09-10-2015 03:42 AM
48 12
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  1. tale 85's Avatar
    I wonder...most of us testing W10M are using inexpensive phones equipped with fairly low-powered S400 and S200 SOC's. Is the "resuming" screen as annoying on a Lumia 930 (800 series SOC)? I suspect most Android phones we are seeing for comparison are using 800-series SOC's, or at least 600.

    Also, I wonder what part installing apps on a micro SD card plays in the lengthy delay. Guess I should run an experiment.

    BTW, I when I compare the general responsiveness of my Lumia 640 with an S600-equipped Android device, I am not concerned. The Android device doesn't hesitate as much during the "resuming" phase, but it is not as smooth and quick in other launches and transitions. Overall, I think the responsiveness is very similar on like hardware.
    The Android phones I've played with don't show anything like "Resuming" they just hold the current screen until the transition is made. The lag time is about the same.

    And yes, the load speed does seem to have something to do with the SD. I'm wondering if a higher speed SD would help.
    Jazmac likes this.
    09-08-2015 06:20 AM
  2. hagjohn's Avatar
    If Microsoft doesn't stop people from posting stupid topics, I'm DONE!
    ArtificiallyYours likes this.
    09-08-2015 11:33 AM
  3. Krystianpants's Avatar
    It's definitely partly how the Application developer implements the resuming process. Readit does it really well. It actually shows the main readit screen, then it transitions to the subreddit and then finally to the post that you left off on. Still annoying to wait. I've had some apps and even my start menu sit on resuming for so long I had to close the task or reboot the unit.

    But if you can reproduce the resuming part on any application, in windows 8.1 or 10 I want you to try this. Disable any of the transparency and background effects on your start screen. Now try again. This speeds up the unit quite a bit. Windows 10 has an even harder hit based on your slection of transparency tiles and background images. It's likely using opengl to do this as there is no directX on these ARM devices. This alone hogs memory and puts a huge strain on your SOC. The start screen needs to take precedence over anything just in case you hit that start button. So it needs to be ready and rendered pretty quickly. The amount of tiles you have is likely also a big factor.

    If Microsoft could move over to the new intel cpu's and use directX 12 these units could be quite blazing fast.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    09-08-2015 01:49 PM
  4. amcluesent's Avatar
    Just speculating, maybe the memory compression feature in build 10532 of Windows 10 can be utilised in Window Mobile?
    09-08-2015 02:32 PM
  5. Mad Cabbie's Avatar
    If Microsoft doesn't stop people from posting stupid topics, I'm DONE!
    +1

    Another issue, correct me if I'm wrong, could be the fact that the previews are not device specific, thus issues potentially cropping up. I've not seen any 'resuming' issues on my 640xl, but then again, I'm fussy about clearing apps etc, using the hold back button and swiping them away. Hopefully with android apps on the horizon we can obtain clean master to dispose of junk.
    09-08-2015 03:23 PM
  6. Skamath's Avatar
    I've not seen any 'resuming' issues on my 640xl, but then again.
    It could also be possible that the hardware is heaps advanced compared to the older devices which started off with the win8 while the 640xl was with 8.1update2 and with future win10 in mind?

    As for the as the lag and resume screen it is there in all OSs the only difference is that it is covered by splash screen for entry and exit of the app.
    09-08-2015 03:30 PM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    It's likely using opengl to do this as there is no directX on these ARM devices. This alone hogs memory and puts a huge strain on your SOC.
    As stated earlier, I don't know what the reasons for the resuming delay are, but I do know it has nothing to do with OpenGL vs DirectX. Both are software libraries, and both are available on ARM devices. All WP devices since 8.0 support DirectX on ARM.

    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib.../dn632424.aspx

    See the section about DirectX
    09-08-2015 04:59 PM
  8. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    The thing they need to fix is the half-finished nature of the OS. That the Android and iOS compilers, basically the ONLY hope to fix the app problems and make the OS relevant, are delayed makes the launch already a failure. Few are going to want to switch from Android/iOS for W10M when it still has little hope in getting all of the desirable apps for another 6-12 months. Fluidity and percetion are far from what the masses want, when put next to content.

    This will FOREVER be the Achilles' Heel of this platform, unless they get those compilers out there and devs start flooding the Store with apps.
    09-08-2015 05:32 PM
  9. Krystianpants's Avatar
    As stated earlier, I don't know what the reasons for the resuming delay are, but I do know it has nothing to do with OpenGL vs DirectX. Both are software libraries, and both are available on ARM devices. All WP devices since 8.0 support DirectX on ARM.

    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib.../dn632424.aspx

    See the section about DirectX
    I'm talking about DirectX12 I have not seen a soc that shows support for it. And the difference is that directX11 has the cpu send single pipe commands to the gpu while 12 allows for command batches to be executed which would provide extreme performance enhancement with the start screens transparency effects and such. Turn them off and see how much faster your device is. I ran Windows 10 really well with basic start screen on my 520, when I turned on transparency and background image it got super slow.
    09-08-2015 05:50 PM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    I'm talking about DirectX12 I have not seen a soc that shows support for it. And the difference is that directX11 has the cpu send single pipe commands to the gpu while 12 allows for command batches to be executed which would provide extreme performance enhancement with the start screens transparency effects and such. Turn them off and see how much faster your device is. I ran Windows 10 really well with basic start screen on my 520, when I turned on transparency and background image it got super slow.
    I was primarily disputing that there is no DirectX on ARM devices.

    In regard to DirectX12, okay, but we're talking only about very modest amounts of extremely trivial UI transparency here. There is no way batching a few dozen draw calls in this scenario will result in any noticeable performance gains.

    I couldn't reproduce your observation on my L830, but if this bit of UI transparency is causing slowdowns on your L520, then something is either buggy or just unfinished, and DirectX12 is unlikely to fix either. More likely, what you really need is just a version of W10M that is better tailored to your L520's hardware. Hope you get that with the next build. ;-)
    09-08-2015 06:28 PM
  11. anon(5383410)'s Avatar
    Groove Music. I cant sync, skipping forward a song often results in skipping ahead two or three songs and sometimes it arbitrarily replaces songs on my playlists with different songs (wish I was making that up).

    I was just pondering this for the first time today because my contract was up at the end of August and I'm eligible for an upgrade. I want to wait for Talkman but if they can't sort out the music syncing I did look at the S6 Edge today just for the hell of it. First time I've even entertained switching since WP7. I'll wait and see but I must admit I'm getting a bit tired of waiting to see. The idea of switching is no longer out of the question.
    09-08-2015 06:50 PM
  12. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I was primarily disputing that there is no DirectX on ARM devices.

    In regard to DirectX12, okay, but we're talking only about very modest amounts of extremely trivial UI transparency here. There is no way batching a few dozen draw calls in this scenario will result in any noticeable performance gains.

    I couldn't reproduce your observation on my L830, but if this bit of UI transparency is causing slowdowns on your L520, then something is either buggy or just unfinished, and DirectX12 is unlikely to fix either. More likely, what you really need is just a version of W10M that is better tailored to your L520's hardware. Hope you get that with the next build. ;-)
    Even in the real world DirectX has shown increases in game performance by massive amounts on ati cards which have full support. Simply by sending batches to the gpu and letting multiple pipelines execute rather than having a single stream. This actually also frees up the cpu from having to have to send a dedicated stream of information and waiting for completion before new commands are sent. This allows the cpu scheduler to focus on other tasks. So even if something is simple it still frees up the cpu. And the 520 is not exactly top notch hardware so yes it is more likely to see the difference. My performance gains are more observant on Windows phone 8.1 on my lumia 830 as windows 10 is random when it comes to issues. Heck one time my lumia 830 just started vibrating none stop and i couldn't stop it had to cold boot. It's so random too. But you won't notice resuming much if you keep your start screen simple on 8.1. At least from my experience.
    09-08-2015 07:08 PM
  13. eric12341's Avatar
    I don't think it's the OS it's mostly the coding in the apps, for example some apps still aren't being released with fast resume support, that alone can cause the resuming screen or even a splash screen. Another reason might be that some devices could be running low on RAM causing apps to not resume from their resuming state as fast as they normally would when RAM is fresh. On my HTC ONE M8 with the latest preview installed I don't see any resuming unless I'm running one of those apps or if my phone hasn't been reset in days.
    09-08-2015 07:18 PM
  14. nukesheart1520's Avatar
    well in my 1520 in build 10512, i don't see ANY resuming. Tried it just now, opened lots of apps (pianophone, guitar, minirecorder, Halo SA, Messenger, MSN News) and tried shuffling through those..and nope, no resuming. On WP8.1 there's lots of resuming on my 1520 and 830.
    09-09-2015 01:45 AM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    Even in the real world DirectX has shown increases in game performance by massive amounts on ati cards which have full support.
    Somehow we're not communicating very well. I'm not saying draw call batching will never lead to notable performance gains. It can, particularly in complicated 3D scenes. I'm saying it can't do so in this particular scenario! How many draw calls do you think it takes to compose this trivial W10M UI with transparency? Very very few! Optimizing something that barely occurs isn't going to make a noticeable difference. That's my point.


    Hoping DirectX12 will make a noticeable difference in trivial transparency rendering is like hoping a two-handed sword will make it easier to butter your slice of bread. Sure, it works, but the sword is really only better than a bread knife when used for bigger tasks.


    Anyway, I agree with the rest of what you say. I hope that whatever is holding your 520 back is fixed in W10M.
    09-09-2015 05:35 AM
  16. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Somehow we're not communicating very well. I'm not saying draw call batching will never lead to notable performance gains. It can, particularly in complicated 3D scenes. I'm saying it can't do so in this particular scenario! How many draw calls do you think it takes to compose this trivial W10M UI with transparency? Very very few! Optimizing something that barely occurs isn't going to make a noticeable difference. That's my point.


    Hoping DirectX12 will make a noticeable difference in trivial transparency rendering is like hoping a two-handed sword will make it easier to butter your slice of bread. Sure, it works, but the sword is really only better than a bread knife when used for bigger tasks.


    Anyway, I agree with the rest of what you say. I hope that whatever is holding your 520 back is fixed in W10M.
    Ok sure, I think the discussion took two separate paths. Transparency requires multiple draws of a pixel, it will require more power than if it's off. We can agree on that. You need to scroll the start screen and live tiles update at the same time. You want to draw a smooth frame rate. Will it make a huge difference? Likely depends on the device. Windows phone 8.1 and 520 it makes a difference to turn it off. Even if it's just scrolling the start screen. But I gave it to my mom and have it bare bones no flare and it runs well with no resuming issues or anything of that kind.

    Now the point I made with DirectX 12 making a difference is sort of correct but also as you say not noticeable as the next chip to support DirectX 12 will be super powerful anyways. Even the snapdragon 810 with adreno 430 only supports directX 11.2. 12 could definitely make a difference in gaming on the mobile platform. My guess is that the awaited "surface" phone will be the first of its kind to support it.
    a5cent likes this.
    09-09-2015 07:15 AM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    Ok sure, I think the discussion took two separate paths. Transparency requires multiple draws of a pixel, it will require more power than if it's off.
    Okay, all good 😏
    Just to be sure, you do realize that shading the same pixel multiple times (due to transparency) has nothing at all to do with draw call batching, right?
    I'm pretty sure you do, but your use of the same terminology (multiple draws of a pixel) makes it seem as though you might think there is a relationship there, when there is none. You can get millions of transparently shaded pixels from a single draw call.
    09-09-2015 07:55 AM
  18. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Okay, all good
    Just to be sure, you do realize that shading the same pixel multiple times (due to transparency) has nothing at all to do with draw call batching, right?
    I'm pretty sure you do, but your use of the same terminology (multiple draws of a pixel) makes it seem as though you might think there is a relationship there, when there is none. You can get millions of transparently shaded pixels from a single draw call.
    Yah but the tiles result in tinting and wouldn't that require 2 draw calls?
    09-09-2015 08:54 AM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    Yah but the tiles result in tinting and wouldn't that require 2 draw calls?
    I'm not quite sure what you mean with "tinting". If you are referring to the pixels of a transparent yellow tile, which overlap a green background image, being rendered as blue, then no, that doesn't require any extra draw calls.

    Technically, there is no reason for the entire start screen (with many differently colored tiles) + background image to be rendered with more than two draw calls per frame, at most.

    This is because draw calls have nothing to do with pixels. They deal only with textures and 3D geometry.
    09-09-2015 09:23 AM
  20. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I'm not quite sure what you mean with "tinting". If you are referring to the pixels of a transparent yellow tile, which overlap a green background image, being rendered as blue, then no, that doesn't require any extra draw calls.

    Technically, there is no reason for the entire start screen (with many differently colored tiles) + background image to be rendered with more than two draw calls per frame, at most.

    This is because draw calls have nothing to do with pixels. They deal only with textures and 3D geometry.
    Yes tinting is applying colour, that's generally what I see it being called when working with sprites or textures. With microsofts pre windows 10 api spritebatch classes were used to create the transparency and this required 2 calls of draw. Tinting would require an update to the spritebatch. Even in unity tinting breaks batching. The term "pixel" is used loosely as no one would be calling a separate draw call for each pixel. C++/sfml you load a texture. You can apply animation sets etc. And each texture is treated uniquely. And more textures = more performance requirements. Now I don't know how MS does it. But if each tile is a unique texture which it has to be since developers submit their tiles for their own app, and they need to be rendered, it can become expensive. That's all i'm saying. It's likely they are optimizing it in some way. I'm not a hardcore programmer I know a bit here and there, but my own experience is that the start screen must cause some strain. Hence why it can lag on some of the lower end units when scrolling. The lag alone is showing that it is sucking up juice.
    09-09-2015 10:53 AM
  21. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ Okay, I see where you're coming from. Spritebatch is an XNA concept. No such thing in DirectX. Both XNA and Unity reside at a higher level than DirectX. They will obviously sacrifice some performance in the name of simplicity and OS independence. I'm an expert in neither, so I can't say how they do things in regard to draw call batching. You'll know more about that.

    Tiles will either be composited into a single texture and then blended over the background in the second draw call, or managed and manipulated individually by the GPU using GPU managed textures and vertex shaders. Neither approach requires more than two draw calls.
    09-09-2015 12:19 PM
  22. Paolo Ferrazza's Avatar
    Going back on topic "Windows Central editor-in-chief Daniel Rubino has heard that Microsoft is working on fixing "loading" issues for apps and performance in the latest builds for Windows 10 Mobile. Hopefully we will see the results of their work in the very near future."

    Guess MS trying to solve their part of the problem, the rest is up to app devs.
    09-09-2015 01:45 PM
  23. mariusmuntean's Avatar
    Hi guys,

    I've been messing around with W10M Previews since they came out and I'm losing confidence that my main problem will be resolved.

    My main problem is that apps keep resuming, WHY? What is the problem that they can't fix? Even their own apps keep resuming even if we just switch over for a second.

    Sure, this is old news since forever but this is a new OS, which means they should've got that fixed FIRST as part of a new OS.

    If they don't fix that before the release it's over for them. No one wants to see that screen when iOS and Android don't do that. It will make it seem slow.

    What else do they need to fix in order to even compete?
    Everything :)))
    09-10-2015 03:42 AM
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