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  1. Mark Kaplan's Avatar
    06-26-2017 09:39 AM
  2. Damian Powell1's Avatar
    Checking out now.
    06-26-2017 09:42 AM
  3. libra89's Avatar
    Hmm, interesting viewpoint. Thanks for sharing.
    Guytronic likes this.
    06-26-2017 10:02 AM
  4. TgeekB's Avatar
    Its just an opinion, just like all of ours.
    Thanks for sharing.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    libra89 and Guytronic like this.
    06-26-2017 03:56 PM
  5. aiharkness's Avatar
    BB10 user here hoping to switch to a Microsoft smartphone device, and looking for new hardware.

    You can have hope, but without knowing new hardware is in the pipeline that hope is slim.

    If and when there is something new, I will go that route. And I am hoping, however slim it is.
    06-27-2017 04:57 AM
  6. Drael646464's Avatar
    It's amusing listening to the FUD crew. They will tell you that no new features are coming to current win10m phones, that there is a reboot, and paradoxically there are no new phones coming. None of which has any real evidence.

    MS has promised us a few features (timeline and files on demand, and the late summer enterprise features) - all officially, the former at build, and the enterprise features more recently. There is some kind of hardware being developed by HP (they have teased it, it might be a proto but it exists), and MSFT (its in the windows code AND has been referenced by insider leaks very broadly).

    There's also Wharton brooks, who was told "we can't support you in rs3, because we are changing some things, so hold off for now" - people who are keen to make new phones, but have been told to wait.

    But, you know, the sky is falling, everything is dead, life is hopeless, and lets crawl into the corner, because MSFT has given up, despite its billions of income, and entire corporate vision of a one OS, cross-platform, mobile, wearable, VR future...., because, you know, spending a little less time of mobile for a portion of a year, and no new phones for 1.5 years = frak you guys.

    lol.

    No, I am certain there are plans in place, new phones coming out sometime, and more features for win10m. I suspect there will even be a new branch of it, for the new device, because of what I have seen. But these things take time, and MSFT has MANY fish to fry (WoA on tablets/notebooks, raising the UWP adoption, Promoting Windows S, reclaiming console marketshare, making windows 10 as competitive as possible, advancing cloud service abilities and marketshare etc).

    If the key to their whole business was a successful mobile platform, which in very small part it is, that successful mobile platform is tied to UWP, which is tied to all the other areas. As many people say, its partly about the apps. Throwing all in, on mobile, without bringing that UWP up, and raising it higher, just IMO isn't very smart. Everything needs the correct timing, as with any corporate strategy.

    Imagine for example iPhone, before they had ipod. Wouldn't have worked as well.
    06-27-2017 10:47 PM
  7. Guytronic's Avatar
    Its just an opinion, just like all of ours.
    Eggzactly...
    Almost any attention paid to WM draws 30-40 followers.
    Another no substance article.

    Thanx to the OP for trying though.
    techiez and libra89 like this.
    06-28-2017 12:05 AM
  8. milkyway's Avatar
    Man, Drael, your optimism is admirable. But as someone here pointed out we long time MS users know that MS often breaks it's promises (I did not find any sources where MS promised to deliver this features to W10M).
    Even Windows Central now writes about W10M (the one we know) ending with feature2:
    https://www.windowscentral.com/windo...&utm_source=wp
    Guytronic and dgr_874 like this.
    06-28-2017 01:15 AM
  9. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    Found it a bit shallow and lacking much in way of new information

    I found this Forbes article interesting.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspe.../#5a06c2ff7051
    libra89 and Guytronic like this.
    06-28-2017 02:21 AM
  10. Drael646464's Avatar
    Man, Drael, your optimism is admirable. But as someone here pointed out we long time MS users know that MS often breaks it's promises (I did not find any sources where MS promised to deliver this features to W10M).
    Even Windows Central now writes about W10M (the one we know) ending with feature2:
    https://www.windowscentral.com/windo...&utm_source=wp
    MSFT promised to bring files on demand, and timeline to android, ios and windows 10 mobile at build 2017. That's in the day2 keynote, sure its on youtube. They said they were bringing enterprise features to win10m late summer, quite recently. This is something they said they were working with HP to create.

    Have corporations in general always kept their promises? No. MSFT certainly promised a 3d camera scanner, that never made it, and said they'd bring continuum updates in the CU, that appear to be a part of cshell that haven't made it yet. Yet.

    However they didn't make either of those promises with the INTENTION of not delivering them. And just because they delayed those features doesn't mean they will never come either. Actually traditionally a branch dev split is for feature delay while testing, bugfixing, or other work is completed. Not assuming that's what feature2 is, but that is the most common reason in development to split branches, feature delay.

    Listening to some commenters, you'd get the impression, MSFT is playing some kind of giant prank on consumers, lying outright or is so incompetent that they never have any kind of plan.

    What MSFT has said, is empirical. What people speculate might happen, or what bloggers are often saying, is not empirical, its speculative.

    I would say instead that many blog writers and fans seems hopelessly sceptical and cynical. To the point where they suggest combinations of doubt that make no sense. Such as "windows 10m is ending" but "there are no new devices" and "windows 10m is rebooting" but "while their are no new devices coming, also no current devices will get cshell"- which add together with all the logic of 1 + 1 = 4. A robot would have steam coming out of their ears trying to add all that together.

    I mean, if you are going to say "Everything MSFT says is a lie, and nothing good will ever happen to win10m", then even if something is going to happen, or msft makes a clear announcement or demo, your preconceived bias will prevent you from accepting it as true, until you physically see the device.

    That sort of thinking reminds me of depression, not realism.

    To be neutral is in fact to be open to all the possibilities, and assemble the evidence to make a hypothesis.

    Windows central has about as much evidence based reporting and consistency of position on win10m as any of the other windows blogs - which is just about none. It's like hearing about politics from a new age conspiracy theorist who can't make their mind up between an alien utopia and the birth of the antichrist.

    I might be a little bit optimistic. Sure. I'm no "surface phone is coming, everything will be peachy" man, but as far as I can see, I am more influenced by evidence and facts, than the majority of people who are commenting on win10m.

    I think there's a new SKU of win10m coming. But I've SEEN it, listed in the composable shell code, along side win10m, and heard it repeatedly referred to in insider leaks as "a branch". Why would win10m be in the composable shell code if it was ending or being replaced?
    I've never heard one insider refer to it as "a reboot" either, only bloggers who are pretty much jumping at shadows.

    I also don't make a big deal out of feature2. People are readying SO MUCH into that. It's just a dev branch. It doesn't mean the sky is falling. For sure IMO, HP and MSFTs new enterprise features will come late summer, I have zero doubt about that much - and that'll probably happen while mobile is still on feature2. And we don't have long to wait, but if that happens, and I am sure it will, it lays to rest this notion that feature to is sustained engineering doesn't it?

    Assuming that because feature2, since CU, has been entirely bugfixes, that it will always be bugfixes, is the sort of thinking referred to in psychology as superstition. That because there is no current plan to re-merge, than windows 10m is done. I mean that could be true, but its been what, a couple of months - and didn't a bunch of people complain about win10m being buggy? Making the system more stable and reliable, would be just as much a benefit for sustained engineering as it would getting win10m ready for more features later on.

    If you prefer, I'll be completely agnostic about it, that's always the most neutral position:

    ATM, we have bugfixes, we have Andromeda as "a branch in all likelihood", and we have some promise of features. Maybe the promise of features is not going to manifest, but its very unlikely its an _intentional lie_. It seems quite improbable indeed they intend to end win10m altogether whilst at the same time promising features for win10m. That makes no logical sense.

    Chances are likely they intend to deliver, given they promised. There is nothing whatsoever indicating a "reboot". There is probably changes coming to win10m however given what Whartonbrooks said. There are suggestions of new hardware, but we cannot be certain. They might decide at the last moment to pull everything despite the damage that would do to their UWP and business vision, but there are reasons to suspect that would be a bad idea.

    There are also sound business reasons why being all in on mobile would be a bad idea until the timing is right. UWP ideally needs to be more mature as a platform. And the device that operates as a flagwaver for said windows mobile devices, ought to be "right" to draw consumer attention. This, logically is not a problem for MSFT, that justifies raw "commitment" and throwing money at is, as logical, viable solutions.

    Despite how consumers might feel about the issue. Its not a simple solve. Let's be honest, what consumers what, and commercial realities are often miles apart.

    And past decisions, such as the decision to dump Lumia, are perfectly commercially sound, even if consumer fans would have you believe that's the more irrational choice they could have made.

    Consumers will use that as evidence MSFT is irrational and has no idea what its doing, despite Lumia bleeding money. Was it nessasary for MSFT to create a mobile product? Maybe. Maybe there was a better way, such as a partnership. Maybe it was undermarketed, maybe maybe maybe.....But after it happened under balmer, commercially it HAD to be killed. Investment risk and cost needs to be proportional to likelihood of return. That ended up being basically burning money.

    The proof is in the pudding in the end. I may be wrong, but so might be anyone else, but at least, I try to deal in the known, the empirical. A lot of fans and commenters seem to deal in the emotional, it terms of what "they would like to see happen" versus what "has actually happened". Like a dark cloud has been placed over the perceptive faculties, and a dark cloud that seems to spread from person to person like a contagion.

    If such people want to claim realism, or objectivity, lets see their scepticism swing both ways, and some logic and empiricism enter the equation. Then we can talk about bias.
    That's about as neutral as I can get. Can I know for sure whats coming? No. But is it _rational_ to believe in all the FUD? IMO, no it's not rational.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 06-28-2017 at 02:57 AM.
    holohglr likes this.
    06-28-2017 02:45 AM
  11. techiez's Avatar
    It's amusing listening to the FUD crew. They will tell you that no new features are coming to current win10m phones, that there is a reboot, and paradoxically there are no new phones coming. None of which has any real evidence.

    MS has promised us a few features (timeline and files on demand, and the late summer enterprise features) - all officially, the former at build, and the enterprise features more recently. There is some kind of hardware being developed by HP (they have teased it, it might be a proto but it exists), and MSFT (its in the windows code AND has been referenced by insider leaks very broadly).

    There's also Wharton brooks, who was told "we can't support you in rs3, because we are changing some things, so hold off for now" - people who are keen to make new phones, but have been told to wait.

    But, you know, the sky is falling, everything is dead, life is hopeless, and lets crawl into the corner, because MSFT has given up, despite its billions of income, and entire corporate vision of a one OS, cross-platform, mobile, wearable, VR future...., because, you know, spending a little less time of mobile for a portion of a year, and no new phones for 1.5 years = frak you guys.

    lol.

    No, I am certain there are plans in place, new phones coming out sometime, and more features for win10m. I suspect there will even be a new branch of it, for the new device, because of what I have seen. But these things take time, and MSFT has MANY fish to fry (WoA on tablets/notebooks, raising the UWP adoption, Promoting Windows S, reclaiming console marketshare, making windows 10 as competitive as possible, advancing cloud service abilities and marketshare etc).

    If the key to their whole business was a successful mobile platform, which in very small part it is, that successful mobile platform is tied to UWP, which is tied to all the other areas. As many people say, its partly about the apps. Throwing all in, on mobile, without bringing that UWP up, and raising it higher, just IMO isn't very smart. Everything needs the correct timing, as with any corporate strategy.

    Imagine for example iPhone, before they had ipod. Wouldn't have worked as well.
    Well how do you explain MS leaving out most of the devices out of CU when insiders and ppl hacking their phones have mentioned that CU gives better performance.
    06-28-2017 02:53 AM
  12. Drael646464's Avatar
    Well how do you explain MS leaving out most of the devices out of CU when insiders and ppl hacking their phones have mentioned that CU gives better performance.
    I think that's relatively easy to explain logically. Go look in the forums for those 8.1 phones, and see all the many bugs such users complain of using win10m. MSFT said "they were too buggy to justify supporting". looking at the issues such users report, frequent crashing, reboots, microphones dying, camera faults and really, more than I can list - it seems objectively what they said is true.

    That commercially it would have cost a lot more to support those phones, than the number of users justified, especially with the smaller scale of the current mobile team.

    Plus, all those phones are really old. No mobile OS maker supports phones forever, whether they can technically run the OS or not. It's just not commercially sound to do so. Apple dropped iPhone 5, and that's not all that old. Android phones frequenly never get revision updates to a new version of android.

    I wouldn't recommend honestly anyone even use an 8.1 phone on win10m, let alone on CU. Their are faults on my 950 that were only resolved in the latest insiders preview, like Bluetooth issues. And that's a phone that shipped with 10m.

    Just like often its better leaving your android or apple phone on the version number it shipped with, and updating can just cause problems.

    Actually honestly I think its very justifiable the mobile team has focused primarily on bugfixes since CU. The platform has needed some refinement there IMO.

    If a few more months were entirely bugfixes, I could see that being a good thing.
    06-28-2017 03:01 AM
  13. Drael646464's Avatar
    Actually I think 8.1 phones running win10m, have contributed to the perception win10m is buggy, along with the fact, that prior to the most recent builds on supported hardware, it has been objectively buggy on all devices.

    I think there are still a few small creases to iron out, if I am honest about it. I can understand MSFT wanting to capture those audiences, and show commercial loyalty in order to retain its fanbase. But I can also see flaws with trying to support that many phones with bugs still needing fixing, and a smaller mobile crew. I can absolutely understand why they are now reducing the number of phones to support, to a more manageable number, and think perhaps they should have done this sooner. Maybe with the AU. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
    06-28-2017 03:21 AM
  14. kaktus1389's Avatar
    It's amusing listening to the FUD crew. They will tell you that no new features are coming to current win10m phones, that there is a reboot, and paradoxically there are no new phones coming. None of which has any real evidence.

    MS has promised us a few features (timeline and files on demand, and the late summer enterprise features) - all officially, the former at build, and the enterprise features more recently. There is some kind of hardware being developed by HP (they have teased it, it might be a proto but it exists), and MSFT (its in the windows code AND has been referenced by insider leaks very broadly).

    There's also Wharton brooks, who was told "we can't support you in rs3, because we are changing some things, so hold off for now" - people who are keen to make new phones, but have been told to wait.

    But, you know, the sky is falling, everything is dead, life is hopeless, and lets crawl into the corner, because MSFT has given up, despite its billions of income, and entire corporate vision of a one OS, cross-platform, mobile, wearable, VR future...., because, you know, spending a little less time of mobile for a portion of a year, and no new phones for 1.5 years = frak you guys.

    lol.

    No, I am certain there are plans in place, new phones coming out sometime, and more features for win10m. I suspect there will even be a new branch of it, for the new device, because of what I have seen. But these things take time, and MSFT has MANY fish to fry (WoA on tablets/notebooks, raising the UWP adoption, Promoting Windows S, reclaiming console marketshare, making windows 10 as competitive as possible, advancing cloud service abilities and marketshare etc).

    If the key to their whole business was a successful mobile platform, which in very small part it is, that successful mobile platform is tied to UWP, which is tied to all the other areas. As many people say, its partly about the apps. Throwing all in, on mobile, without bringing that UWP up, and raising it higher, just IMO isn't very smart. Everything needs the correct timing, as with any corporate strategy.

    Imagine for example iPhone, before they had ipod. Wouldn't have worked as well.
    Not so sure about your comment on the iPhone though. Apple's marketing was doing great job with marketing all of their products, that's why there are so many Apple users out there, not because they would all understand any of the technology behind their phones.

    Yes, MS promised us some new features, or better, they promised HP some new enterprise focused features for Windows 10 Mobile. What I think is going to happen is that they are going to deliver that feature for HP and keep Windows 10 Mobile on feature2 branch until HP gives up. Meanwhile only thing that would make sense is that MS would merge Mobile with full Windows 10 that is coming to ARM this fall since sometimes we forget that that is Microsoft's main goal - to have one OS running on all kinds of device families.

    To be honest it's true that MS gets most of their money from Windows 10, cloud and Office subscriptions, but we need to ask ourselves how much more profit would they get if they would have a successful mobile platform out there. Sure, they would need to invest a lot of money but I am afraid that they're not really a small business that can't afford that if they could have afforded buying whole Nokia's mobile division. They should have used Nokia better (all Nokia feature phones I could find in my flat were made in Finland, Microsoft Lumias are all made in Vietnam or China - just want to say that Nokia feature phones were made where Nokia is based), not just to lay their employees off, perhaps they will do that once they merge the operating systems.

    Now to get back to the second point - MS promised lots of things that got either pushed back or just never happened. We don't know what was originally meant to happen with Windows 10 Mobile, since one does not just put half baked OS out on their flagship devices.

    Not sure for how long have you been a Windows phone user, but for sure I can say that MS promised us improvements for Continuum with RS2 already and all we got were bugfixes and updated share icon. Not sure how would you feel about that after investing in UWP apps, OneDrive, Office subscription, get your family to use Windows phones too, and you would be so happy to see improvements but you don't, just like a child whose mother doesn't want to buy him chocolate but she promised him she would do so.

    We don't know what would be if McLaren was released, we don't know what would happen if the 950/XL were released in the shape that they were supposed to be released, we don't know what would happen if MS would just let Nokia do their thing with phones and not destroy them. But at the end, it doesn't even matter, does it, because we are where we are and all we can expect for now is 3-5 lines long changelogs and wait for Microsoft to do the thing that they think is right to do.

    We would probably all like to be optimists here, but sometimes it's just not healthy for your wallet and your enthusiasm.

    And oh, the article doesn't tell anything particularly new, except that it's the first site that's not Windows Central that said that Windows 10 Mobile is not dead. Yesterday I caught Daniel Rubino's comments on Windows Phone subreddit where he says: "I do not care about Mobile, we write about mobile because our readership is interested in mobile". I think that's pretty much an answer to all of our questions in the universe regarding Windows 10 Mobile for now.
    06-28-2017 04:02 AM
  15. Drael646464's Avatar
    Not so sure about your comment on the iPhone though. Apple's marketing was doing great job with marketing all of their products, that's why there are so many Apple users out there, not because they would all understand any of the technology behind their phones.
    Before the ipod, apple was on the brink of bankruptcy. Bill gates personally bailed them out.

    They stripped their mac line down to two models, steve jobs had to return to save the company. They were on life support, and they weren't cool or popular. During that time, jobs admitted he had no plan other than 'to wait for the next big thing'.

    The ipod, made way for the iPhone. Sure the marketing helped a lot, with the ipod, but it was iTunes and their momentum that provided the bridge, so far as I can see. Perhaps the iPhone might have had some success without the ipod, but historically speaking, it was the ipod that saved the company and made apple cool and mainstream. Before then, they were a failing company the masses didn't want anything to do with, advertising or not.

    Meanwhile only thing that would make sense is that MS would merge Mobile with full Windows 10 that is coming to ARM this fall since sometimes we forget that that is Microsoft's main goal - to have one OS running on all kinds of device families.
    I think that's a while off. I mean there's no real benefit at present for the average consumer from that. enterprise, certainly. But you can't run win32's on a smartphone screen, without the program being adapted. Developers need audiences. Same circle, same problem. UWP is the future anyway.

    I mean equally they could phase out win32 on everything but pro/enterprise editions, focus on UWP, which in a way would make sense. Then only thing missing from mobile would be the shell, then it would be the same experience as home.

    And of course IoT core doesn't run win32. Nor are connected smart devices likely to have snapdragon 835s and 4gb of ram any time soon, nor any use for running win32s.

    Yeah, long run, its a merger, but I don't see a lot of benefit in rushing it. The UWP platform is really the key - adaptive UI apps that run _natively_ across hardware, and a variety of screen sizes and interfaces. That's what unifies windows IMO.

    Its a very long play, this whole "one OS" vision. But whether its wildly successful in the long run, or a total flop, it doesn't really make sense for a billion quarterly revenue company with a passionate leadership and a renewed company energy to roll over and give up, until the fat lady really _really_ sings.

    I mean BB made yearly losses for nearly a decade, and borrowed money, before re-strategizing the company, and they still lease their name to TCL, and have had some success with the KEYone. A company with far more optimism, passion and resources isn't likely to just sit and rock in the corner.

    To be honest it's true that MS gets most of their money from Windows 10, cloud and Office subscriptions, but we need to ask ourselves how much more profit would they get if they would have a successful mobile platform out there
    I'm sure they are aware. there's more to market success than throwing money at things though. Marketshare was shrinking before nokia was sold. It's a nebulous and complex thing at times capitalism, as much as its also easy to simplify from the sidelines. Although I do agree that its probably worth spending money on this market, but its not entirely certain they are not - I imagine their new win10m sibling OS SKU and matching device under the "Andromeda" handle, is not going to be a super cheap venture. We'll have to see what that is, and how it fairs now I guess.

    Kind of hoping that comes in the next year, as I am getting tired of the belly aching of some folks XD

    Not sure for how long have you been a Windows phone user, but for sure I can say that MS promised us improvements for Continuum with RS2 already and all we got were bugfixes and updated share icon
    Well here MSFT can't do anything right, according to fans can they? Promise people things = overpromise, people are disappointed. Promise people nothing until its ready? = windows 10 is dead, lets all move to android.

    I actually can't see a place atm, where some people would be happy with anything msft does. We want a commitment! (You gave us a commitment and didn't deliver! Because you failed in the past to deliver nothing you say is true!)

    I do see your point. Continuum updates exist but they were delayed (until whenever/however cshell is released). MSFT has had a past tendancy to overpromise. Bit of an error.

    Now they are going the other way, and being non-specific about release schedules and specific plans. But my only point is, some fans are happy with neither, nor anything inbetween!

    I'd also add that the share button is awesome, as is the pdf reader in edge (there's also the new 3d viewer which will be handy with story remix), and the focus on bugfixing is probably long overdue based on feedback and my own experiences pre-insiders preview.

    A little bit feature poor, but not exactly useless features either. I use share almost every day, same with pdfs in edge (its a great pdf reader, really fast next to adobe)

    we don't know what would happen if MS would just let Nokia do their thing with phones and not destroy them
    AFAIK that's not exactly what happened. What I understood was nokia was already making windows phones, but losing money. They wanted a life boat, and MSFT purchased them.

    Then MSFT used them as a vehicle to flood the market with a whole load of models, lost EVEN more money without gaining much from it, and shareholders had a tanty and replaced the CEO, who basically could not do anything but sell nokia, and try to pitch another strategy.

    Nokia was failing on its own, before it was purchased.
    Am I wrong? That's what I heard.

    But at the end, it doesn't even matter, does it, because we are where we are and all we can expect for now is 3-5 lines long changelogs and wait for Microsoft to do the thing that they think is right to do.
    A few more months of bugfixes could be a great thing for the platform IMO. Get that thing really stable, fast, battery efficient if possible.

    But yeah, no point in ruminating on the past, especially the past of different leaderships. We are where we are, and its going where it is going. Very zen, and I totally agree.

    I mean, I'm happy with my phone. Really happy. It's stable, has a great UI, some killer OS features and a lot of great apps that I can share with my tablet and desktop.

    UWP is picking up pace, so far as I can see. Its, for me, a pleasant experience next to bb10 or android. I have no real complaints outside of the godaweful bloat that is the FB app

    (which is admittedly a cross platform problem that simply is a bit worse on win10m - that's what you get when your app is, an app platform, a video chat, a browser, a bot chat system a social network, a file sharing platform, and god knows what else)

    And oh, the article doesn't tell anything particularly new, except that it's the first site that's not Windows Central that said that Windows 10 Mobile is not dead.
    For the most part, yes its just a bunch of opinion. Its a shame it didn't substaintate the one thing it said that wasn't entirely non-unique, that windows has a fanbase that is much bigger than its marketshare. That's absolutely true, and comScore measured 2.7 percent installed userbase just last year in the US, while marketshare was well below one percent.

    That isn't often said, and widely misunderstood (people frequently conflate installed userbase with current marketshare, or netshare) so a bit of a missed opportunity.

    Something probably Microsoft should agknolwegde at some point IMO, assuming its machinations in the mobile space take shape in the future - the fans have been very loyal.

    Enjoy what you enjoy, back what you back, criticize what merits it, be somewhere between seeing what's possible and being objective and critical, and you'll usually come off not being drawn into hopeless hope, or meaningless doubt.

    There's something between the artist and the skeptic, the optimist and the pessimist, and I think it psychologically and practically affords you a realistic and balanced existence.

    If win10 is dropped for support tomorrow, I will shed zero tears. I'd like timeline mainly, as promised, but handoff is nearly as good. UWP ain't going anywhere. And bugfixes will receive no complaints from me - they fixed my Bluetooth issues.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 06-28-2017 at 06:32 AM.
    06-28-2017 06:13 AM
  16. kaktus1389's Avatar
    I think that's a while off. I mean there's no real benefit at present for the average consumer from that. enterprise, certainly. But you can't run win32's on a smartphone screen, without the program being adapted. Developers need audiences. Same circle, same problem. UWP is the future anyway
    I didn't say anything about Win32 apps, just about one Windows running across all kinds of devices. Of course you can't run Win32 apps on HoloLens or Band. What I meant is that they would get rid of their bad reputation with "Windows Phone" and "Windows 10 Mobile", instead it would just be Windows 10 and that is what they're really trying to do anyway (going away from bad reputation is what I mean).


    I do see your point. Continuum updates exist but they were delayed (until whenever/however cshell is released). MSFT has had a past tendancy to overpromise. Now they are going the other way, and being non-specific about release schedules and specific plans. But my only point is, some fans are happy with neither, nor anything inbetween.
    What are "Continuum updates" is as you mentioned CShell and that is most likely not coming to existing phones which basically means we will need to spend money again on a new device that is going to support it.

    A few more months of bugfixes could be a great thing for the platform IMO. Get that thing really stable, fast, battery efficient if possible. But yeah, no point in ruminating on the past, especially the past of different leaderships. We are where we are, and its going where it is going. Very zen, and I totally agree.
    I used 8.1 and there were no bugs, apps launched right away even after updates not like now (never said I was not happy with my phone, just that I expected more). My point is, they should have done it properly without major bugs in the first place and use resources and time now for more important stuff regarding UWP or Continuum or testing more McLaren stuff.

    AFAIK that's not exactly what happened. What I understood was nokia was already making windows phones, but losing money. They wanted a life boat, and MSFT purchased them. Then MSFT used them as a vehicle to flood the market with a whole load of models, lost EVEN more money without gaining much from it, and shareholders had a tanty and replaced the CEO, who basically could not do anything but sell nokia, and try to pitch another strategy.
    But Nokia was not making Windows Phones only ;) From what I understood MS bought them because their contract was expiring soon and Nokia was to move forward with Android. And if you only look at United States (which this site mostly does), then yes, Nokia probably was not doing that great. In Europe I could see Windows Phones quite frequently (market share was at around 10% since Nokia was European company).

    I know Bill Gates helped Apple, but honestly I didn't see many people carrying around Pre-Windows Phone 7 devices before iPhone came out.

    Now we can go on and on and on for hours, days, weeks, months, years maybe even decades but at the end of the day it's Microsoft who decide what will they do about their mobile platform. So all we get to do right now is wait for better times, I will try to hold on to my 950 for one more year. If I won't see anything encouraging then I won't hesitate to jump ship to iOS.
    06-28-2017 06:30 AM
  17. Drael646464's Avatar
    I didn't say anything about Win32 apps, just about one Windows running across all kinds of devices. Of course you can't run Win32 apps on HoloLens or Band. What I meant is that they would get rid of their bad reputation with "Windows Phone" and "Windows 10 Mobile", instead it would just be Windows 10 and that is what they're really trying to do anyway (going away from bad reputation is what I mean).
    So you were talking about branding? I don't think the average joe even knows windows mobile exists. Its hard to have a bad reputation, when you barely have one.

    What are "Continuum updates" is as you mentioned CShell and that is most likely not coming to existing phones which basically means we will need to spend money again on a new device that is going to support it.
    Not coming to existing devices based on what?

    I used 8.1 and there were no bugs, apps launched right away even after updates not like now (never said I was not happy with my phone, just that I expected more). My point is, they should have done it properly without major bugs in the first place and use resources and time now for more important stuff regarding UWP or Continuum or testing more McLaren stuff.
    Yeah, I heard the 950 etc was pretty buggy on release. Perhaps that's true. But its the past as you said. I think windows on arm, and windows s, are pretty much both almost entirely about UWP and creating more userbase. Its doing to be pretty big for tablets IMO (smaller sizes, longer battery, instant on etc).

    But Nokia was not making Windows Phones only ;) From what I understood MS bought them because their contract was expiring soon and Nokia was to move forward with Android.
    Usually companies sell because the offer is better than their prospects. Snapchat for example was offered 2 billion by facebook when they were still tiny, and they turned them down. Was that the right call? IDK, but if nokia though they could net 1 billion profit, rather than take the 1 billion cash, they wouldn't have taken the offer. Things must have looked grim I think.

    And if you only look at United States (which this site mostly does), then yes, Nokia probably was not doing that great. In Europe I could see Windows Phones quite frequently (market share was at around 10% since Nokia was European company).
    That's post the sale, AFAIK. And yes, like NZ, Australia,UK - EU, received windows phones well. But nokia was still losing money, and then they also started losing marketshare, before it was sold. Maybe they should have kept on, or maybe it would not have been enough. Probably their model volume was larger than it should have been. They might have focused more on emerging markets and budget devices. IDK. its easier to judge, than to do especially in hindsight.

    Now we can go on and on and on for hours, days, weeks, months, years maybe even decades but at the end of the day it's Microsoft who decide what will they do about their mobile platform. So all we get to do right now is wait for better times, I will try to hold on to my 950 for one more year. If I won't see anything encouraging then I won't hesitate to jump ship to iOS.
    Fair enough. I'll probably have my 950 for another 3. I don't cycle phones fast. Unless of course, Andromeda looks really really cool, or someone else releases a dope new windows phone. If win10m died, well I guess I'd try apple. I hate their attitude to consumers, and I think if MSFT fails in general, and google and apple rule, it might even be bad for the evolution of technology and even humanity, given those companies are sort of anti-freedom, and anti-consumer with their increasing consumer lock-in. If msft ever falls I hope someone takes their place - they have been freindly to gamers, developers, and other technical cowbots for a long time.

    But even if so, I'll need a new phone eventually. Maybe I can use a paper cup with a bit of string lol.

    Assuming we don't get folding phones, AR glasses, ascend to a higher plane, or get wiped out by an asteroid or an outbreak of virulent measles. In the end, I probably care more about how companies are influencing humanity with their personal visions, than I am about a silly phone. The phone is fun, and it does stuff. But we are all going to die, so who really cares about that :P

    Oh look, my phone just got a bugfix update. Nice :)
    06-28-2017 06:46 AM
  18. kaktus1389's Avatar
    Not coming to existing devices based on what?
    Based on Microsoft's reputation of pushing older devices out of the update cycle even though they run new updates quite well. Let's take the 930 for example - it was a flagship before 950 and it had 2 GB of RAM. I bet it could run Continuum "OK", but MS didn't allow older phones to get Continuum.
    techiez likes this.
    06-28-2017 07:10 AM
  19. techiez's Avatar
    Well dont have time now to counter every point, will do later, but here's a perspective as to why ppl are pissed off with MS.
    MS has done 2reboots already, and each time it was kept secretive until last minute and then users were bombed with the news that their phones wont be upgraded,now you and many others have compared this with android and apple, but MS cant be compared to the same, because android and ios are already stabilized, so what you miss are new features but atleast their present versions work. its not the same case with WP/WM, early adopters bought the phones knowing the limitations yes, but its also fair to expect that MS will provide updates until bugs are fixed and we get feature parity.Imagine ppl stuck with brand new lumia 800/900s that werent upgraded and you couldnt even mass select pictures in gallary for deletion.
    WM users should expect better features on MS apps for WM but thats not the case, IOS and Android have more MS apps, get more features than WM.

    MS is super secretive about their future plans and in all likeliness they wont enter consumer market again with regular phones, but new form factors will not be in consumers hands for atleast 2-3 years, just look at hololens as an example.

    so all this secrecy is killing fans, and developers as well, look at the apps shutdown one by one, UWP may be the future but it doesnt look so bright in near future.

    MS still doesnt understand that this is not enterprise where u go them only when your product is ready and they buy it. They need to show a roadmap, so consumers know when they can buy new devices, so developers decide when and how much to invest in the ecosystem. CShell for me is overhyped, it offers nothing to the ecosystem that will drive growth and attract devs. it may be make easier for developers to target multiple form factors who are already ready to develop for MS ecosystem but for others there are no devices to utilize CShell and drive mass adoption, if MS launches new hardware, devs will only play a wait n watch game, but regular consumers will not be interested unless there are apps. and also MS is racing against time to bring out new features which also means there will be lot of bugs initially, just look at previous MS launches, it will surely hit the new hardware negatively. you might say this is FUD and there's no reason y MS cant deliver a polished software, but history is not MS side, and if and when 1st gen new hardware will have issues, everyone will say, oh this is MS, expect the bugs to be ironed out by 2nd or 3rd gen.

    I've ranted enuf, will stop, I dont even know if what I;ve written above is coherent or I've lost the message :P
    kaktus1389 likes this.
    06-28-2017 07:36 AM
  20. techiez's Avatar
    Based on Microsoft's reputation of pushing older devices out of the update cycle even though they run new updates quite well. Let's take the 930 for example - it was a flagship before 950 and it had 2 GB of RAM. I bet it could run Continuum "OK", but MS didn't allow older phones to get Continuum.
    MS doesnt understand that its dealing with avg ppl for whom even 300$ is significant and ppl cant just throw away that kind of money.but they with their enterprise mindset keep leaving their fans behind as if they are dealing with enterprises with deep pockets.
    kaktus1389 likes this.
    06-28-2017 07:38 AM
  21. kaktus1389's Avatar
    CShell for me is overhyped, it offers nothing to the ecosystem that will drive growth and attract devs
    It is a step forward to "one Windows" though.
    06-28-2017 07:58 AM
  22. Drael646464's Avatar
    Based on Microsoft's reputation of pushing older devices out of the update cycle even though they run new updates quite well. Let's take the 930 for example - it was a flagship before 950 and it had 2 GB of RAM. I bet it could run Continuum "OK", but MS didn't allow older phones to get Continuum.
    Yeah, I don't see those events that way. Current 8.1 phones on win10 run buggy according to all accounts. Upgrading a whole version is also buggy on android. Its not ideal. Same is true of recent CU "drop outs", they all seem to run very buggy on CU, when its installed.

    So I see that as a practical business decision - hard to support, not enough users to justify the spending, cut it out. Just like the iPhone 5 is likely perfectly capable of running ios 11 but isn't given the upgrade, or the Samsung 7 might be perfectly capable of running android O, but will never get it.

    It's not like these are purely randomly determined, or without any explaination. Or just to annoy people.

    If cshell never comes to existing phones, at least there will have to be new phones. So I guess you are actually saying something quite optimistic - that before or at the release of cshell there will be several new windows 10 phones, to supplant the support of existing ones.

    I mean ATM, "current phones" are "then only phones". To "cut" those, you'd need a similar number of models to supplant them. So by logic you are suggesting 3-5 new windows phones in the year or so cshell will likely take.


    Assuming there is logic as a factor in all this. That's probably optimistic from my POV, or IMO. I could see a few more phones before cshell, but not equal to the number of currently supported phones, and not nessasarily with any meaningful userbase either

    Although, clearly the x3 is already being used for testing cshell. Which would make it pretty easy to support given it appears to be being used as a reference model.
    Last edited by Drael646464; 06-28-2017 at 08:34 AM.
    06-28-2017 08:15 AM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    Well dont have time now to counter every point, will do later, but here's a perspective as to why ppl are pissed off with MS.
    MS has done 2reboots already, and each time it was kept secretive until last minute and then users were bombed with the news that their phones wont be upgraded,now you and many others have compared this with android and apple, but MS cant be compared to the same, because android and ios are already stabilized, so what you miss are new features but atleast their present versions work. its not the same case with WP/WM, early adopters bought the phones knowing the limitations yes, but its also fair to expect that MS will provide updates until bugs are fixed and we get feature parity.Imagine ppl stuck with brand new lumia 800/900s that werent upgraded and you couldnt even mass select pictures in gallary for deletion.
    WM users should expect better features on MS apps for WM but thats not the case, IOS and Android have more MS apps, get more features than WM.

    MS is super secretive about their future plans and in all likeliness they wont enter consumer market again with regular phones, but new form factors will not be in consumers hands for atleast 2-3 years, just look at hololens as an example.

    so all this secrecy is killing fans, and developers as well, look at the apps shutdown one by one, UWP may be the future but it doesnt look so bright in near future.

    MS still doesnt understand that this is not enterprise where u go them only when your product is ready and they buy it. They need to show a roadmap, so consumers know when they can buy new devices, so developers decide when and how much to invest in the ecosystem. CShell for me is overhyped, it offers nothing to the ecosystem that will drive growth and attract devs. it may be make easier for developers to target multiple form factors who are already ready to develop for MS ecosystem but for others there are no devices to utilize CShell and drive mass adoption, if MS launches new hardware, devs will only play a wait n watch game, but regular consumers will not be interested unless there are apps. and also MS is racing against time to bring out new features which also means there will be lot of bugs initially, just look at previous MS launches, it will surely hit the new hardware negatively. you might say this is FUD and there's no reason y MS cant deliver a polished software, but history is not MS side, and if and when 1st gen new hardware will have issues, everyone will say, oh this is MS, expect the bugs to be ironed out by 2nd or 3rd gen.

    I've ranted enuf, will stop, I dont even know if what I;ve written above is coherent or I've lost the message :P
    I'm sure past users of windows 7, as consumers, or windows 8, have plenty of reasons to be pissed. And there are certainly reasons to be uncertain atm about the exact future of the platform. I mean, be suspicious if that's how you are left feeling.

    But that's different from everything is going to hell, for sure, as a fact. Commerce is also a different reality from the feelings of consumer experience, as real and understable as those feelings can be.

    Just as I also understand MSFT needed to pivot, quite severely, and under the circumstances of that pivot, and the size of it, I think overall they did very well. Windows 10, is not the mess of windows 8 or vista. And they did capture some touch market via tablets, which they could have easily lost. Windows mobile users didn't fair well, just as the market didn't favour them. MSFT now has "a chance", to compete in general.

    They have successfully rebranded into a company which people can trust to produce quality, and to innovate, via the surface family etc. Maybe there's more work to go, but Nadella kind of turned the company around (although he certainly needed to stand on the shoulders of others like gates and ballmer to do that)

    If 8 didn't exist, 10 wouldn't exist. If 10 didn't exist, msft would currently be losing marketshare even more to apple and google. Can you imagine a world where msft had stayed on windows 7? What a mess.

    Do you think they'd have survived long term? So as annoying as consumers might find those reboots, I can't really see any other practical way.

    BB users feel much the same, and I have recently been a BB user. But again, the market didn't really favour them either.

    BB also had a reboot, which also conjures mixed feelings. I understand all this, as its pretty similar to bb's story.

    But you know, the fact they are focusing on bugfixes now = better later than never right?

    And UWP, apps are pretty Important, with windows on arm, and windows s, UWP is clearly in the spotlight.

    Ultimately for myself, I think msft's treatment of its consumers is generous and "free" next to google and apple. Its not without some glaring flaws, but I'd rather be here than over there, with constant ad creep, privacy invasion, and walled garden lock in.


    That's just me. I agknowledge your valid feelings though, and your past experiences with historical Microsoft products. Its a shame for example, they ditched band. Clearly sometimes they talk a big game about wearables and such, but they can be a bit panzy on the follow through. All valid stuff.
    06-28-2017 08:31 AM
  24. kaktus1389's Avatar
    So by logic you are suggesting 3-5 new windows phones in the year or so cshell will likely take.
    What I am suggesting is that if they were to release CShell to everyone anyway, they would not be working on specific features for HP Elite x3 only on the feature2 branch.
    06-28-2017 08:39 AM
  25. Drael646464's Avatar
    What I am suggesting is that if they were to release CShell to everyone anyway, they would not be working on specific features for HP Elite x3 only on the feature2 branch.
    Do you have an official source, that says they are working on specific features for the elite x3 only?

    Although you may have a point, that cshell currently doesn't run on the lumias. Which may or may not mean something. Hard to tell. That said, the x3 is "a current phone", which you said would not be getting cshell.

    It's also not much of a userbase for testing win10m software, if they limited all future features to one, not hugely popular phone. There would need to be a few more phones than that, to justify dropping support for the most popular recent handsets, which have, up to very recently (and perhaps still) been used as reference hardware.
    06-28-2017 08:56 AM
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