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  1. bijak_riyandi's Avatar
    None of this applies outside the US though and you guys need to bury the myth that only the US matters.
    People (or at least US Americans) forgot that China, India, and the whole South East Asia is more populated than the rest of the world combined

    And in this market, a Denim 930 (which is the current flagship) is largely available
    05-17-2015 05:04 PM
  2. Dadstar0410's Avatar
    Honestly, I've been delved into WP for so long that I wouldn't mind dropping from flagship (M8) to a mid-range/budget for my next device. For me, it's more about the experience/software, not the phone itself. Only issue for me would be storage, for I'm not willing to spend extra money for SD cards.
    marratj likes this.
    05-17-2015 05:10 PM
  3. Richard Culverhouse's Avatar
    Honestly, I've been delved into WP for so long that I wouldn't mind dropping from flagship (M8) to a mid-range/budget for my next device. For me, it's more about the experience/software, not the phone itself. Only issue for me would be storage, for I'm not willing to spend extra money for SD cards.
    I've already done it lol
    930 to 640XL. Loving it so far
    Dadstar0410 likes this.
    05-17-2015 05:39 PM
  4. theefman's Avatar
    None of this applies outside the US though and you guys need to bury the myth that only the US matters.


    I clearly included non US sales in my post so clearly I don't think "only the US matters" but even outside the US, flagships sell. But as has already been mentioned, years of focusing on low end devices hasn't moved the needle for WP so at some point the strategy has to change.

    Could be true, but overall market share is dropping, not just the US or any other hand-picked country.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    And this fact is completely ignored in these discussions.
    Laura Knotek and tgp like this.
    05-17-2015 06:31 PM
  5. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I clearly included non US sales in my post so clearly I don't think "only the US matters" but even outside the US, flagships sell. But as has already been mentioned, years of focusing on low end devices hasn't moved the needle for WP so at some point the strategy has to change.



    And this fact is completely ignored in these discussions.
    The only problem is that WP has sold flagships and they haven't moved the needle either. That renders the low-end argument a moot point. The fact is, iPhone and Android are the recognized "leaders" in the public eye and only a game changing feature is going to change this perception.
    Laura Knotek and boxa72 like this.
    05-17-2015 07:02 PM
  6. boxa72's Avatar
    The only problem is that WP has sold flagships and they haven't moved the needle either. That renders the low-end argument a moot point. The fact is, iPhone and Android are the recognized "leaders" in the public eye and only a game changing feature is going to change this perception.
    Like I said before, if they don't knock their next flagship right out of the freaking park even that might not save WP. It's now becoming a niche market for WP where only dedicated fans are buying them or someone who can't afford a flagship experience. You are dead wrong about it not being about apps. It's ALL about apps!!!
    05-17-2015 07:22 PM
  7. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Apps has nothing to do with it. Look at how many flagship WP devices sell compared to mid-range and low end ones and you might be surprised because more flagship models means less money for Microsoft.

    The other point here of course is that WP doesn't need Android like specs to run it so we don't need 3-4 new flagship models per year anyway.
    It does. The person who can afford an iPhone can afford to buy apps for it. That is why iOS is so profitable for developers. The person who buys a cheap phone is less likely to be able to afford to pay for apps for it.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 (2013) using Tapatalk
    boxa72, Luuthian and berny_533 like this.
    05-17-2015 08:49 PM
  8. Hesham Fouad's Avatar
    I bought a flag ship last year 1520 now I regret many design faults sold 920 which was one of the best Lumia phones except battery life
    Imagining if I went to note 3 how's much big different, windows still good in many things too but even free application not there all web site says download our app, icon for ios and one for Android, even if they make one for Windows it's the worst one
    05-17-2015 08:56 PM
  9. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    The only problem is that WP has sold flagships and they haven't moved the needle either. That renders the low-end argument a moot point. The fact is, iPhone and Android are the recognized "leaders" in the public eye and only a game changing feature is going to change this perception.
    The Lumia 925 + 920 combined have the third largest WP installed base
    Tom Snyder likes this.
    05-17-2015 10:35 PM
  10. boxa72's Avatar
    Like I said before, if they don't knock their next flagship right out of the freaking park even that might not save WP. It's now becoming a niche market for WP where only dedicated fans are buying them or someone who can't afford a flagship experience. You are dead wrong about it not being about apps. It's ALL about apps!!!

    Sent from my Galaxy S6 using Tapatalk
    05-17-2015 10:44 PM
  11. Luuthian's Avatar
    App ecosystems are incredibly important sources of revenue, if not the most important. It's not like Amazon gives their hardware away at cost because they're generous; they want you to have the lowest barrier of entry possible into their store.

    Apple is one of the few, magic companies that both makes insane revenue off hardware as well as maintaining an extremely profitable app store. Microsoft wants in on that process as much as possible for good reason but they still need to acquire customers with a similar mindset as iPhone owners... Aka. people willing to plunk solid cash down on apps.
    05-18-2015 02:23 AM
  12. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    The frustration level stems from a few factors, Microsoft inking "Exclusive Deals" with Carriers, an almost bi-polar attitude to what a flagship is, and the ability to see what Apple and Android are doing to sell handsets.

    Microsoft has now for well over a Year had the ability to sell direct to the consumer ( and it has started Unlocking phones for direct sale), but they have not forced this into the main stream.
    They really do need to take a page from Apple here and tell the Big carriers firstly "No more Exclusive" take our phones or opt out.
    Release Phones to the Carriers that want the phones, and in the Retail stores offer Unlocked/Unbranded Microsoft Lumia Phones that work on the Networks that do not carry Windows Phones.
    I for one would be happy to make the trip ( an hour and a half drive) to a Microsoft Store to buy a phone that works on my network, as Wind no longer has Windows Phone available to it's consumers.

    Handset makers would pick up the pace if they know their Phones will be available to a wider market out of the gate and not limited to just a single Carrier. AT&T, Verizon, Rogers and Bell and the rest of them will fall in line if they realize handsets are hitting their Network but they didn't sell the units.

    With a plan like that Microsoft could then focus on building a set number of Phones and not have to worry about an Icon like model for Joe Blow carrier and a different Icon for Marry Smith Carrier.

    With that mess out of the way, they could settle into a yearly release cycle and yearly Update cycle also.

    It would also stop the BS of "The 830....The Budget Flagship", sorry but the 2 terms do not belong together!!!!
    maj71303 and boxa72 like this.
    05-18-2015 04:09 AM
  13. mikepalma's Avatar
    Lack of flagship is pitiful. Can you say 2.7%?
    boxa72 likes this.
    05-18-2015 04:33 AM
  14. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    Re- iPhones, there isn't one iPhone. There are several iPhone models with different bands. Its just hidden from the consumer
    05-18-2015 06:54 AM
  15. tgp's Avatar
    They really do need to take a page from Apple here and tell the Big carriers firstly "No more Exclusive" take our phones or opt out.
    I do not think Microsoft has any choice in this matter. Even Google cannot do this. They came close with the Nexus 6, and got all 5 major US carriers to carry it, but it was released at staggered intervals by the carriers. To add to that, AT&T modified it a bit, and AT&T and Verizon put their logos on it.

    If Microsoft tells the carriers to take it like this "or else," the carriers will go with "or else." In fact, I bet it's happened already. Judging by how hard the carriers push WP, they don't care about it. Like I've said before, AT&T and Verizon probably tell Nokia/Microsoft/whoever that the only way they'll even bother is if it's exclusive.

    If you were a retailer, would you use up 1/3 of your retail space and work force to sell a product that adds 3% to your sales? If they did actually use 1/3 of their resources for WP, sales would certainly increase, but they probably still wouldn't make up enough to be worthwhile.

    Disclaimer: I don't know if any of the above is true, but at this point I have no other explanation. This is how it appears to me, based on how much I am familiar with marketing and retailing.
    05-18-2015 07:56 AM
  16. boxa72's Avatar

    Disclaimer: I don't know if any of the above is true, but at this point I have no other explanation. This is how it appears to me, based on how much I am familiar with marketing and retailing.
    Nah ur probably right.
    05-18-2015 08:35 AM
  17. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The Lumia 925 + 920 combined have the third largest WP installed base
    That's really not saying much. That's like claiming WP is the world's 3rd largest mobile OS. Sounds good, but it's not something to write home about.
    tgp likes this.
    05-18-2015 09:43 AM
  18. rhapdog's Avatar
    Just buy your standard Apple or Android flagship and enjoy pretty much everything a WP users would enjoy anyways... And then some, considering the app selections are far superior.
    Sorry, but buying an Apple or Android flagship would not allow anyone to enjoy pretty much everything a WP user enjoys. For me, those phones don't have integrated Skype and Facebook. While much of the functionality is there, it is the fluid experience that is Windows Phone that makes it for me. Working with Icons on a home screen is just too much like going back in time to use Windows 3.1 all over again. I'm so not there.

    That's the key. Persons who spend money on flagship devices also spend more money on apps.
    It does. The person who can afford an iPhone can afford to buy apps for it. That is why iOS is so profitable for developers. The person who buys a cheap phone is less likely to be able to afford to pay for apps for it.
    Exactly. This is why Microsoft needs to be able to break into the flagship market in a big way. How? Read on...
    The only problem is that WP has sold flagships and they haven't moved the needle either. That renders the low-end argument a moot point. The fact is, iPhone and Android are the recognized "leaders" in the public eye and only a game changing feature is going to change this perception.
    Exactly. Microsoft needs a game-changing feature in order to move that needle. I honestly believe the new W10 Flagships with continuum will be that game changing feature that no other flagship can match. If they add the fingerprint scanner, mobile payments compatible with Apple Pay (which is supposed to be in the works and coming soon), high end camera, and the other features to meet or exceed any other flagship available on the market, then continuum will be that feature that is a game-changer.

    I believe business users will jump on this first, for the convenience of using office on the big screen, keyboard, and mouse, from their phone while on a business trip or just whenever. I also believe a number of consumers will follow through soon after, like myself.

    Be frustrated with "No Flagship" all you want, but Microsoft knows they can't move the needle without the game changer. The game changer is coming with Windows 10. That's why they've been holding out. In the meantime, they've been working on steadily saturating the low-end market to keep the phone ecosystem out there and to keep it from fading from existence so that when W10 is released, it can be made relevant on phones.
    Last edited by rhapdog; 05-19-2015 at 07:36 AM.
    05-18-2015 10:22 AM
  19. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    @FatClue yes, but having 3% with flagships is a different ball game than 3 percent of low enders. As flagships do command a sizeable percentage of the WP demo considering that they rarely get released, obviously the low-enders are more desirable than flagships canard is wrong. There are simply more of the former and less of the latter
    colinkiama likes this.
    05-18-2015 10:28 AM
  20. fatclue_98's Avatar
    @FatClue yes, but having 3% with flagships is a different ball game than 3 percent of low enders. As flagships do command a sizeable percentage of the WP demo considering that they rarely get released, obviously the low-enders are more desirable than flagships canard is wrong. There are simply more of the former and less of the latter
    That's wishful thinking. It would be nice, but low to mid range is the vast majority of WP right now. Think about it, why spend flagship money for mid-range specs and a barren app store? That's not my assessment, but that's how the media portrays it to the general public. We know better, but we're a tiny voice in the crowd.
    Laura Knotek and mandong like this.
    05-18-2015 11:14 AM
  21. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    That's wishful thinking. It would be nice, but low to mid range is the vast majority of WP right now. Think about it, why spend flagship money for mid-range specs and a barren app store? That's not my assessment, but that's how the media portrays it to the general public. We know better, but we're a tiny voice in the crowd.
    Literally nothing you say contradicts me
    05-18-2015 11:41 AM
  22. Luuthian's Avatar
    Sory, but buying an Apple or Android flagship would not allow anyone to enjoy pretty much everything a WP user enjoys. For me, those phones don't have integrated Skype and Facebook. While much of the functionality is there, it is the fluid experience that is Windows Phone that makes it for me. Working with Icons on a home screen is just too much like going back in time to use Windows 3.1 all over again. I'm so not there.
    What you're basically arguing is that not buying a WP means other users miss out on the experience of the interface. That's fine and fair, but in terms of access to MS's services, which is all I was discussing, you're not missing out on any of MS's services by using devices from other manufacturers. Android and iOS users have just as much access to MS apps as WP users do, and in many cases their apps are actually better.

    Say you want about the icon system as well, but people love it. It makes sense to them and is easy to understand. I won't disagree that live tiles have a slick quality about them but people hate learning new things. Windows 8 is more than enough of a testament to that.

    And while you're right that Facebook may be more integrated into WP than it is on iOS or Android, that's been an incredibly poor selling point for most consumers. Facebook's partnership with HTC was a dud. No one is using Facebook's awkward Android overlay for the home screen. Facebook has tried multiple times to use their services as a selling point for phones and in all cases it's bombed spectacularly. WP hasn't taken off despite the deep integration and none of their experiments with Android have panned out. So either people actually want to avoid that level of integration or Facebook has yet to produce a formula consumers feel is compelling.

    You could easily walk into a store today, grab any iPhone/Android/Tablet, load up Outlook, Office, Smart Glass, Skype, Facebook, Remote Desktop, OneDrive, Office Lens, and Photosynth, (and, hey, why not Age of Empires and Spartan Assault as well) and never, ever look back at a WP again. Yet you're still entrenched in MS's service ecosystem. That's the magic and the goal of Windows as a service. No WP required to enjoy Microsoft as a company. And if MS fails to produce a decent flagship with some killer marketing, that's likely the portable future of Microsoft anyways. I'm fine with that quite honestly, even if it'll be a shame that so few people got to experience the WP interface.
    Harrie-S and Laura Knotek like this.
    05-18-2015 01:39 PM
  23. Greywolf1967's Avatar
    I do not think Microsoft has any choice in this matter. Even Google cannot do this. They came close with the Nexus 6, and got all 5 major US carriers to carry it, but it was released at staggered intervals by the carriers. To add to that, AT&T modified it a bit, and AT&T and Verizon put their logos on it.

    If Microsoft tells the carriers to take it like this "or else," the carriers will go with "or else." In fact, I bet it's happened already. Judging by how hard the carriers push WP, they don't care about it. Like I've said before, AT&T and Verizon probably tell Nokia/Microsoft/whoever that the only way they'll even bother is if it's exclusive.

    If you were a retailer, would you use up 1/3 of your retail space and work force to sell a product that adds 3% to your sales? If they did actually use 1/3 of their resources for WP, sales would certainly increase, but they probably still wouldn't make up enough to be worthwhile.

    Disclaimer: I don't know if any of the above is true, but at this point I have no other explanation. This is how it appears to me, based on how much I am familiar with marketing and retailing.
    It is a risk they need to take...... with 2 short term drawbacks......1)Yes no space in a Carrier retail store ( however that is nothing new), as they get so little push by the major carriers already. Here in Canada Bell, Fido, Rogers and so on have Windows Phone however the only TV spots you see are for iPhone or Samsung Galaxy. 2) If selling Unlocked Unbranded Phones in the Microsoft Store, there will be no new Low dollar Starters, they will have to sell to people like myself who buy outright. I've never taken a new phone on contract and never will. I am sadly not in the majority.

    However if new phones start hitting a Network, but the big company did not sell the device, they will notice this and add the phones in the effort to make their bucks. Their model is based off of Contract phones.
    05-18-2015 06:28 PM
  24. mikepalma's Avatar
    Let me frustrate you some more. No flagships since late 2013 stinks
    Poirots Progeny likes this.
    05-18-2015 07:03 PM
  25. somhom's Avatar
    They should care for Demand , Maybe they are loosing customers . It's not necessary to wait for win 10 ... Any way it will be Upgraded . Win 8.1 is stable version . Actually releasing New phone with New OS is more risky because There r always bugs in new OS .
    05-19-2015 01:46 AM
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