10-29-2015 07:57 AM
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  1. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    This isn't just some fanboism crap. This is usability practice. People completely outside of the MS fanboy group like Brad Frost and Luke Wroblewski have mentioned this many a time in UX design conferences, blog posts, etc.

    It just so happens that Microsoft built a well designed UI with WP8 and now their loyal users want it to stay well designed. We don't want a me too OS to replace it.

    Anyways, WP's issues are not the UI, they are missing features and apps. The UI is pretty solid and has set the pattern that Apple and Google have followed suite with (kind of).
    As it was in WP 8, it was a failure. I'm typing this up with 8.1, so it isn't out of hate. I find the UI unused to be the UI that failed. I can only hope that making as more familiar UI helps adoption.
    tiziano27 likes this.
    02-01-2015 12:54 AM
  2. tiziano27's Avatar
    If that's the case, its fine. From what we've seen so far, that's not the case. Although right side is still better to be able to click the menu items. In general, I don't have an issue with the hamburger icon. I use it myself because it has become an industry norm.

    What I do have an issue with, is its placement and accessibility. With the 5-5.5" screen becoming the norm for smartphones, that one handed capability is ever more important because the top left corner is so hard to get.

    If the Hamburger menu doesn't contain options that are commonly used, It doesn't make much difference if It's positioned at the bottom or at the top.
    It's more common to use the other hand to reach other UI elements, like the first item on a list, a link, a command button in the body of the app.
    Last edited by tiziano27; 02-01-2015 at 07:55 AM.
    02-01-2015 07:44 AM
  3. tiziano27's Avatar
    This isn't just some fanboism crap. This is usability practice. People completely outside of the MS fanboy group like Brad Frost and Luke Wroblewski have mentioned this many a time in UX design conferences, blog posts, etc.

    It just so happens that Microsoft built a well designed UI with WP8 and now their loyal users want it to stay well designed. We don't want a me too OS to replace it.

    Anyways, WP's issues are not the UI, they are missing features and apps. The UI is pretty solid and has set the pattern that Apple and Google have followed suite with (kind of).

    People has to understand that single handed use is not the most important objective of the user experience. If some functions that aren't frequently used require both hands, It's ok.

    IMO, Metro is awful, It has so many flaws, every product that it "touched" failed. That's why MS decided to drop it. I'd go even further, providing an option to choose between tiles and a grid of icons.
    spaulagain likes this.
    02-01-2015 07:53 AM
  4. Brandon Tobias's Avatar
    The more I look at screenshots of Windows 10 for mobile the more I wonder why I don't just get an Android device, since the UI is pretty much heading in that direction anyway. Since Microsoft has put more time and energy into making sure their own apps are updated faster and more often on iOS and Android anyway, the only real differentiator between a Windows Phone and everyone else was the camera and UI. Since its inception, the Windows Phone UI was based on spacing and typography. Little-to-no chrome.

    With Windows 10 mobile all I've seen is a major step away from the UI elements that made Windows Phone so great. Look no further than the new email, messaging and photos app. As a longtime WP user this frustrates me. I was willing to constantly be left behind in apps and games because I liked the style of my OS. I'll wait until Windows Mobile 10 comes out to make a final judgement, but I can see myself leaving Windows Phone if they continue to choose not to differentiate themselves with the UI. I suppose the preview time is our platform to let Microsoft know that we don't like the direction they are taking WP with regards to the UI.

    Attachment 95101
    If the way an OS looked was the main purpose of you having WP well im sorry ... that's not what an OS is for
    The new apps are designed to have a consistent look between W10 on desktop and tablet as well as mobile so the UI had to change ...
    Some things we can change by feedback to MS but i like the direction MS is going honestly my main issue with windows phone was that the stat screen was limited and the OS as well as apps had little functionality compared to what android can do as well as BB10 ....
    I want functionality yes some elements of WP like pivot navigation should be retained but that's about it i like the new direction ...
    I also assume developers can still use pivot navigation in apps as well ...
    02-01-2015 09:28 AM
  5. Brandon Tobias's Avatar
    If after final build, I have to stretch my thumb all the way to that hamburger menu button at the top of the phone to access app settings; I'm leaving windows phone. It was the one thing I really appreciated - those three little dots at the lower right of most apps. Like you differentiation has won the hearts of most current and returning windows phone users. Failure to build on this advantage will only make the UI indistinguishable. Really Microsoft should be working on how to make core experiences better. E.g. Family Room - (can't attach photos to the messenger), Better Skype integration, Phone and Recent calls - (can we get a call history with duration and time of calls); Resuming/Loading - (how long will it take to remedy this?); the list goes on.
    Windows Phone has been playing catch-up for a while now albeit its furious pace to do so. Ultimately it will be Microsoft's ability to carve out an unexplored customer base and to improve its advantages in the OS that will make it succeed. Anything else would lead to it swimming in the shark invested waters that is Google.
    I have read over and over how people hate the new design language and will leave windows
    what you gonna leave it for IOS or android ? cuz ios you have to reach to the top of the screen to go back, android is the same to open menu's
    which i have no problem with ....
    before people judge the hamburger menu which is not a Android thing its used in other OS's, apps , web apps and web pages its a standard recognized navigational UI element... have yall stopped to think that maybe MS has enabled a swipe from the left edge of the device to open up the hamburger menu so you wont have to reach all the way up ???

    Again people don't get items based on looks alone functionality is key as if you are on WP for its UI only well im sorry for you
    these new features and improved functionality you are asking for will come with UI changes....
    tiziano27 likes this.
    02-01-2015 09:48 AM
  6. Brandon Tobias's Avatar
    While i understand some elements of WP were nice ....as an android user who went windows and back to android ... i see no problem
    i really don't care how the ui looks once i have functionality and MS are not idiots they will enable the swipe from the left to open the menu's
    but im waiting on the beta to come out and test to reserve judgment it but i do like the new UI's look

    People who buy big phones should not complain about the UI change ... i don't hear note ppl complaining you don't buy huge phones for one handed usability .. then apple and Google should change the UI based on screen size to make every one's life easier ....
    02-01-2015 10:09 AM
  7. spaulagain's Avatar
    If the Hamburger menu doesn't contain options that are commonly used, It doesn't make much difference if It's positioned at the bottom or at the top.
    It's more common to use the other hand to reach other UI elements, like the first item on a list, a link, a command button in the body of the app.
    But these are items that are used often. Items under the hamburger are usually key navigation items, etc.

    The Tapatalk app is a perfect example of an app that uses this technique. And its horrible for single hand use. If they made it where a swipe worked to pull the menu out, it would be fine. But they didn't.
    02-01-2015 12:05 PM
  8. spaulagain's Avatar
    As it was in WP 8, it was a failure. I'm typing this up with 8.1, so it isn't out of hate. I find the UI unused to be the UI that failed. I can only hope that making as more familiar UI helps adoption.
    Like I said, the UI is not what failed. Missing features and apps are what failed for WP. Everyone I know who has a WP, or sees mine thinks the UI is great. They love how fresh and simple it is.
    02-01-2015 12:08 PM
  9. spaulagain's Avatar
    People has to understand that single handed use is not the most important objective of the user experience. If some functions that aren't frequently used require both hands, It's ok.

    IMO, Metro is awful, It has so many flaws, every product that it "touched" failed. That's why MS decided to drop it. I'd go even further, providing an option to choose between tiles and a grid of icons.
    Metro did no fail, MS is not dropping it. They are changing it. They are evolving it. However, some of their changes are not better, they are worse, at least from what we've seen so far.

    WP failed because it was late, it was missing a ton of features, and missing lots of app. The UI is not what made it fail.

    Windows 8 failed because MS poorly executed the Metro language and destroyed the UX that current users were used to.

    And again, we aren't saying the whole Metro design language is perfect. We're just saying don't kill the good things about it.

    If you hate Metro so bad. Why are you even on a WP/Windows website?
    a5cent and Kram Sacul like this.
    02-01-2015 12:13 PM
  10. karan madhyani1's Avatar
    Windows phone is maturing
    With gain of functionality
    But with the loss of simplicity..

    For users like me
    I miss wp8's people hub
    Fb messenger built in the messaging app..also the photos app....xbox music+videos.

    But with wp8.1 there were ton of new features ..which attracted new users & people loved it..

    Now again with windows 10 mobile/windows 10 for phones there is going to b more core functions but at the loss of three button menu ..button moved from bottom to top..
    Might b more
    Might b less

    It is the way it is..a os matures with more function which the users have been craving..while the old ui is maintained..
    Sry fr bad english(u gt d point!)
    02-01-2015 12:32 PM
  11. manicottiK's Avatar
    I miss wp8's people hub; Fb messenger built in the messaging app..
    Some of what's been happening since 7.5 has been to make WP more like the other platforms SO THAT companies making apps can reinforce their brands and treat all platforms similarly. As such, high-end function integration (like seen in the older People and Photos hubs) is being de-emphasized both because the other platforms don't have it and because it denies Facebook, Twitter, and others a chance to promote their own brands with standard colors, fonts, logos, and user interfaces. Homogenization is what large businesses want.

    As an interesting exercise, has anyone compared the UIs of popular apps to see if any app sticks to the native styling of the platforms that they support or if the apps for iOS, Android, and WP all end up looking the same? Are there any examples where two of the platforms look one way and the third looks more "native?"
    02-01-2015 12:54 PM
  12. Squachy's Avatar
    Some of what's been happening since 7.5 has been to make WP more like the other platforms SO THAT companies making apps can reinforce their brands and treat all platforms similarly. As such, high-end function integration (like seen in the older People and Photos hubs) is being de-emphasized both because the other platforms don't have it and because it denies Facebook, Twitter, and others a chance to promote their own brands with standard colors, fonts, logos, and user interfaces. Homogenization is what large businesses want.

    As an interesting exercise, has anyone compared the UIs of popular apps to see if any app sticks to the native styling of the platforms that they support or if the apps for iOS, Android, and WP all end up looking the same? Are there any examples where two of the platforms look one way and the third looks more "native?"
    Of all the cross platform apps I've come across( messaging ones) they all seem to just look like whatever UI it started out with. Facebook messenger looks the same across all three ( cuz its the facebook UI they use), line messenger seems same, minus the themes and other line stuff that isn't available on WP. WhatsApp I think looks the same. The only things that they really change are the sprinkling of the OS UI here and there (colors, icons vs tiles, etc). If they made it UI specific it ends up being a confusing navigational mess since the apps are different. Like I said before the youtube app on my wiiu doesn't work the same way as the app on windows or even the website and it was frustrating to work my way around it.
    02-01-2015 03:18 PM
  13. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    Like I said, the UI is not what failed. Missing features and apps are what failed for WP. Everyone I know who has a WP, or sees mine thinks the UI is great. They love how fresh and simple it is.
    ​We have differing experiences.
    tiziano27 likes this.
    02-01-2015 09:44 PM
  14. iice cage's Avatar
    No I love metro it is modern. they talk about built in apps designs, example hub control is more modern looks than pivot.
    02-02-2015 04:30 AM
  15. tiziano27's Avatar
    But these are items that are used often. Items under the hamburger are usually key navigation items, etc.

    The Tapatalk app is a perfect example of an app that uses this technique. And its horrible for single hand use. If they made it where a swipe worked to pull the menu out, it would be fine. But they didn't.

    The hamburger menu and the ellipsis menu are the same concept, they shouldn't contain options frequently used. In most of the apps I have in my phone I rarely expand the ellipsis menu, so the impact of using an Hamburger menu at the top or an ellipsis menu at the bottom is insignificant.



    Metro did no fail, MS is not dropping it. They are changing it. They are evolving it. However, some of their changes are not better, they are worse, at least from what we've seen so far.

    WP failed because it was late, it was missing a ton of features, and missing lots of app. The UI is not what made it fail.

    Windows 8 failed because MS poorly executed the Metro language and destroyed the UX that current users were used to.

    And again, we aren't saying the whole Metro design language is perfect. We're just saying don't kill the good things about it.

    If you hate Metro so bad. Why are you even on a WP/Windows website?

    The success of a product is explained by multiple factors, one of them is obviously the user experience. WP and Windows 8 failed also because Metro is awful, nobody likes it.

    Changes in Windows 10 are so drastic that there is no much of Metro anymore, and that's great.

    I'm here because I like Windows. Windows is not equal to Metro. Metro is finally dead and I'm happy.
    Brandon Tobias likes this.
    02-02-2015 06:40 AM
  16. spaulagain's Avatar
    The hamburger menu and the ellipsis menu are the same concept, they shouldn't contain options frequently used. In most of the apps I have in my phone I rarely expand the ellipsis menu, so the impact of using an Hamburger menu at the top or an ellipsis menu at the bottom is insignificant.






    The success of a product is explained by multiple factors, one of them is obviously the user experience. WP and Windows 8 failed also because Metro is awful, nobody likes it.

    Changes in Windows 10 are so drastic that there is no much of Metro anymore, and that's great.

    I'm here because I like Windows. Windows is not equal to Metro. Metro is finally dead and I'm happy.
    Lol, making a general statement that everyone hates Metro is pretty ridiculous considering the company you are with here. And Metro is not dead, its evolving. If you think Metro is dead in Windows 10, then you have no idea what Metro is.

    The Hamburger icon and the ellipsis icon are similar in concept, but van be used simultaneously. The Tapatalk app does this well. The hamburger menu is for overall/primary navigation like forum switching, and going to different sections. Something that requires hitting the back button in most current WP apps. Then they uses the ellipsis menu for local functions like navigating the current thread you are viewing.

    I have no problem with the use of the Hamburger menu as long as you can swipe to access it like you can in the Facebook app.
    Last edited by spaulagain; 02-02-2015 at 08:06 AM.
    a5cent likes this.
    02-02-2015 07:50 AM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    I want functionality yes some elements of WP like pivot navigation should be retained but that's about it i like the new direction ...

    I also assume developers can still use pivot navigation in apps as well ...
    Provided the Office apps are in fact indicative of W10M's approach to UI design, you can't simultaneously like pivot navigation and the direction W10M is heading. Based on what was shown, it seems more likely that MS will heavily deemphasize the pivot/hub based approaches and supplant them with button based navigation (either in the top app bar or in the hamburger menu).

    I don't see how this can not lead to an even further breakdown in navigational consistency. Every app we launch will use and combine one or more pivots, top app bar buttons, inconsistently positioned and functioning hamburger buttons, side panels, hubs, bottom app bar buttons, and ellipsis menus into a navigational UX hodgepodge, forcing users to recalibrate their UI expectations in every app and potentially at every tap of the back button.

    While I agree with everyone else that a tap-addicted hamburger button at the top left is a really poor idea, I think that issue pales in comparison to the potential mess of inconsistent navigational concepts we could soon be facing. It's the main thing I'll be looking at when the preview is released.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-02-2015 at 08:14 AM.
    sahib lopez and manicottiK like this.
    02-02-2015 07:59 AM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    And Metro is not dead, its evolving. If you think Metro is dead in Windows 10, then you have no idea what Metro is.
    If the concepts of "content over chrome", "consistency between OS and apps", and "bold typography rather than buttons" are deemphasized or gone, then I'd say that is a good indicator that Metro is dead. One thing can't evolve into something else entirely and still be the same. It would still be Metro (or Modern UI) in name only. That is actually what it looked like to me, but we'll have to wait for the preview to be sure.

    Being "unapologetically digital rather than skeuomorphic", or "flat", is all well and good, but those superficial traits alone do not a design language make... at least IMHO.
    02-02-2015 08:10 AM
  19. spaulagain's Avatar
    If the concepts of "content over chrome", "consistency between OS and apps", and "bold typography rather than buttons" are deemphasized or gone, then I'd say that is a good indicator that Metro is dead. One thing can't evolve into something else entirely and still be the same. Ut would still be Metro (or Modern UI) in name only. That is actually what it looked like to me, but we'll have to wait for the preview to be sure.
    Being "unapologetically digital rather than skeuomorphic", or "flat", is all well and good, but those superficial traits alone do not a design language make... at least IMHO.
    The 3 things you mentioned above still exist in Windows 10 so far. The key to Metro was flat UI and typography. Everything else is just minor details that can change over time.

    App consistency in a totalitarian sense, just doesn't work. Some apps need to be designed differently because they have specific and different functionality. What needs to be consistent is when they share the same UI elements, those need to be same. Like the hold menu, the hamburger icon/menu, etc. And some apps like branded apps (Facebook) need to be consistent across platform rather than to the OS.
    02-02-2015 08:13 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    The 3 things you mentioned above still exist in Windows 10 so far. The key to Metro was flat UI and typography. Everything else is just minor details that can change over time.
    The flatness is purely superficial. It's also the easiest to recognize and copy (and thus has been). That really is only a minor detail. It's just the color of pixels. Nothing more.
    Providing conceptual consistency of the UX between apps and the OS is the opposite of a "minor detail". That is in large part directly attributable to how the APIs MS provides are designed. Once that is lost (by adopting an anything goes approach) you can't get it back.
    Anyway, I hope you are right that those three traits I mentioned are still alive and well in W10. We'll soon find out.
    02-02-2015 08:28 AM
  21. omagic82's Avatar
    For some that completely missed the purpose of my original post:

    I understand that the new Outlook app will have more functionality, but why should we sacrifice design for functionality. Why can't we have more features and continue to use the same general UI?

    Its not about complaining for the sake of complaining. We are super-early in the Windows 10 mobile process and I'd rather Microsoft get our feedback early than after the OS is finalized at a point where it is much more difficult to apply any changes.

    I'm more than willing to give the new UI a shot before giving my final verdict, however, the trend of moving away from UI design that has been praised for its simplicity and usability to a UI design more like that on the worst designed smartphone OS (Android) is disturbing.

    Right now, the loudest and most common feedback on Microsoft's UserVoice site regarding what we've seen of Windows 10 mobile has been the UI changes. Let's hope Microsoft sees the feedback and finds a way to merge new/more features, easier app creation and usability into a UI that sticks with the original Metro standards.
    a5cent and leo74 like this.
    02-02-2015 08:37 AM
  22. spaulagain's Avatar
    The flatness is purely superficial. It's also the easiest to recognize and copy (and thus has been). That really is only a minor detail. It's just the color of pixels. Nothing more.
    Providing conceptual consistency of the UX between apps and the OS is the opposite of a "minor detail". That is in large part directly attributable to how the APIs MS provides are designed. Once that is lost (by adopting an anything goes approach) you can't get it back.
    Anyway, I hope you are right that those three traits I mentioned are still alive and well in W10. We'll soon find out.
    That specific design pattern that was considered "standard" in WP when it launched was flawed from day one.it was attractive, and had it's benefits. But I knew it would never lest because it was too limiting.

    And the flat style that is Metro is distinguishable from Android and iOS flat UI. So it is representative of Metro IMO.
    02-02-2015 08:43 AM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    That specific design pattern that was considered "standard" in WP when it launched was flawed from day one.it was attractive, and had it's benefits. But I knew it would never lest because it was too limiting.

    But how was this limiting at all? App developers have long been able to create whatever they wanted. We've had side panels and hamburger buttons for ages, despite them not being explicitly represented as controls in WinPRT's UI library.

    It was just so simple to use the ready-made controls, that there was no reason to roll your own solutions if you didn't have a really good reason to do so. That's how we arrived at WP's (currently) rather consistent state... there was no totalitarian UI dictator involved. Standardization by simplicity so to speak...

    Only in one area, navigation, did MS not provide that simplicity. Hubs are the only codified navigational concept WinPRT supports, and they are suitable only for a minority of apps. For everything else, developers were constantly (re)inventing their own approach. IMHO that is one of multiple UI related issues W10 should be addressing, without having to go all the way back to the drawing board.
    02-02-2015 10:14 AM
  24. brucexli's Avatar
    exactly
    02-02-2015 11:58 AM
  25. spaulagain's Avatar
    But how was this limiting at all? App developers have long been able to create whatever they wanted. We've had side panels and hamburger buttons for ages, despite them not being explicitly represented as controls in WinPRT's UI library.

    It was just so simple to use the ready-made controls, that there was no reason to roll your own solutions if you didn't have a really good reason to do so. That's how we arrived at WP's (currently) rather consistent state... there was no totalitarian UI dictator involved. Standardization by simplicity so to speak...

    Only in one area, navigation, did MS not provide that simplicity. Hubs are the only codified navigational concept WinPRT supports, and they are suitable only for a minority of apps. For everything else, developers were constantly (re)inventing their own approach. IMHO that is one of multiple UI related issues W10 should be addressing, without having to go all the way back to the drawing board.
    I mean limiting from a UI perspective. You were stating that that style was part of what specifically defined Metro and that without it, Metro wasn't really Metro.

    My point was that from a developers perspective, it was a very limiting UI pattern. So yes, they already started using other patterns for navigation. Which is why I'm saying that Metro lives on even without that UI pattern.
    02-02-2015 03:18 PM
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