10-07-2015 04:41 PM
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  1. Nabkawe5's Avatar
    Look, there has been two major re-orgs in the space of a year granted it doesn't excuse a few decisions but obviously it will slow down progress. The massive cut in the Windows Phone side was ill timed in my opinion and that will result in even slower progress not to mention features being cut + packaged into on going updates.

    A person can only code for so many hours, they aren't machines you know.
    I totally agree, most of the commenters read the points I mentioned (barely) but didn't read the conclusion if you have so much of your programming staff thrown at hundreds of apps and services, it would be logical for the WM10 to be either pushed back or launch lacking the features hyped at the announcement, and my advice about that is dead solid buy the new flagships 5 months after launch, they would've gotten their first update by then and would be sold for a much reasonable price than what Microsoft will try to pry first..
    09-10-2015 10:06 PM
  2. TechFreak1's Avatar
    I totally agree, most of the commenters read the points I mentioned (barely) but didn't read the conclusion if you have so much of your programming staff thrown at hundreds of apps and services, it would be logical for the WM10 to be either pushed back or launch lacking the features hyped at the announcement, and my advice about that is dead solid buy the new flagships 5 months after launch, they would've gotten their first update by then and would be sold for a much reasonable price than what Microsoft will try to pry first..
    The price will go down as with anything and in the case iphones the price drop also exists but it's much slower. Whether or not people buy it at launch that is entirely upto them. It would be illogical to be WM10 pushed back anymore as they would lose the Christmas period completely, don't forget Redstone is due to come out early next year for the desktop O/S.

    Never the less there is no point speculating as there is almost under a month to go.
    09-10-2015 11:44 PM
  3. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Microsoft has its best engineers working on the cloud, playing catch up with Amazon. In the Windows team the priority is the first update for the desktop variant. They rushed an unfinished product to market and they have to fix it. Windows Mobile can wait a couple of months.
    09-11-2015 02:04 AM
  4. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    So what is the benefit of this so impressive effort?
    I think the new iPad pro did run than office quite smooth even on this "super exotic" ios?
    I really think it was even better than any universal app that Microsoft has shown yet.
    But, maybe we just have to wait?... one year, two years, another new restart?
    Again you're mixing things. Office products vs OS. Make up your mind. Are talking OS or Office?

    Office has been out on Apple products for some time now as well as Android. They only updated it to work with split screen. You do realise that people have to buy Office on iOS through a subscription? It will be free on W10M.

    You seem to be missing the point completely. MS is a software company first. They sell software to people and companies. It's how they make their money. They have different groups working on different products. You don't seem to understand this concept.

    The Office programmers are not the OS programmers in other words. There's probably separate groups working on iOS and Android versions as well. Office on W10M will be a universal app. That's completely different than anything on iOS or Android.

    You're lacking understanding of how things work in large corporations is showing and your lack of experience in large projects. No idea what age you are but you seem to lack these things and the perception that goes with it. You're not alone in this of course. There's lots of moaning going on in the forums most of it based on lack of understanding of the simplest aspects of programming and how work gets done.

    The fact that you're comparing the update to Office on iOS to W10M which hasn't released yet is a clear indication that you're not thinking clearly.

    Don't talk about Office on W8.1. The issue here is that Office is integrated into the OS. Upgrading it was always going to be difficult. So let's wait and see.

    When will we see? When W10M is released. Office 2016 is coming out. That's the universal app for W10. When it's all said and done then you can have a whinge if you don't like it. At lest then you'll have a complete picture.
    neo158 and Laura Knotek like this.
    09-11-2015 02:44 AM
  5. Tien-Lin Chang's Avatar
    TBH I don't care the universal app or the same W10 across all devices - those might be cool to the company and programmers but not to an end customer like me. Can we run .exe on W10M? NO? Then tell me what's the different between "W10 for all" and "WP8.1 + Win8 sildload WP8.1 apps" as a windows phone owner? MSFT choose a very hard way to provide solution, however I don't see a big UX change for mobile side. It's nice to have the same bank app on your phone and on your laptop but it won't kill you to use app on the phone and webpage service on laptop.

    The android go through a total redesign to touch-UI when they see iOS, yet they only about one year late on the market. I don't care how hard the task MSFT are trying to achieve now, I believe they're not decided to do so just from last year. We are customers and we want to see something being delivered soon, simple as that. If MSFT can only get low-end SoC from Qcom and not trying to get MTK onboard from day one, THEY ARE NOT TRYING EVERYTHING TO MAKE IT WORK. The rest is just excuses.
    Ian_Superfly and Bloobed like this.
    09-11-2015 03:32 AM
  6. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    TBH I don't care the universal app or the same W10 across all devices - those might be cool to the company and programmers but not to an end customer like me. Can we run .exe on W10M? NO? Then tell me what's the different between "W10 for all" and "WP8.1 + Win8 sildload WP8.1 apps" as a windows phone owner? MSFT choose a very hard way to provide solution, however I don't see a big UX change for mobile side. It's nice to have the same bank app on your phone and on your laptop but it won't kill you to use app on the phone and webpage service on laptop.

    The android go through a total redesign to touch-UI when they see iOS, yet they only about one year late on the market. I don't care how hard the task MSFT are trying to achieve now, I believe they're not decided to do so just from last year. We are customers and we want to see something being delivered soon, simple as that. If MSFT can only get low-end SoC from Qcom and not trying to get MTK onboard from day one, THEY ARE NOT TRYING EVERYTHING TO MAKE IT WORK. The rest is just excuses.
    Then go to Android and hang out there for a while because you seem to know what you're talking about. OS development is easy in your eyes and Android and Apple are doing far better jobs so why stick with MS?

    I don't get people like you or others who just don't get it. OS development is difficult and what MS is doing is not easy.

    There is a huge change in W10M compared to WP8 or 8.1. Just because you're only seeing surface things doesn't mean it's 'no different'. Also Android and iOS are completely different. How many times does this need to be said. W10M is not like Android and iOS. It's the addition of a mobile platform to W10 OS. I don't understand why people don't get this. It's not simply an upgrade to WP8.1. You cannot compare this to iOS or Android development. Also as for your comment about .exe files I would leave that idea open for the moment. Just a thought.

    MS knows exactly what it's doing and what it's trying to achieve. Unfortunately they're not great at telling people and even when they open up (the technical preview) people are still confused because they don't understand the programming process involved.

    If you're not a 'happy customer' take your custom elsewhere. Either you wait for W10M to be released then you can have a good whine if you don't like it or leave. Lots of options.

    I don't get this shouting and screaming and impatience. I still believe that the technical preview was a mistaken idea. They were better off without all this moaning. I really am confused by all this whining and complaining.
    09-11-2015 04:45 AM
  7. Visa Declined's Avatar
    I still believe that the technical preview was a mistaken idea.
    You're not the only one. They should have kept the details of progression to themselves, and told everyone it will be done when it's done.
    N_LaRUE likes this.
    09-11-2015 05:23 AM
  8. sheldon cohn's Avatar
    Upper management always acts like their subordinates don't have enough work, and basically always finding new projects for them. Mean while the staff has so much work to do that they are actually over loaded. I have worked in IT for years, and that is how it's been for a while now. I have more then one
    Windows phone, the Windows 10 phone is my test phone, where I know I have to be patient. Gabe doesn't want to send out a build that everyone finds fault and they get a lot of bad feedback. They get enough of it now.
    09-11-2015 07:48 AM
  9. anon(5383410)'s Avatar
    The amount of hyperbole on this forum has reached an all-time high.
    09-11-2015 07:51 AM
  10. Ian_Superfly's Avatar
    You're not the only one. They should have kept the details of progression to themselves, and told everyone it will be done when it's done.
    But 18 months with no new interesting hardware, no new apps (but removing old ones) and full focus on iOS/Android might have been even worse if it was not even a beta for people to lay some hope upon?
    slivy58 likes this.
    09-11-2015 08:17 AM
  11. Ian_Superfly's Avatar
    Again you're mixing things. Office products vs OS. Make up your mind. Are talking OS or Office?

    Office has been out on Apple products for some time now as well as Android. They only updated it to work with split screen. You do realise that people have to buy Office on iOS through a subscription? It will be free on W10M.

    You seem to be missing the point completely. MS is a software company first. They sell software to people and companies. It's how they make their money. They have different groups working on different products. You don't seem to understand this concept.

    The Office programmers are not the OS programmers in other words. There's probably separate groups working on iOS and Android versions as well. Office on W10M will be a universal app. That's completely different than anything on iOS or Android.

    You're lacking understanding of how things work in large corporations is showing and your lack of experience in large projects. No idea what age you are but you seem to lack these things and the perception that goes with it. You're not alone in this of course. There's lots of moaning going on in the forums most of it based on lack of understanding of the simplest aspects of programming and how work gets done.

    The fact that you're comparing the update to Office on iOS to W10M which hasn't released yet is a clear indication that you're not thinking clearly.

    Don't talk about Office on W8.1. The issue here is that Office is integrated into the OS. Upgrading it was always going to be difficult. So let's wait and see.

    When will we see? When W10M is released. Office 2016 is coming out. That's the universal app for W10. When it's all said and done then you can have a whinge if you don't like it. At lest then you'll have a complete picture.
    What good is it to be in the garage rebuilding the engine (again and again) while the competition is out on the race track (and then put many of your mechanics to wash and polish the competition…) earning fame and money?

    Btw, thanks for the flattering regarding my age!
    slivy58 likes this.
    09-11-2015 08:21 AM
  12. Ed Boland's Avatar
    All I've got to say is in regards to Microsoft at the Apple event. I believe every minute Microsoft had that stage was a WIN for us and our platform, and couldn't have been better timing. Every Apple fan that saw the event either in person or online, had a small seed planted in the back of their head that Microsoft was still alive and well, and that they're still the reigning king of productivity. Apple even said it themselves; "who knows better about productivity than Microsoft" (They didn't mention their own "Pages, Keynote, or Numbers" apps!) So even the people that buy the next iPhone/iPad or even android know, that to get that level of productivity, you have to go with Microsoft... Because Apple told them so. Microsoft can only win here.

    So later this fall, when Windows 10 mobile is released, along with all the new phones, PCs, the Surface 4 Pro, and the new Office, more and more people are going to recognize Win10 mobile as a viable platform. That seed is going to start growing. Microsoft has been training the millions of Windows 10 PC users to recognize the Windows 10 mobile start screen every time they click on their Start menu on their PC. It's a subliminal, and I think brilliant way to prepare future Windows 10 mobile users for their next phone purchase decision. Current iPhone/android users that also use a PC with Windows 10 are going to start wanting the same "Start" experience on their phones.

    I may be in the minority here, but I actually think Windows 10 mobile might have a chance this time around. My only hope is that they market and advertise it the right way. Maybe something like "take your Start menu with you" or something like that. Bring back the "Start" campaign and the Rolling Stones "Start me up" song as well. Have an ad where someone sits down at a PC and clicks on the Start button and they zoom in on the Start menu, then zoom back out and see that the same Start menu is now on a phone in the user's hand. Then the same user takes the phone to a different room and it connects to a larger display with a keyboard and mouse ala "Continuum" and the seamless workflow "continues" from there! Maybe have it zoom back out and realize the Start menu is now on the Xbox One...

    I might be squandering off topic here and starting to daydream, but my contribution to the discussion in this thread is yes, Microsoft has teams dedicated to apps and services on other platforms. So what? Rest assured they also have teams working on the next update for Windows 10 for PCs, as well as people working on Windows 10 mobile. They also have teams working on Hololens, Office, IOT devices, Azure Cloud services, Enterprise business solutions, and countless other technologies and innovations that none of us have even seen yet! Microsoft still employs thousands of people. When Windows 10 Mobile is ready, they'll release it, support it, and I have no doubt that we'll have their full attention.
    Pete, a5cent, nmercy and 3 others like this.
    09-11-2015 08:32 AM
  13. Ivan05il's Avatar
    Insides of the OS are irrelevant for the end user. They do not care if it is a mobile platform of an OS or an OS itself. If they cannot see anything interesting on the surface then the author of the mobile platform failed, no matter how complex and intricate the system is inside. The goal is to sell it, not to satisfy its authors' egos.
    09-11-2015 08:33 AM
  14. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    What good is it to be in the garage rebuilding the engine (again and again) while the competition is out on the race track (and then put many of your mechanics to wash and polish the competition…) earning fame and money?

    Btw, thanks for the flattering regarding my age!
    You appear to not get it. MS is not competing against iOS and Android in that way. They're doing their own thing. Therefore this whole talk of wars, races and other things means nothing.

    What's the hurry? Do you see Android OS moving into PC any time soon? (let's not talk about the joke that is a Chromebook that's not Android) Apple has been a PC maker for years and hasn't got anywhere near the numbers Windows does and it won't because it's too expensive and lacks software support from a lot of companies still.

    When you step back and stop reacting maybe you'll get it. Maybe everyone will get it but I doubt it.

    What MS is doing is something that is not being done by anyone else. They're first. When you step back and look at it you can start to realise what's involved. Stop thinking about now and think a little ahead. Think about what will be rather than what you think it's going to be. Stop looking at iOS and Android as examples because they're not the benchmark. There isn't one.

    YW on the age thing. I'm not an old guy myself but probably older than most on here. Many years using computers and technology.
    neo158 and LeFreak like this.
    09-11-2015 08:39 AM
  15. Ian_Superfly's Avatar
    Have an ad where someone sits down at a PC and clicks on the Start button and they zoom in on the Start menu, then zoom back out and see that the same Start menu is now on a phone in the user's hand. Then the same user takes the phone to a different room and it connects to a larger display with a keyboard and mouse ala "Continuum" and the seamless workflow "continues" from there! Maybe have it zoom back out and realize the Start menu is now on the Xbox One...
    That is a beautiful idea!
    I do not expect MS marketing to be that creative but I love the idea!
    Ed Boland likes this.
    09-11-2015 08:47 AM
  16. Ian_Superfly's Avatar

    What's the hurry? Do you see Android OS moving into PC any time soon?.
    Do you see Microsoft being able to sell a phone soon? ...
    slivy58 likes this.
    09-11-2015 08:48 AM
  17. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Do you see Microsoft being able to sell a phone soon? ...
    Yeah I do.They're selling phones everyday probably, just not quantities like Android and iPhone.
    neo158 likes this.
    09-11-2015 08:54 AM
  18. spazinvader's Avatar
    N_LaRUE

    I agree that OS development is difficult and too an OS that is to be used on all form factors is lot more difficult. Even for some one like Microsoft. But, you do understand that it is a long term strategy and not a consumer focus right? Right now, Mobile is totally into consumer focus. And the more focus of a consumer likes on the apps they use. An update, usually means that either there will be more features or there will be added stability. Windows 10 mobile took out key pieces of apps such as music player, video player, etc out so that they could be updated faster. Guess what? The taken out apps are missing lots of features that are available in their previous gen or there is a reduced stability. They pulled these things out from core OS so that they can be updated faster and yet the updates are not bringing any new features. Being an universal app seems to only hinder adding new features..

    If the apps for other platforms are updated frequently, adding more features as well, what is the problem in the Windows apps getting updated? This would only suggest that either the Microsoft's own app developers for their mobile platform are not efficient or the platform is not good enough for them to add features. Both are actually worse.

    And please do not argue that Windows 10 mobile is not yet released and so we can forgive the slowness in Microsoft's app updates with features. We are looking at the OS which will be released in a month or two. So all APIs and other facilities from the OS would be complete and only bug fixes are supposed to happen. With this feature set, if the app teams cannot make the app feature parity with the counterparts, when can we expect a feature parity? By threshold? At that time, apps in other platforms would have lot more features.
    09-11-2015 08:54 AM
  19. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    N_LaRUE

    I agree that OS development is difficult and too an OS that is to be used on all form factors is lot more difficult. Even for some one like Microsoft. But, you do understand that it is a long term strategy and not a consumer focus right? Right now, Mobile is totally into consumer focus. And the more focus of a consumer likes on the apps they use. An update, usually means that either there will be more features or there will be added stability. Windows 10 mobile took out key pieces of apps such as music player, video player, etc out so that they could be updated faster. Guess what? The taken out apps are missing lots of features that are available in their previous gen or there is a reduced stability. They pulled these things out from core OS so that they can be updated faster and yet the updates are not bringing any new features. Being an universal app seems to only hinder adding new features..

    If the apps for other platforms are updated frequently, adding more features as well, what is the problem in the Windows apps getting updated? This would only suggest that either the Microsoft's own app developers for their mobile platform are not efficient or the platform is not good enough for them to add features. Both are actually worse.

    And please do not argue that Windows 10 mobile is not yet released and so we can forgive the slowness in Microsoft's app updates with features. We are looking at the OS which will be released in a month or two. So all APIs and other facilities from the OS would be complete and only bug fixes are supposed to happen. With this feature set, if the app teams cannot make the app feature parity with the counterparts, when can we expect a feature parity? By threshold? At that time, apps in other platforms would have lot more features.
    I have to ask. Have you seen the APIs for yourself or are you just going by what the apps on W10M has?
    Noel Danso, neo158 and a5cent like this.
    09-11-2015 09:25 AM
  20. Ivan05il's Avatar
    If something should be released in a month or two, they should now be in a phase when they are only testing and fixing bugs. OEMs, all two of them, need to receive the RTM sooner, so they can keep their deadlines. If MS is still adding things to the OS and they want to keep the deadline we can expect a very bumpy ride.
    09-11-2015 09:51 AM
  21. jdballard's Avatar
    I don't get people like you or others who just don't get it. OS development is difficult and what MS is doing is not easy.
    Amen! Preach! I am amazed that they have rebuilt three times, from WM 6 to 7, 7 to 8 and now 8 to 10, with 10 being just Windows 10, not just a mobile OS and kept the functionality they have. I understand why they can't keep up functionally when they're rewriting the core.

    I've been in software for 19 years, working with customizable, pre-built software (MS CRM, Salesforce) as well as some stand-alone apps - nothing remotely as complex as an OS. Even the simplest of apps takes work beyond what most people think. Sometimes the things that seem hard are easy. Sometimes the things that seem easy are hard. I get frustrated as a consumer, but I also realize the scope of work they have undertaken is enormous. The fact they've done what they've done is impressive. I do hope that once they're fully on Windows 10 and not having to rewrite the OS they'll keep feature parity and even maybe push things forward a bit.

    I don't get this shouting and screaming and impatience. I still believe that the technical preview was a mistaken idea. They were better off without all this moaning. I really am confused by all this whining and complaining.
    The whining & complaining is annoying, but I bet the feedback and telemetry is extremely helpful.
    N_LaRUE, neo158, a5cent and 1 others like this.
    09-11-2015 11:15 AM
  22. jdballard's Avatar
    What good is it to be in the garage rebuilding the engine (again and again) while the competition is out on the race track (and then put many of your mechanics to wash and polish the competition…) earning fame and money?
    It's paying off the old technical debt and investing in the future with the maintainability of a single, shared codebase instead of separate, duplicated code. Thinking about Windows 10 being on your desktop, tablet and phone, running the same code is pretty amazing from a technical perspective. Using your analogy, this is an ultra-marathon, not a sprint.

    They may not succeed, but they're trying to do it right so they don't have to rewrite things yet again.
    N_LaRUE and neo158 like this.
    09-11-2015 11:22 AM
  23. Ian_Superfly's Avatar
    It's paying off the old technical debt and investing in the future with the maintainability of a single, shared codebase instead of separate, duplicated code....
    apparently it is not enough "duplicate code" to be able to release it yet. And, not even the "universal apps" are the same any more.
    Might very well be a lot of effort for MS but what the user will get/experience is just a less optimized/less userfriendly appearance...?
    slivy58 likes this.
    09-11-2015 11:35 AM
  24. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Amen! Preach! I am amazed that they have rebuilt three times, from WM 6 to 7, 7 to 8 and now 8 to 10, with 10 being just Windows 10, not just a mobile OS and kept the functionality they have. I understand why they can't keep up functionally when they're rewriting the core.

    I've been in software for 19 years, working with customizable, pre-built software (MS CRM, Salesforce) as well as some stand-alone apps - nothing remotely as complex as an OS. Even the simplest of apps takes work beyond what most people think. Sometimes the things that seem hard are easy. Sometimes the things that seem easy are hard. I get frustrated as a consumer, but I also realize the scope of work they have undertaken is enormous. The fact they've done what they've done is impressive. I do hope that once they're fully on Windows 10 and not having to rewrite the OS they'll keep feature parity and even maybe push things forward a bit.



    The whining & complaining is annoying, but I bet the feedback and telemetry is extremely helpful.
    Thanks for being a voice of reason :) I'm not software developer but I work on very large engineering projects and I have some knowledge of what goes into developing software, including an OS. I have an IT certification and many years of curiosity with personal computers.

    I understand what required on a large project like this and I have an understanding of how programming happens on projects like this due to knowing people in the field. People here are going by what the see in the technical preview but speak only from that rather than and understanding of the whole picture. Projects like this have a linear timeline with milestones but are not done in a linear manner. I don't think many people understand that concept.

    I do honestly hope your right about the feedback.
    a5cent likes this.
    09-11-2015 11:39 AM
  25. Nabkawe5's Avatar
    So to sum up few points that people rather seem to think it's news or is relevant to this post

    •Every company is a business, almost every big company has countless side projects and products to develop and maintain besides their OS/main product line, somehow users figured that out when they paid for a Microsoft product instead of having it for free.

    •We're not responsible for Microsoft financial success, it's not our job to care about their fiscal year, it's actually their job to impress us so we could contribute to their ecosystem and buy their products, we in turn help them by saying this product is good and we recommend it to friends and family.

    • No major decision to update Windows Phone came out of the good hearts of the people at Microsoft, people who shouted I feel like Microsoft is doing nothing are the reason behind Microsoft Insider program back when 8.1 took ages to happen.

    •Building software is hard, that's not news for the biggest software company in the world, the argument is that Microsoft isn't giving WM10 any priority and the lack of staffing is obvious, specially as we go into the dangerous territory of the holidays where even patches for the OS would take longer to happen.

    •The big picture MS is after have been long preached, "Soon & Will TM" have been well played out, most users are familiar of Microsoft strategy only not in a good light as the constant reboots are killing the idea and eventually the real benefactors are3 Microsoft employees as they'll code less in the future.

    •The article is telling people not to expect a timely update or a feature rich OS anytime soon both are valid arguments that do make total sense and if anything we just lowered the bar for Microsoft to surprise us.

    • As you're free to have your opinions, fighting those who complain about Microsoft won't get you anywhere, you don't have a leg to stand on to defend Microsoft as most of what you preached have been used up so many times, in fact I would take a million complaining user over a single user saying that people need to shut up, as at least those complaining millions will force MS into action
    Last edited by Nabkawe5; 09-11-2015 at 12:38 PM.
    Tien-Lin Chang and xandros9 like this.
    09-11-2015 12:09 PM
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