10-07-2015 04:41 PM
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  1. Spectrum90's Avatar
    It's paying off the old technical debt and investing in the future with the maintainability of a single, shared codebase instead of separate, duplicated code. Thinking about Windows 10 being on your desktop, tablet and phone, running the same code is pretty amazing from a technical perspective. Using your analogy, this is an ultra-marathon, not a sprint.

    They may not succeed, but they're trying to do it right so they don't have to rewrite things yet again.
    What's the benefit of merging a simple phone OS with an overly complex desktop OS with a 30 year old source code? Why do you think Microsoft is so slow in developing Windows?
    Besides, WP is having performance problems since this path started with WP 8.0.
    09-11-2015 01:36 PM
  2. Rising Mos's Avatar
    What's the benefit of merging a simple phone OS with an overly complex desktop OS with a 30 year old source code? Why do you think Microsoft is so slow in developing Windows?
    Besides, WP is having performance problems since this path started with WP 8.0.
    The code merged is not the 30 year old code. It is the new Universal app API code which is optimized for low power, works on multiple screen, has much better security...

    I believe the kernel is also shared. The kernel us alway kept in tip top shape though, so it is nit bloated.

    So, there are benefits. In regards to development, the benefit is to code once and have it everywhere. Also, consistency in the interface is good between mobile and desktop.
    09-11-2015 01:59 PM
  3. Spectrum90's Avatar
    The code merged is not the 30 year old code. It is the new Universal app API code which is optimized for low power, works on multiple screen, has much better security...

    I believe the kernel is also shared. The kernel us alway kept in tip top shape though, so it is nit bloated.

    So, there are benefits. In regards to development, the benefit is to code once and have it everywhere. Also, consistency in the interface is good between mobile and desktop.
    WinRT was build on top of COM and Win32. In many cases WinRT APIs are just thin wrappers over Win32.
    In fact, in your Windows Phone there is a lot of 30 year old code. Microsoft had to port many win32 and Com APIs to the phone to make possible UAP.

    What's the benefit for the user? Apple is not having any problem maintaining multiple OSs.

    IMO, Windows RT was the future of Windows. Most people don't need the complexity of full Windows and would be better with a lighter and consumer oriented OS. Adding desktop support to a modern mobile OS would produce a better experience for a converged device.
    09-11-2015 02:19 PM
  4. jdballard's Avatar
    apparently it is not enough "duplicate code" to be able to release it yet. And, not even the "universal apps" are the same any more.
    Not sure what you're saying here. The idea is to have as little duplicated code as possible. There will be some - it's inevitable. So much of what a phone does, a tablet does and a desktop does as well. And no, it's not ready for release: it's a tech preview. Honestly, I do have concerns/doubts about them meeting the release date. It seems like the preview builds are a bit slower to get polish than the desktop version. Since the desktop code is what lived on and the phone is now having to use that, it's more work for the phone team. We'll see.

    As for the universal apps not being the same: again, the idea is maximizing code reuse not making them exactly the same. In a well designed app much of your underlying logic will be the same, but your UI will change based on form factor. Imagine a FB app getting your latest news feed items: how the UI displays the data it receives will vary from device to device, so that UI stuff has to be duplicated. Getting that data (sending the request to the server and getting it back) doesn't change. In Windows 10, the same methods will work on a desktop, tablet or phone. In the current world, the method for sending/receiving the data may change depending on whether you're targeting a desktop app/tablet app vs a phone app. There is some overlap between desktop/tablet vs phone in Windows 8, but in Windows 10 it will be the same. That makes a developer's life easier because it's less code to write. That's the appeal that MS is pushing in the universal app. Add in the ability to port android code to windows? Even better.

    Might very well be a lot of effort for MS but what the user will get/experience is just a less optimized/less userfriendly appearance...?
    Maybe in the short term. By fixing and unifying the underlying code, MS will be able to spend more time focusing on functionality than the guts that make it all work.
    CauseandEfect and a5cent like this.
    09-11-2015 02:42 PM
  5. jdballard's Avatar
    What's the benefit of merging a simple phone OS with an overly complex desktop OS with a 30 year old source code? Why do you think Microsoft is so slow in developing Windows?
    You assume that they haven't been cleaning up the source code over the last thirty years. Over the last several years, MS has been focusing on streamlining Windows.

    Besides, WP is having performance problems since this path started with WP 8.0.
    Not sure I'd agree with that. WP still runs just fine for me (on a 640 with 1GB of RAM) and the consensus has been that it's smoother than Android (although Android has been improving). Plus, with Windows 10 on mobile, it's basically starting over - again - and performance improvements are usually the last thing to be built in.
    a5cent likes this.
    09-11-2015 02:50 PM
  6. Nabkawe5's Avatar
    Not sure I'd agree with that. WP still runs just fine for me (on a 640 with 1GB of RAM) and the consensus has been that it's smoother than Android (although Android has been improving). Plus, with Windows 10 on mobile, it's basically starting over - again - and performance improvements are usually the last thing to be built in.
    Well, that's the thing though, I would love Microsoft to focus on performance improvements but how can they if all they do is restarting the OS and reserve more staff for side projects?

    I'm sure picking on Android and iOS is easy, but if Microsoft doesn't get on the ball right away and push more resources towards WM10 development, they'll end up with very bad reviews and less and less people will buy their products, which means less and less people will develop for both the new and old devices and we'll be left for phones that no one would even buy from us.
    09-11-2015 04:58 PM
  7. CauseandEfect's Avatar
    Sure an android development like CM might get a lot of bug fixes but doesn't mean that is how every company should do that. You do not see Android or IOS betas getting updated constantly. Usually just a few times. Every time they launch a new build for WM10 it has thousands of bug fixes and improvements. They are just doing things differently.
    09-11-2015 05:00 PM
  8. Nabkawe5's Avatar
    I'll stick to what a phone is for. Calls, email, text and running my business without the fear of being mugged by a fare for my Crapple phone /tablet.
    :D This is a funny comment, I would recommend holding the Nokia 3310 then, people will feel sorry to you and even start pooling money for you. Really? you make it sound like Apple products are like gold and then you say Crapple :D
    09-11-2015 05:09 PM
  9. Nabkawe5's Avatar
    Sure an android development like CM might get a lot of bug fixes but doesn't mean that is how every company should do that. You do not see Android or IOS betas getting updated constantly. Usually just a few times. Every time they launch a new build for WM10 it has thousands of bug fixes and improvements. They are just doing things differently.
    :) We actually been here before, like when Windows 8 took lots of heat so MS almost dropped WP8.1 development and it took ages for the OS to finally release as 8.1 (one of the reasons sighted for the delays were in fact that most developers were called out for W8.1 development)
    I'm sure that every company has the right to it's way of doing business, but MS software development is undeniably the most bureaucratic out of all the other OSs, even their APIs and programming tools seems crippled even by their own standards, it's not surprising that Microsoft loves making Android apps and are good at it, it must be because of how superior Android's development tool and API to MS's own OS.
    09-11-2015 05:18 PM
  10. slivy58's Avatar
    You appear to not get it. MS is not competing against iOS and Android in that way. They're doing their own thing. Therefore this whole talk of wars, races and other things means nothing.

    What's the hurry? Do you see Android OS moving into PC any time soon? (let's not talk about the joke that is a Chromebook that's not Android) Apple has been a PC maker for years and hasn't got anywhere near the numbers Windows does and it won't because it's too expensive and lacks software support from a lot of companies still.

    When you step back and stop reacting maybe you'll get it. Maybe everyone will get it but I doubt it.

    What MS is doing is something that is not being done by anyone else. They're first. When you step back and look at it you can start to realise what's involved. Stop thinking about now and think a little ahead. Think about what will be rather than what you think it's going to be. Stop looking at iOS and Android as examples because they're not the benchmark. There isn't one.

    YW on the age thing. I'm not an old guy myself but probably older than most on here. Many years using computers and technology.

    You obviously seem to be the expert here and although I may not totally agree you are entitled to your opinion, the only problem is, in your eyes everyone else's opinions are wrong and "they just don't get it"… Constant whiners we are LOL.

    “MS is not competing against iOS and Android in that way” and "They're doing their own thing" (so you say), if that is the case then we're all screwed, not sure what world you live in but it has a lot to do with the "competition" and I highly doubt most WP users want to be on the "trailing" edge of technology, and an incomplete one at that. In this day and age comparing against the competition is a reality no matter the differences/intentions and is nothing new, why do you think we have WP users, because they compared its platform to the others and saw it had something to offer at that time (for their needs) over the rest w/the future looking promising.

    You tell others to stop comparing yet you apparently couldn’t help it yourself… “Apple has been a PC maker for years and hasn't got anywhere near the numbers Windows does and it won't because it's too expensive and lacks software support from a lot of companies still”... I guess we’re all human. ;-)

    You can justify MS existence or lack thereof in the WM market all you want, in the end it "does" come down to the user as to whether it fails or succeeds, I still think we all have a stake in this and MS has an obligation, if not morally, to deliver, erase or diminish substantially the user base and do you honestly think MS would continue? As you've already stated most don't understand what is involved, fair enough, the problem is most don't care yet want results, and as for your "think a little ahead" comment I think MS failed to do that as well, it goes both ways, they dumped W8.1 in favour of W10M leaving us w/o a complete feature rich OS, who does that, oh right, only MS.

    Look at BBs blunders over the past few years, I see things playing out in a slightly similar fashion w/MS, not good for the "end user" nor for WP as a whole, to think MS doesn’t care and is “doing their own thing” is just absurd, if that is the case then they out and out lied. I don't give a rats behind how big MS is or where their main sources of revenue come from blah blah blah, the bottom line is many switched based on WM promoting/marketing, what it had to offer and the promises for the future. You can’t honestly tell me you haven’t bought a manufactures product and then found out it didn’t deliver or was “coming soon”, contrary to their marketing, which did not make you upset towards them? If you want to ignore their shortcomings and in no way MS should be held accountable so-be-it, many choose not too… See, we now have choice that you spoke of ;-).
    09-11-2015 06:00 PM
  11. slivy58's Avatar
    Using your analogy, this is an ultra-marathon, not a sprint.
    In todays standards it is an ultra-marathon.

    They may not succeed, but they're trying to do it right so they don't have to rewrite things yet again.
    "Trying to do it right" is a little subjective at this point, until we've reached that milestone and beyond we won't know, one thing I do know, theres lots of scepticism towards the platform and its future due to the many restarts.
    Nabkawe5 and Ian_Superfly like this.
    09-11-2015 07:45 PM
  12. chipeast's Avatar
    Wow that was the most ignorant post I've seen in a while....
    09-11-2015 10:58 PM
  13. hwangeruk's Avatar
    So what is the benefit of this so impressive effort?
    Universal apps. That's why it's worth the overhaul.

    you really aren't smart enough to be smug about this, and you childish nadella photo tells us all we need to know about your juvenile stance. All this emotion about a consumer product is very immature.
    09-12-2015 03:06 AM
  14. hwangeruk's Avatar
    In todays standards it is an ultra-marathon.



    "Trying to do it right" is a little subjective at this point, until we've reached that milestone and beyond we won't know, one thing I do know, there’s lots of scepticism towards the platform and its future due to the many restarts.
    No.
    They had 1 restart. 7 to 8
    moving from CE to RT for the core
    great decision
    that gets them to 8 which had apps that took little to move between desktop and mobile
    10 gets total universal (including Xbox)
    this is an amazing engineering feat, and what most of the know nothings on this thread will never be qualified to understand
    add onto that project Astoria, sandalwood etc for cross platform code migration and what MS are doing is unprecedented. Simply phenomenal.
    this post is one big I want it, I want it now childish thread. 10 mobile is about 2-3 months away, for grown ups that's very soon.
    09-12-2015 03:13 AM
  15. Ian_Superfly's Avatar
    No.
    They had 1 restart. 7 to 8
    moving from CE to RT for the core
    great decision
    that gets them to 8 which had apps that took little to move between desktop and mobile
    10 gets total universal (including Xbox)
    this is an amazing engineering feat, and what most of the know nothings on this thread will never be qualified to understand
    add onto that project Astoria, sandalwood etc for cross platform code migration and what MS are doing is unprecedented. Simply phenomenal.
    this post is one big I want it, I want it now childish thread. 10 mobile is about 2-3 months away, for grown ups that's very soon.
    In all you are saying that things are looking great for w10m and that 3% market share is a splendid achievement of Microsoft (they have never made any mistakes and all their decisions has been good)?

    Well , I guess it's just a matter of where you put the bar.
    Last edited by Ian_Superfly; 09-12-2015 at 03:41 AM.
    slivy58 likes this.
    09-12-2015 03:31 AM
  16. Ivan05il's Avatar
    MS programmers seem to struggle with this already written united code, see another delay in W10M build. Universal apps is a nice idea, but I do wonder if app programmers will adjust again, given the WP share is miniscule and it's a hassle to keep up with MS changing things with every OS upgrade. I wrote 3 apps for W8.1 for our software, nobody's asking me to make them universal, I only had to add a few buttons here and there, because MS killed charm bar in W10 and access to settings became tricky. So even if universal app on phones is possible, it isn't completely for free to develop, I do not see W8 app programmers rushing to put more work into something that is working already just to maybe reach a few more customers.
    09-12-2015 05:55 AM
  17. slivy58's Avatar
    MS programmers seem to struggle with this already written united code, see another delay in W10M build. Universal apps is a nice idea, but I do wonder if app programmers will adjust again, given the WP share is miniscule and it's a hassle to keep up with MS changing things with every OS upgrade. I wrote 3 apps for W8.1 for our software, nobody's asking me to make them universal, I only had to add a few buttons here and there, because MS killed charm bar in W10 and access to settings became tricky. So even if universal app on phones is possible, it isn't completely for free to develop, I do not see W8 app programmers rushing to put more work into something that is working already just to maybe reach a few more customers.
    Agree with you there and one of the things I fear, surely many app developers are going to say enough is enough, sad but true.
    Nabkawe5 likes this.
    09-12-2015 12:23 PM
  18. Nabkawe5's Avatar
    Meanwhile there're app developers still collecting profits on apps made for Android 4.0 and even 2.1
    Last edited by Nabkawe5; 09-12-2015 at 04:45 PM.
    Mogamy Cool likes this.
    09-12-2015 01:07 PM
  19. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    Yeah, right because you know what? All these bridging developing tools like Islandwood, Astoria, Centennial, Westminster, newer APIs for device connectivity, an all new browser more suited to modern web(read mobile web)- are for the betterment of Windows 10 on desktop because that's all Microsoft cares about, right? They have just realized after years of declining PC market and lowest share for PCs in computing that Windows on PCs is the future. Why just work on so many of these above mentioned development. Why not just work on Intel x86/64 based continuum phone and be done with it? And because XBox isn't the niche computing device so Microsoft is clearly prioritizing Windows 10 for it rather than W10 mobile. You guys are incredible!
    Mogamy Cool likes this.
    09-12-2015 01:21 PM
  20. Spectrum90's Avatar
    You assume that they haven't been cleaning up the source code over the last thirty years. Over the last several years, MS has been focusing on streamlining Windows.



    Not sure I'd agree with that. WP still runs just fine for me (on a 640 with 1GB of RAM) and the consensus has been that it's smoother than Android (although Android has been improving). Plus, with Windows 10 on mobile, it's basically starting over - again - and performance improvements are usually the last thing to be built in.
    They do some cleaning, but the code is complex and they have to support 30-20-10 year old third party programs that depend those old APIs. I'm not seeing the benefit for the users of carrying that burden. On the contrary, Windows development is slow and Microsoft can't deliver a competent mobile OS.

    Did you have Loading/Resuming in WP7? WP8 introduced the performance problems.
    09-12-2015 06:23 PM
  21. bkeran's Avatar
    Haha. Most of the people replying are blind microsoft fan boys. Something I once was. You're correct though, windows phone isn't making it at this pace. The WP phone itself is missing many features that the android OS has, and it is improving at an incredibly slow pace! It's a god damn big company, not a kickstarter, so why does it take them so long to add the basics and necessities that every other phone has? I'm talking about simply things like interactive widgets, a god damn lock screen change (and don't bring up that sad excuse for a lock screen app that came out last year), split screen, the list goes on. On top of this, Microsoft doesn't keep any of their apps exclusive, as you said. So you can't blame the business for doing this considering their WP has less than a 4% market share, but why do they advertise one note, cortana, skype and other microsoft features if you can find those same exact features on other OSes that might even function better?
    Added to this is the long and consistent history of microsoft digging a hole for their windows phone: They destroyed the zune music player which was perfect in every way, they made the People App launch facebook rather than being included, they even gave away what makes microsoft distinct and started copying the apple and android OS with the circle, hamburger button, bright colored included-apps.

    So basically windows phone is 3 years behind, and will keep being behind if Microsoft doesn't hire more than 2 people to work on the phone. So will I upgrade to a WP 10? I damn hope so because I love the OS. First, however, Microsoft has to surprise me with some nifty features by being an equal runner in the phone race.
    09-13-2015 11:04 PM
  22. Titaniumgiant's Avatar
    Yaaaaaaaaaawn
    Wes Smith likes this.
    09-14-2015 03:02 AM
  23. spazinvader's Avatar
    N_LaRUE

    Well. They are universal apps now don't they? which means the same code should be working on a Desktop, Tablet, Phone, etc right? Which means they should have created an API to communicate with OS rather than talking directly to the hardware. And Windows 10 is released already and there are many apps that do started coming as Universal apps.

    So I am going by the guess that APIs should be done and they are there for being used. Bug fixes on APIs will always happens. But the core functionality of the API should be there by now. Right?

    Besides, even if we have to think Windows 10 mobile should have different APIs than Windows 10(even though this do break the Universal Apps strategy), we are looking at a OS which will be released in at most 2 months. I am sure any sane software development company would have finalize the core components, communication between the various levels & features and keep on fixing the bugs with them at this point of time. Even if the company is as big as Microsoft. So we could say, an educate guess, that APIs are right now ready and they are up there for the ripe by the app developers. :-)
    09-14-2015 03:22 AM
  24. spazinvader's Avatar
    bkeran

    I am not making fun of you or supporting Microsoft. Just clarify these things for me to understand :-)

    Interactive widgets? What do you mean by that? If it's like actionable notifications, it is included with the Windows 10 mobile. Once it is officially released, it is time for the developers to make use of it.

    Lock screen change? I am using bing wallpaper of the day and it keeps on changing my wallpapers everyday. I can do the same with Facebook also. You mean something like wallpapers from a custom album you create?

    Split windows? As of now, the only phones that do support split screen multitasking is Samsung and no other. And that too not for all the apps. So it is safe to say that this is not a 3 year old feature. If Microsoft can pull out split screen multitasking for all the apps, that would be great. There will be a lot of use cases for these too. However, we need to wait and see about that :-) As of now, Lumia 1520 is just a bigger cousin of the other Lumias without any added advantage. This could very well turn the tide with splitscreen support.

    And just like you, I am seriously wondering why in the world they pulled out the music/video players out. The reason they gave is that they can update them separately and thus quicker bug fixes and feature additions. I am yet to see those coming. And I am talking about the apps from Windows Phone 8.x itself rather than Windows 10 mobile.

    I would be happy if whatever things I see now are proven wrong and Microsoft indeed yet to pull out their trump card. Hopefully, they pull it off any time soon.
    09-14-2015 03:37 AM
  25. daemron's Avatar
    bkeran
    And just like you, I am seriously wondering why in the world they pulled out the music/video players out. The reason they gave is that they can update them separately and thus quicker bug fixes and feature additions. I am yet to see those coming. And I am talking about the apps from Windows Phone 8.x itself rather than Windows 10 mobile.
    Bug fixes, for mp3 player? Winamp did this in 1990. Bug fixes, for video player? Wm10 can't even play .mkv in 720p while other players in store can, flawlessly.
    09-14-2015 03:47 AM
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