Frustrated with "No Flagship" complaints

Luuthian

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App ecosystems are incredibly important sources of revenue, if not the most important. It's not like Amazon gives their hardware away at cost because they're generous; they want you to have the lowest barrier of entry possible into their store.

Apple is one of the few, magic companies that both makes insane revenue off hardware as well as maintaining an extremely profitable app store. Microsoft wants in on that process as much as possible for good reason but they still need to acquire customers with a similar mindset as iPhone owners... Aka. people willing to plunk solid cash down on apps.
 

Greywolf1967

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The frustration level stems from a few factors, Microsoft inking "Exclusive Deals" with Carriers, an almost bi-polar attitude to what a flagship is, and the ability to see what Apple and Android are doing to sell handsets.

Microsoft has now for well over a Year had the ability to sell direct to the consumer ( and it has started Unlocking phones for direct sale), but they have not forced this into the main stream.
They really do need to take a page from Apple here and tell the Big carriers firstly "No more Exclusive" take our phones or opt out.
Release Phones to the Carriers that want the phones, and in the Retail stores offer Unlocked/Unbranded Microsoft Lumia Phones that work on the Networks that do not carry Windows Phones.
I for one would be happy to make the trip ( an hour and a half drive) to a Microsoft Store to buy a phone that works on my network, as Wind no longer has Windows Phone available to it's consumers.

Handset makers would pick up the pace if they know their Phones will be available to a wider market out of the gate and not limited to just a single Carrier. AT&T, Verizon, Rogers and Bell and the rest of them will fall in line if they realize handsets are hitting their Network but they didn't sell the units.

With a plan like that Microsoft could then focus on building a set number of Phones and not have to worry about an Icon like model for Joe Blow carrier and a different Icon for Marry Smith Carrier.

With that mess out of the way, they could settle into a yearly release cycle and yearly Update cycle also.

It would also stop the BS of "The 830....The Budget Flagship", sorry but the 2 terms do not belong together!!!!
 

tgp

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They really do need to take a page from Apple here and tell the Big carriers firstly "No more Exclusive" take our phones or opt out.

I do not think Microsoft has any choice in this matter. Even Google cannot do this. They came close with the Nexus 6, and got all 5 major US carriers to carry it, but it was released at staggered intervals by the carriers. To add to that, AT&T modified it a bit, and AT&T and Verizon put their logos on it.

If Microsoft tells the carriers to take it like this "or else," the carriers will go with "or else." In fact, I bet it's happened already. Judging by how hard the carriers push WP, they don't care about it. Like I've said before, AT&T and Verizon probably tell Nokia/Microsoft/whoever that the only way they'll even bother is if it's exclusive.

If you were a retailer, would you use up 1/3 of your retail space and work force to sell a product that adds 3% to your sales? If they did actually use 1/3 of their resources for WP, sales would certainly increase, but they probably still wouldn't make up enough to be worthwhile.

Disclaimer: I don't know if any of the above is true, but at this point I have no other explanation. This is how it appears to me, based on how much I am familiar with marketing and retailing.
 

fatclue_98

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Re: Fustrated with "No Flagship" complaints

The Lumia 925 + 920 combined have the third largest WP installed base

That's really not saying much. That's like claiming WP is the world's 3rd largest mobile OS. Sounds good, but it's not something to write home about.
 

rhapdog

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Re: Fustrated with "No Flagship" complaints

Just buy your standard Apple or Android flagship and enjoy pretty much everything a WP users would enjoy anyways... And then some, considering the app selections are far superior.
Sorry, but buying an Apple or Android flagship would not allow anyone to enjoy pretty much everything a WP user enjoys. For me, those phones don't have integrated Skype and Facebook. While much of the functionality is there, it is the fluid experience that is Windows Phone that makes it for me. Working with Icons on a home screen is just too much like going back in time to use Windows 3.1 all over again. I'm so not there.

That's the key. Persons who spend money on flagship devices also spend more money on apps.
It does. The person who can afford an iPhone can afford to buy apps for it. That is why iOS is so profitable for developers. The person who buys a cheap phone is less likely to be able to afford to pay for apps for it.

Exactly. This is why Microsoft needs to be able to break into the flagship market in a big way. How? Read on...
The only problem is that WP has sold flagships and they haven't moved the needle either. That renders the low-end argument a moot point. The fact is, iPhone and Android are the recognized "leaders" in the public eye and only a game changing feature is going to change this perception.
Exactly. Microsoft needs a game-changing feature in order to move that needle. I honestly believe the new W10 Flagships with continuum will be that game changing feature that no other flagship can match. If they add the fingerprint scanner, mobile payments compatible with Apple Pay (which is supposed to be in the works and coming soon), high end camera, and the other features to meet or exceed any other flagship available on the market, then continuum will be that feature that is a game-changer.

I believe business users will jump on this first, for the convenience of using office on the big screen, keyboard, and mouse, from their phone while on a business trip or just whenever. I also believe a number of consumers will follow through soon after, like myself.

Be frustrated with "No Flagship" all you want, but Microsoft knows they can't move the needle without the game changer. The game changer is coming with Windows 10. That's why they've been holding out. In the meantime, they've been working on steadily saturating the low-end market to keep the phone ecosystem out there and to keep it from fading from existence so that when W10 is released, it can be made relevant on phones.
 
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Ebuka Allison

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@FatClue yes, but having 3% with flagships is a different ball game than 3 percent of low enders. As flagships do command a sizeable percentage of the WP demo considering that they rarely get released, obviously the low-enders are more desirable than flagships canard is wrong. There are simply more of the former and less of the latter
 

fatclue_98

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@FatClue yes, but having 3% with flagships is a different ball game than 3 percent of low enders. As flagships do command a sizeable percentage of the WP demo considering that they rarely get released, obviously the low-enders are more desirable than flagships canard is wrong. There are simply more of the former and less of the latter

That's wishful thinking. It would be nice, but low to mid range is the vast majority of WP right now. Think about it, why spend flagship money for mid-range specs and a barren app store? That's not my assessment, but that's how the media portrays it to the general public. We know better, but we're a tiny voice in the crowd.
 

Ebuka Allison

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That's wishful thinking. It would be nice, but low to mid range is the vast majority of WP right now. Think about it, why spend flagship money for mid-range specs and a barren app store? That's not my assessment, but that's how the media portrays it to the general public. We know better, but we're a tiny voice in the crowd.
Literally nothing you say contradicts me
 

Luuthian

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Re: Fustrated with "No Flagship" complaints

Sory, but buying an Apple or Android flagship would not allow anyone to enjoy pretty much everything a WP user enjoys. For me, those phones don't have integrated Skype and Facebook. While much of the functionality is there, it is the fluid experience that is Windows Phone that makes it for me. Working with Icons on a home screen is just too much like going back in time to use Windows 3.1 all over again. I'm so not there.

What you're basically arguing is that not buying a WP means other users miss out on the experience of the interface. That's fine and fair, but in terms of access to MS's services, which is all I was discussing, you're not missing out on any of MS's services by using devices from other manufacturers. Android and iOS users have just as much access to MS apps as WP users do, and in many cases their apps are actually better.

Say you want about the icon system as well, but people love it. It makes sense to them and is easy to understand. I won't disagree that live tiles have a slick quality about them but people hate learning new things. Windows 8 is more than enough of a testament to that.

And while you're right that Facebook may be more integrated into WP than it is on iOS or Android, that's been an incredibly poor selling point for most consumers. Facebook's partnership with HTC was a dud. No one is using Facebook's awkward Android overlay for the home screen. Facebook has tried multiple times to use their services as a selling point for phones and in all cases it's bombed spectacularly. WP hasn't taken off despite the deep integration and none of their experiments with Android have panned out. So either people actually want to avoid that level of integration or Facebook has yet to produce a formula consumers feel is compelling.

You could easily walk into a store today, grab any iPhone/Android/Tablet, load up Outlook, Office, Smart Glass, Skype, Facebook, Remote Desktop, OneDrive, Office Lens, and Photosynth, (and, hey, why not Age of Empires and Spartan Assault as well) and never, ever look back at a WP again. Yet you're still entrenched in MS's service ecosystem. That's the magic and the goal of Windows as a service. No WP required to enjoy Microsoft as a company. And if MS fails to produce a decent flagship with some killer marketing, that's likely the portable future of Microsoft anyways. I'm fine with that quite honestly, even if it'll be a shame that so few people got to experience the WP interface.
 

Greywolf1967

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I do not think Microsoft has any choice in this matter. Even Google cannot do this. They came close with the Nexus 6, and got all 5 major US carriers to carry it, but it was released at staggered intervals by the carriers. To add to that, AT&T modified it a bit, and AT&T and Verizon put their logos on it.

If Microsoft tells the carriers to take it like this "or else," the carriers will go with "or else." In fact, I bet it's happened already. Judging by how hard the carriers push WP, they don't care about it. Like I've said before, AT&T and Verizon probably tell Nokia/Microsoft/whoever that the only way they'll even bother is if it's exclusive.

If you were a retailer, would you use up 1/3 of your retail space and work force to sell a product that adds 3% to your sales? If they did actually use 1/3 of their resources for WP, sales would certainly increase, but they probably still wouldn't make up enough to be worthwhile.

Disclaimer: I don't know if any of the above is true, but at this point I have no other explanation. This is how it appears to me, based on how much I am familiar with marketing and retailing.

It is a risk they need to take...... with 2 short term drawbacks......1)Yes no space in a Carrier retail store ( however that is nothing new), as they get so little push by the major carriers already. Here in Canada Bell, Fido, Rogers and so on have Windows Phone however the only TV spots you see are for iPhone or Samsung Galaxy. 2) If selling Unlocked Unbranded Phones in the Microsoft Store, there will be no new Low dollar Starters, they will have to sell to people like myself who buy outright. I've never taken a new phone on contract and never will. I am sadly not in the majority.

However if new phones start hitting a Network, but the big company did not sell the device, they will notice this and add the phones in the effort to make their bucks. Their model is based off of Contract phones.
 

somhom

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They should care for Demand , Maybe they are loosing customers . It's not necessary to wait for win 10 ... Any way it will be Upgraded . Win 8.1 is stable version . Actually releasing New phone with New OS is more risky because There r always bugs in new OS .
 

rhapdog

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What you're basically arguing is that not buying a WP means other users miss out on the experience of the interface. That's fine and fair, but in terms of access to MS's services, which is all I was discussing, you're not missing out on any of MS's services by using devices from other manufacturers. Android and iOS users have just as much access to MS apps as WP users do, and in many cases their apps are actually better.

That's partially true (though misleading and I will explain), but that's not what you said. What you said was the extremely misleading statement
Just buy your standard Apple or Android flagship and enjoy pretty much everything a WP users would enjoy anyways

That statement is not true, since most diehard WP users are in love with experience of the interface. That was the point I was trying to make.

What you have said in about MS apps being better on iOS and Android is a bit misleading because it is a case of "living in the past." We already know from Microsoft that W10 for phones will be getting all the new features first, and iOS and Android will be getting basically the port from Windows 10 from here on out. Also, the iOS and Android versions of software will not be capable of scaling to large screens like the W10 versions will when you hook your phone up to a larger monitor. Also, FULL features of Office for phones on Android and iOS will require an Office 365 subscription, as they will only have basic features built into the free version. However, W10 mobile will have the full Microsoft Office touch apps with full functionality and it will be free for W10 mobile.

With Windows 10 comes the end of Microsoft apps being better on Android and iOS.

Keep living in the past, because the experience on Windows 10 mobile will far surpass that of any iPhone or Android, period.
 

tgp

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What you have said in about MS apps being better on iOS and Android is a bit misleading because it is a case of "living in the past."

So when did this change?

With Windows 10 comes the end of Microsoft apps being better on Android and iOS.

And how, may I ask, do you know this?

Keep living in the past, because the experience on Windows 10 mobile will far surpass that of any iPhone or Android, period.

You're speculating. We've been hearing similar statements for a long time already. Most realists are to the point of "I'll believe it when I see it." It could happen, and probably will eventually. OTOH, it may not ever be fully realized. I don't know, and neither do you.

The thing is, as much as you hate anything not Microsoft, you must realize that Apple and Google are not resting on their laurels. We're probably at least a year away (and likely more) from seeing even the beginning of the potential utopia you're talking about here.

The apps we're talking about are Microsoft's. There are others, you know. Now, we know that Microsoft's apps, Office specifically, are much more capable than Google's and Apple's productivity apps. However, for the vast majority of users, using Office is like using a sledge hammer to drive in a thumbtack. Most of the functionality is not utilized.

Sure, you can make a long bullet point list of functions that Office has that iWorks and Google Docs do not have. But how many of them are used? You know what WP fans say when they are reminded of features on iOS and Android that WP lacks, "My WP does everything I need." Same difference.

I don't want to completely discredit what you're saying. I believe that the day may come when what you're speculating here will come to fruition. But IF it does arrive, it won't be tomorrow, or probably even next year. And by that time, who knows where Apple and Google will be?

I just think it's a bit presumptuous to be stating what you'd like to see as fact. It isn't, yet. Wait and see what happens, THEN go ahead and gloat all you want!
 

Pete

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And how, may I ask, do you know this?

Universal Apps.

In Windows Phone 7 & 8, some features (email/calendar/Office) were baked into the Operating system and the only way they'd be updated was through an OS update. As we know, none of these "baked in" apps have improved dramatically since the beginning of WP7. This is why Microsoft have created apps for other platforms have overtaken Windows Phone - they're not limited by the OS.

With Windows 10, a great deal more is app based, so core features can easily be updated without waiting for the OS development team to implement them.
 

tgp

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Universal Apps.

In Windows Phone 7 & 8, some features (email/calendar/Office) were baked into the Operating system and the only way they'd be updated was through an OS update. As we know, none of these "baked in" apps have improved dramatically since the beginning of WP7. This is why Microsoft have created apps for other platforms have overtaken Windows Phone - they're not limited by the OS.

With Windows 10, a great deal more is app based, so core features can easily be updated without waiting for the OS development team to implement them.

But how do you KNOW FOR SURE it's going to happen? You talk like it is going to happen, like the sun coming up in the morning. I don't know, you don't know, Microsoft doesn't know. It might, it probably will eventually, but on the flip side it may not. Like I said, I think you're jumping the gun.

From what I understand, we are not at the point where WinRT apps are as functional as Win32 apps. With W10P not running Win32 apps, it is still going to be limited. As time, and development, goes on, that will likely change. But Apple and Google are changing too. Time stands still for nobody, and nobody stands still.

Sure, you can compare W10P (as it's projected to be in a year or two) to iOS and Android as they are now, but where will they be when W10P arrives? Not where they are now, that's for sure! It's like everyone here is assuming that iOS and Android are done advancing.
 

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