rambling speculations here: https://www.onmsft.com/news/windows-...for-enterprise

    I think it more likely that as this article ponders:

    https://www.neowin.net/news/microsof...ng-this-summer

    "it could mean improvements that are strictly for the Windows 10 Mobile Enterprise SKU of the OS, or he might be talking about Windows 10 Mobile features that are available to everyone, but aimed at the enterprise."

    Unless you have further info, I don't think there's any specific HP only element. Certainly nothing in that tweet suggests it.

    Interesting the same article points out he also says " I am not familiar with the roll-out plans beyond the Insider rings. I can ask some folks though.", which shows the insider team is not really privy to the big picture. And we shouldn't take their word as final on any big picture plans.
    I'll repeat myself if I didn't make myself clear earlier, it was my fault that I worded my first post badly - it was for enterprise features, not specifically for the x3. And yes, that was the tweet I meant.
    06-28-2017 09:30 AM
  6. DJCBS's Avatar
    MS has promised us a few features (timeline and files on demand, and the late summer enterprise features) - all officially, the former at build, and the enterprise features more recently. There is some kind of hardware being developed by HP (they have teased it, it might be a proto but it exists), and MSFT (its in the windows code AND has been referenced by insider leaks very broadly).
    Microsoft has made no such promises. Microsoft hasn't even acknowledged the existence of Windows Phones for the longest of times.
    HP had that phone on MWC, yes, but that doesn't mean it will ever come. In fact, as far as we know, that thing might have already been cancelled. Which is why HP never officially talked about it.
    And just because something is in the code doesn't mean it will reach mobile


    There's also Wharton brooks, who was told "we can't support you in rs3, because we are changing some things, so hold off for now" - people who are keen to make new phones, but have been told to wait.
    Wharton Brooks is the biggest joke to have ever graced the mobile world. They were all smoke and mirrors, completely deluded and basing their "hopes" on the existence of a Windows Phone - fan user base that actually doesn't exist and never has existed.
    Their Chinese clone phone flopped amazingly because simply no one is interested in buying Windows Phones. If people didn't buy them from Microsoft, they certainly wouldn't buy them from a no-name brand created by a fanboy with way too much time in his hands and very little understanding of the business world.
    Yeah, I'm being harsh but things are as they are.



    But, you know, the sky is falling, everything is dead, life is hopeless, and lets crawl into the corner, because MSFT has given up, despite its billions of income, and entire corporate vision of a one OS, cross-platform, mobile, wearable, VR future...., because, you know, spending a little less time of mobile for a portion of a year, and no new phones for 1.5 years = frak you guys.
    Microsoft knows when they lost a battle. Or are you still waiting for their new music player that will come replace the Zune too?

    Windows Phone IS dead. And so are Microsoft's chances in the mobile world for the forseeable future (and that's, say, the next 5 years at least). The success of the One OS does NOT depend on a mobile presence. In fact, it doesn't need it. Because in case you haven't noticed, Microsoft has been putting less and less emphasis on Windows as an OS and instead focusing on their services. Windows will ultimately become just a tool for Microsoft's other services. And those services already have a mobile presence.
    In fact, the most used operating system in the World - Android - already has a plethora of Microsoft services running in it and more will certainly come in the future.


    No, I am certain there are plans in place, new phones coming out sometime, and more features for win10m. I suspect there will even be a new branch of it, for the new device, because of what I have seen. But these things take time, and MSFT has MANY fish to fry (WoA on tablets/notebooks, raising the UWP adoption, Promoting Windows S, reclaiming console marketshare, making windows 10 as competitive as possible, advancing cloud service abilities and marketshare etc).
    I'm certain that NONE of that will happen ;)
    06-28-2017 09:36 AM
  7. Drael646464's Avatar
    I'll repeat myself if I didn't make myself clear earlier, it was my fault that I worded my first post badly - it was for enterprise features, not specifically for the x3. And yes, that was the tweet I meant.
    What my point was that if they were to release CShell for everyone then they would simply add those features to the CShell builds.
    Ah, well it says those features are coming at "the end of summer" and I think cshell is a long way off, as demo's show they are relatively incomplete.

    Also as I understand composable shell, its supposed to sit as a sort of independent layer ontop of the OS, regardless of the build or SKU (and detect what the form factor and SKU its operating ontop of, in order to determine how its displayed).

    In that sense I don't know if it is entirely bundled with the build, and if it is, I have to assume it will be bundled with the enterprise features as they are arriving much sooner.

    But I really am not 100 percent on what the above quote is actually saying.
    06-28-2017 09:38 AM
  8. Drael646464's Avatar
    Microsoft has made no such promises. Microsoft hasn't even acknowledged the existence of Windows Phones for the longest of times.
    You didn't watch the day 2 keynote of build 2017 I can only assume. Or read the tweet mentioned above. Either way, those are things microsoft has said it intends to bring to win10m. Want proof? Watch the keynote. They mention windows phone briefly when they demo files on demand on a Lumia. Look into it.

    Wharton Brooks is the biggest joke to have ever graced the mobile world. They were all smoke and mirrors, completely deluded and basing their "hopes" on the existence of a ..........
    Doesn't really relate to what they repeated back from MSFT about their potential phone not being supported for rs3, due to some changes to the platform upcoming, which was informative if vague, and not in any way related to the company itself. Which was the context of what I said.

    The success of the One OS does NOT depend on a mobile presence. In fact, it doesn't need it. Because in case you haven't noticed, Microsoft has been putting less and less emphasis on Windows as an OS and instead focusing on their services. Windows will ultimately become just a tool for Microsoft's other services. And those services already have a mobile presence.
    That's not an OS running across multiple hardware platforms. Its app services running on multiple disperate OSes. Those are vastly different things. One OS running on multiple hardware platforms and form factors, everything from "OD to 4D" (a slogan of their recent fluent design system, is one OS running on multiple hardware platforms, for everything from "no screen" to "VR/AR". Just like hot coffee is hot.

    I'm assuming you know what MSFT has said on the topic, and continues to, and that you understand what it means, but what you just wrote does make me wonder.
    06-28-2017 09:45 AM
  9. DJCBS's Avatar
    You didn't watch the day 2 keynote of build 2017 I can only assume. Or read the tweet mentioned above. Either way, those are things microsoft has said it intends to bring to win10m. Want proof? Watch the keynote. They mention windows phone briefly when they demo files on demand on a Lumia. Look into it.
    See, the difference is that I'm not putting hope or reading fantastical things on a tiny little reference made by Joe Belfiore - the former responsible for WP - who has just returned to Microsoft and likely didn't lose the habit of mentioning the now deceased platform, about fluent design being used across all sort of Windows devices.



    Doesn't really relate to what they repeated back from MSFT about their potential phone not being supported for rs3, due to some changes to the platform upcoming, which was informative if vague, and not in any way related to the company itself. Which was the context of what I said.
    It matters. It matter because what they did was come up with a vague excuse that can be formulated based purely on the rumours around the internet. NOTHING of what those con-artists said was based on internal information they got from Microsoft regarding some "super-secret come-back plan". Again, only delusions can lead to someone reading into vapor-words.




    That's not an OS running across multiple hardware platforms. Its app services running on multiple disperate OSes. Those are vastly different things. One OS running on multiple hardware platforms and form factors, everything from "OD to 4D" (a slogan of their recent fluent design system, is one OS running on multiple hardware platforms, for everything from "no screen" to "VR/AR". Just like hot coffee is hot.

    I'm assuming you know what MSFT has said on the topic, and continues to, and that you understand what it means, but what you just wrote does make me wonder.

    See, that's the thing. Microsoft is NOT looking at Windows as an OS in the traditional sense of the word. They're looking to turn Windows into a platform of experiences - with a unified design - that can run on any sort of device. Windows will, ultimately, become the bed for a bunch of other services. And like a bed, you can put it in other people's houses - Android / iOS / IoT etc.

    I've been hearing what Microsoft has been saying. Just like you. The difference is that I'm not trying to fit Microsoft's words into my desperate wish that they put out a new Windows phone anytime in the future. Because that won't happen.
    06-29-2017 12:30 PM
  10. Drael646464's Avatar
    See, the difference is that I'm not putting hope or reading fantastical things on a tiny little reference made by Joe Belfiore - the former responsible for WP - who has just returned to Microsoft and likely didn't lose the habit of mentioning the now deceased platform, about fluent design being used across all sort of Windows devices.
    He made a statement, in an approved speech, and it wasn't about fluent design, it was about timeline, cloud clipboard and files on demand. Twist anyway you want really, but it has been stated those features are coming to win10m, from an official source (rather that some speculative third hand Chinese whispers internet source, which is most people seem to get their information).

    It matters. It matter because what they did was come up with a vague excuse that can be formulated based purely on the rumours around the internet. NOTHING of what those con-artists said was based on internal information they got from Microsoft regarding some "super-secret come-back plan". Again, only delusions can lead to someone reading into vapor-words.
    Well, something is true or not regardless of who says it. And we have no way of verifying what they said or not, so perhaps that side topic should be put to rest.

    See, that's the thing. Microsoft is NOT looking at Windows as an OS in the traditional sense of the word.

    They're looking to turn Windows into a platform of experiences - with a unified design - that can run on any sort of device.
    That sounds like something you just made up. Not something MSFT has ever said. Source?

    I've been hearing what Microsoft has been saying. Just like you. The difference is that I'm not trying to fit Microsoft's words into my desperate wish that they put out a new Windows phone anytime in the future. Because that won't happen.
    Honestly I think the real difference is that I hear "one OS across multiple hardware platforms" or "0D to 4D" (part of the new fluent design scheme), or the many times, and many ways, that they talk about their new company vision, of a scaling, hardware agnostic OS, with voice platform, and mixed reality and I hear what they are literally, and plainly saying.

    When they say this stuff, you heard something else entirely, or tune it out, and I can't really say why that is. But if you don't take MSFT at face value based on what they directly say, anything I say isn't going to make any difference. I could get into a whole raft of direct quotes, but given our interaction so far, I don't think it will be compelling for you. You believe what you believe.
    06-29-2017 07:53 PM
  11. DJCBS's Avatar
    He made a statement, in an approved speech, and it wasn't about fluent design, it was about timeline, cloud clipboard and files on demand. Twist anyway you want really, but it has been stated those features are coming to win10m, from an official source (rather that some speculative third hand Chinese whispers internet source, which is most people seem to get their information).
    I await you to provide such official statement. Because Microsoft made no such thing. All there is around was Belfiore saying some things in an interview which does NOT constitute an official statement from Microsoft, specially when Belfiore isn't even responsible for Windows Phone or anything related to mobile anymore.
    Otherwise, you're just making scenes up in your head to justify your wishes that W10M isn't dead.

    Oh by the way, this would also be the moment to recall that, even when Microsoft announced things for mobile, they've cancelled them in the past. Remember the augmented reality app that they showcased at build and was going to be made available on phones? Yeah. That never happened.



    Well, something is true or not regardless of who says it. And we have no way of verifying what they said or not, so perhaps that side topic should be put to rest.
    Yes. After all, at any rate, the only people to have given those guys any credibility was one author here at Windows Central. Literally no one else ever believed a single word out of that deluded one-man company anyway.
    Let's move on.



    That sounds like something you just made up. Not something MSFT has ever said. Source?
    Every single Microsoft keynote where they addressed the future of Windows as a service. Whether you like it or not, Microsoft is working to transform Windows from a hardware-dependant OS into a cloud-based "system of experiences". Windows as a hardware-based OS is dying. That's just a fact. As an operating system, it has already been surpassed by Android. And sure, Microsoft could try to go around that by trying to put Windows in home appliances and cars and everything that moves. But they know that wouldn't solve the problem. So they're going in a different direction. By making Windows a non-hardware based system, they remove the hardware component. Moving it into the cloud will allow Microsoft to actually make Windows available everywhere. You have your mind focused around "0D to 4D" to try to justify Windows Mobile not dying. Problem is, you're failing to see that Microsoft isn't interested in the hardware part of it. They've said it time and again: they're a software company.
    By moving Windows to the cloud, they'll be able to offer you the entire Windows experience on any device...regardless of the operating system. That means you'll be able to have the Windows experience on Android devices and iOS devices (though on iOS I'm pretty sure Apple will try to find a way to prevent it).
    "Windows the operating system" will still be around, sure, on PCs and laptops/2in1's. But that's not the future of Windows.
    That's why Microsoft is investing so much on cloud-based solutions. That's why Microsoft is investing on making its services integrate so much with other operating systems (see Cortana on Android as a good example). After all, think about it: what is exactly the Windows experience? Is it the start menu and icons on a desktop? Well, Android has the exact same thing (see the Samsung DeX for example). Or is it the Microsoft services built on top of Windows? Well, those things can be put in other places. That's exactly what Microsoft is doing.


    Honestly I think the real difference is that I hear "one OS across multiple hardware platforms" or "0D to 4D" (part of the new fluent design scheme), or the many times, and many ways, that they talk about their new company vision, of a scaling, hardware agnostic OS, with voice platform, and mixed reality and I hear what they are literally, and plainly saying.

    When they say this stuff, you heard something else entirely, or tune it out, and I can't really say why that is. But if you don't take MSFT at face value based on what they directly say, anything I say isn't going to make any difference. I could get into a whole raft of direct quotes, but given our interaction so far, I don't think it will be compelling for you. You believe what you believe.
    The difference is that you keep thinking in present-terms. Your refusal to accept the death of Windows 10 Mobile and the failure of Microsoft's mobile (sort of) efforts, prevents you from seeing the path Microsoft is taking Windows to.
    You hear "hardware agnostic" and you just think "they mean it doesn't matter if it's a phone, a PC or a coffe table". But Microsoft is thinking beyond that. Your inner-wishes bind you to a vision that Microsoft isn't actually building (though, even if they were, Windows mobile would still be dead and so would any attempts at putting Windows on phones).
    I'll leave you with one last thing to think about: remember the development tools for UWP that Microsoft created? The so-called "bridges"? Well...remember bridges have two ways to cross them. If developers can turn their Android and iOS apps into Windows apps...they can turn their Windows apps into Android and iOS apps too. Now why would Microsoft be interested in that if they planned on making Windows available as a hardware-based OS in a bunch of different form factors ("0D to 4D" as you call it)?
    06-30-2017 10:18 AM
  12. aiharkness's Avatar
    I'm bummed. Whateve glimmer of hope I had, it is practically gone.

    Full disclosure, I'm a BB10 user who wants an alternative that is not iOS or Android. I was hoping a device running a Microsoft OS would be my alternative, maybe in a year or so. Not looking good.
    06-30-2017 07:13 PM
  13. Drael646464's Avatar
    I await you to provide such official statement.
    Keynote speech, day 2, build 2017. Watch the whole thing, you'll see they say this. Not in an interview, in approved official speeches. It's over an hour long, and you'll have to watch the whole thing to get context, but I am sure its on youtube.

    You might want to check out the fluent design official page too, seeing as that came up.

    Whether you like it or not, Microsoft is working to transform Windows from a hardware-dependant OS into a cloud-based "system of experiences".
    Source? Any real evidence for this, at all?

    As an operating system, it has already been surpassed by Android.
    To you, being very fractionally (and I mean very fractionally, the numerical difference is very slight) numerically surpassed by a FREE operating system, with your paid licensed operating system, to you equals = dead. That's a very hard to comprehend perspective.

    Free to air TV surpassed streaming and cable, but no one would have said that paid services are "dead" because of it.

    By making Windows a non-hardware based system, they remove the hardware component.
    This is their openly and repeatedly stated intent yet - to make windows, the _OS_, run on any hardware. They are super clear on this. No ambiguity. To focus on software, and to make Windows the one operating system that can run on anything.


    Might they fail? Sure.
    But that's the intent, there's no two ways about that.

    You have your mind focused around "0D to 4D" to try to justify Windows Mobile not dying.
    OD (no screen) up to (4D) virtual reality, is about MSFT making windows able to scale the OS experience of fluent design, to any device. They are clear on this, it's not reading tea leaves.

    It's merely one time they have repeatedly mentioned their desire to make windows capable of running on any hardware and any form factor.

    This is microsofts official vision for their OS. 0D of course means "no screen". Weve heard MSFT talk about that a lot, but no products yet.

    Doesn't mean they will be making, or focusing on phones, but it does mean they will continue to craft the software, to run on any device, including phones.

    Does it mean they will be successful either? No? Do I really care? Not super. I mean a world where android with its advertising creep, and apple with its walled garden were stronger, would be basically anti-consumer, but meh, there are more important things.

    By moving Windows to the cloud, they'll be able to offer you the entire Windows experience on any device...regardless of the operating system.
    Say whut?

    There is no indication whatsoever MS is "moving windows to the cloud".

    Is it the start menu and icons on a desktop? Well, Android has the exact same thing (see the Samsung DeX for example). Or is it the Microsoft services built on top of Windows? Well, those things can be put in other places. That's exactly what Microsoft is doing.
    It's a combination of all of the UI, the software OS stack behind it, and all the software that runs on it. For most people probably the most important element is the powerful desktop software.

    And no they can't. Android doesn't have the funding models to support desktop grade software, nor does iOS, and nobody really wants quantum break to, adobe illustrator on their tiny phone screens, let alone fork out real cash for it. I mean they shudder at paying four bucks for a silly little mobile game!

    Simply not going to happen.

    There's no call for real-time multi-tasking, or any of the UI or software features of windows, from android users either.

    There is an area of overlap between PCs and mobile, but mobile phones are mainly used for time-wasting activities and casual use, whereas bigger screens statistically, according to studies get used more often for indepth entertainment, gaming, content creation, productivity and so on.

    A mobile is a casual machine, statistically more likely to be used for snapchat or facebook

    Even something like a tablet - tablets are many times more likely to be used for shopping than a mobile.

    People just don't do the same kind of tasks on a tiny little screen with its inaccurate and messy input method, via a smartphone as they do on a tablet, or laptop, let alone a PC.

    What your talking about is like some kind of android fanboy fantasy. All MSFT is bringing to other mobile platforms is MSFT services, not windows as a whole. If anything features like timeline are designed to pull android and ios users into windows proper, if they don't like most people, use it already.

    If developers can turn their Android and iOS apps into Windows apps...they can turn their Windows apps into Android and iOS apps too.
    Not the way that you think they can. You're getting confused by the term bridge. To do that they use xamarin, not the software bridges (which are api's etc, they can't be used how you think). There is a software bridge for ios and win32 btw, not android.

    You can use xamarin to "code one, deploy multiply" by re-using up to 90% of code across windows, android and ios.

    Now why would Microsoft be interested in that if they planned on making Windows available as a hardware-based OS in a bunch of different form factors ("0D to 4D" as you call it)?
    It's a way to get people to code windows UWP apps. Well, one of many strategies to do so, including the, actually one way, bridges from ios or win32, windows s, windows 10 on arm etc.

    It's not a way to convert windows UWP into android apps or anything like it.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 06-30-2017 at 11:09 PM.
    06-30-2017 10:25 PM
  14. Drael646464's Avatar
    I'm going to guess you are a smartphone enthusiast. Maybe an android fan. Possibly in an emerging country. Maybe also an ex-windows mobile user.

    This sort of wild smartphone enthusiasm and complex speculation isn't your everyday perspective, not even amongst tech or mobile fans. There has to be a story behind that.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 06-30-2017 at 10:59 PM.
    06-30-2017 10:48 PM
  15. Drael646464's Avatar
    I'm bummed. Whateve glimmer of hope I had, it is practically gone.

    Full disclosure, I'm a BB10 user who wants an alternative that is not iOS or Android. I was hoping a device running a Microsoft OS would be my alternative, maybe in a year or so. Not looking good.
    Well there's whatever Andromeda is. That's in current windows code. There's insider leaks about it. Seems fairly probable that device, which running a branch of win10m, will be released at some point. Next year? IDK.

    HP's x3 refresh will likely also happen. That will most likely be in the next year. They have already teased the proto.

    But the 950/XL and x3 are all great devices anyway, even if they aren't that new. There isn't that much different between phones released this year, and a few years ago. x3 is pretty high end, and only a year or so old. And the 950's have camera's that still stand out.
    06-30-2017 11:12 PM
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