Never expect full attention from Microsoft again for WM10

[Ian_Superfly]

Again you're mixing things. Office products vs OS. Make up your mind. Are talking OS or Office?

Office has been out on Apple products for some time now as well as Android. They only updated it to work with split screen. You do realise that people have to buy Office on iOS through a subscription? It will be free on W10M.

You seem to be missing the point completely. MS is a software company first. They sell software to people and companies. It's how they make their money. They have different groups working on different products. You don't seem to understand this concept.

The Office programmers are not the OS programmers in other words. There's probably separate groups working on iOS and Android versions as well. Office on W10M will be a universal app. That's completely different than anything on iOS or Android.

You're lacking understanding of how things work in large corporations is showing and your lack of experience in large projects. No idea what age you are but you seem to lack these things and the perception that goes with it. You're not alone in this of course. There's lots of moaning going on in the forums most of it based on lack of understanding of the simplest aspects of programming and how work gets done.

The fact that you're comparing the update to Office on iOS to W10M which hasn't released yet is a clear indication that you're not thinking clearly.

Don't talk about Office on W8.1. The issue here is that Office is integrated into the OS. Upgrading it was always going to be difficult. So let's wait and see.

When will we see? When W10M is released. Office 2016 is coming out. That's the universal app for W10. When it's all said and done then you can have a whinge if you don't like it. At lest then you'll have a complete picture.

What good is it to be in the garage rebuilding the engine (again and again) while the competition is out on the race track (and then put many of your mechanics to wash and polish the competition…) earning fame and money?

Btw, thanks for the flattering regarding my age!

 

[Ed Boland]

All I've got to say is in regards to Microsoft at the Apple event. I believe every minute Microsoft had that stage was a WIN for us and our platform, and couldn't have been better timing. Every Apple fan that saw the event either in person or online, had a small seed planted in the back of their head that Microsoft was still alive and well, and that they're still the reigning king of productivity. Apple even said it themselves; "who knows better about productivity than Microsoft" (They didn't mention their own "Pages, Keynote, or Numbers" apps!) So even the people that buy the next iPhone/iPad or even android know, that to get that level of productivity, you have to go with Microsoft... Because Apple told them so. Microsoft can only win here.

So later this fall, when Windows 10 mobile is released, along with all the new phones, PCs, the Surface 4 Pro, and the new Office, more and more people are going to recognize Win10 mobile as a viable platform. That seed is going to start growing. Microsoft has been training the millions of Windows 10 PC users to recognize the Windows 10 mobile start screen every time they click on their Start menu on their PC. It's a subliminal, and I think brilliant way to prepare future Windows 10 mobile users for their next phone purchase decision. Current iPhone/android users that also use a PC with Windows 10 are going to start wanting the same "Start" experience on their phones.

I may be in the minority here, but I actually think Windows 10 mobile might have a chance this time around. My only hope is that they market and advertise it the right way. Maybe something like "take your Start menu with you" or something like that. Bring back the "Start" campaign and the Rolling Stones "Start me up" song as well. Have an ad where someone sits down at a PC and clicks on the Start button and they zoom in on the Start menu, then zoom back out and see that the same Start menu is now on a phone in the user's hand. Then the same user takes the phone to a different room and it connects to a larger display with a keyboard and mouse ala "Continuum" and the seamless workflow "continues" from there! Maybe have it zoom back out and realize the Start menu is now on the Xbox One...

I might be squandering off topic here and starting to daydream, but my contribution to the discussion in this thread is yes, Microsoft has teams dedicated to apps and services on other platforms. So what? Rest assured they also have teams working on the next update for Windows 10 for PCs, as well as people working on Windows 10 mobile. They also have teams working on Hololens, Office, IOT devices, Azure Cloud services, Enterprise business solutions, and countless other technologies and innovations that none of us have even seen yet! Microsoft still employs thousands of people. When Windows 10 Mobile is ready, they'll release it, support it, and I have no doubt that we'll have their full attention.

 

[Ivan05il]

Insides of the OS are irrelevant for the end user. They do not care if it is a mobile platform of an OS or an OS itself. If they cannot see anything interesting on the surface then the author of the mobile platform failed, no matter how complex and intricate the system is inside. The goal is to sell it, not to satisfy its authors' egos.

 

[N_LaRUE]

What good is it to be in the garage rebuilding the engine (again and again) while the competition is out on the race track (and then put many of your mechanics to wash and polish the competition…) earning fame and money?

Btw, thanks for the flattering regarding my age!

You appear to not get it. MS is not competing against iOS and Android in that way. They're doing their own thing. Therefore this whole talk of wars, races and other things means nothing.

What's the hurry? Do you see Android OS moving into PC any time soon? (let's not talk about the joke that is a Chromebook that's not Android) Apple has been a PC maker for years and hasn't got anywhere near the numbers Windows does and it won't because it's too expensive and lacks software support from a lot of companies still.

When you step back and stop reacting maybe you'll get it. Maybe everyone will get it but I doubt it.

What MS is doing is something that is not being done by anyone else. They're first. When you step back and look at it you can start to realise what's involved. Stop thinking about now and think a little ahead. Think about what will be rather than what you think it's going to be. Stop looking at iOS and Android as examples because they're not the benchmark. There isn't one.

YW on the age thing. I'm not an old guy myself but probably older than most on here. Many years using computers and technology.

 

[Ian_Superfly]

Have an ad where someone sits down at a PC and clicks on the Start button and they zoom in on the Start menu, then zoom back out and see that the same Start menu is now on a phone in the user's hand. Then the same user takes the phone to a different room and it connects to a larger display with a keyboard and mouse ala "Continuum" and the seamless workflow "continues" from there! Maybe have it zoom back out and realize the Start menu is now on the Xbox One...

That is a beautiful idea!
I do not expect MS marketing to be that creative but I love the idea!

 

[Ian_Superfly]

What's the hurry? Do you see Android OS moving into PC any time soon?.

Do you see Microsoft being able to sell a phone soon? ...

 

[N_LaRUE]

Do you see Microsoft being able to sell a phone soon? ...

Yeah I do.They're selling phones everyday probably, just not quantities like Android and iPhone.

 

[spazinvader]

N_LaRUE

I agree that OS development is difficult and too an OS that is to be used on all form factors is lot more difficult. Even for some one like Microsoft. But, you do understand that it is a long term strategy and not a consumer focus right? Right now, Mobile is totally into consumer focus. And the more focus of a consumer likes on the apps they use. An update, usually means that either there will be more features or there will be added stability. Windows 10 mobile took out key pieces of apps such as music player, video player, etc out so that they could be updated faster. Guess what? The taken out apps are missing lots of features that are available in their previous gen or there is a reduced stability. They pulled these things out from core OS so that they can be updated faster and yet the updates are not bringing any new features. Being an universal app seems to only hinder adding new features..

If the apps for other platforms are updated frequently, adding more features as well, what is the problem in the Windows apps getting updated? This would only suggest that either the Microsoft's own app developers for their mobile platform are not efficient or the platform is not good enough for them to add features. Both are actually worse.

And please do not argue that Windows 10 mobile is not yet released and so we can forgive the slowness in Microsoft's app updates with features. We are looking at the OS which will be released in a month or two. So all APIs and other facilities from the OS would be complete and only bug fixes are supposed to happen. With this feature set, if the app teams cannot make the app feature parity with the counterparts, when can we expect a feature parity? By threshold? At that time, apps in other platforms would have lot more features.

 

[N_LaRUE]

N_LaRUE

I agree that OS development is difficult and too an OS that is to be used on all form factors is lot more difficult. Even for some one like Microsoft. But, you do understand that it is a long term strategy and not a consumer focus right? Right now, Mobile is totally into consumer focus. And the more focus of a consumer likes on the apps they use. An update, usually means that either there will be more features or there will be added stability. Windows 10 mobile took out key pieces of apps such as music player, video player, etc out so that they could be updated faster. Guess what? The taken out apps are missing lots of features that are available in their previous gen or there is a reduced stability. They pulled these things out from core OS so that they can be updated faster and yet the updates are not bringing any new features. Being an universal app seems to only hinder adding new features..

If the apps for other platforms are updated frequently, adding more features as well, what is the problem in the Windows apps getting updated? This would only suggest that either the Microsoft's own app developers for their mobile platform are not efficient or the platform is not good enough for them to add features. Both are actually worse.

And please do not argue that Windows 10 mobile is not yet released and so we can forgive the slowness in Microsoft's app updates with features. We are looking at the OS which will be released in a month or two. So all APIs and other facilities from the OS would be complete and only bug fixes are supposed to happen. With this feature set, if the app teams cannot make the app feature parity with the counterparts, when can we expect a feature parity? By threshold? At that time, apps in other platforms would have lot more features.

I have to ask. Have you seen the APIs for yourself or are you just going by what the apps on W10M has?

 

[Ivan05il]

If something should be released in a month or two, they should now be in a phase when they are only testing and fixing bugs. OEMs, all two of them, need to receive the RTM sooner, so they can keep their deadlines. If MS is still adding things to the OS and they want to keep the deadline we can expect a very bumpy ride.

 

[jdballard]

I don't get people like you or others who just don't get it. OS development is difficult and what MS is doing is not easy.

Amen! Preach! I am amazed that they have rebuilt three times, from WM 6 to 7, 7 to 8 and now 8 to 10, with 10 being just Windows 10, not just a mobile OS and kept the functionality they have. I understand why they can't keep up functionally when they're rewriting the core.

I've been in software for 19 years, working with customizable, pre-built software (MS CRM, Salesforce) as well as some stand-alone apps - nothing remotely as complex as an OS. Even the simplest of apps takes work beyond what most people think. Sometimes the things that seem hard are easy. Sometimes the things that seem easy are hard. I get frustrated as a consumer, but I also realize the scope of work they have undertaken is enormous. The fact they've done what they've done is impressive. I do hope that once they're fully on Windows 10 and not having to rewrite the OS they'll keep feature parity and even maybe push things forward a bit.

I don't get this shouting and screaming and impatience. I still believe that the technical preview was a mistaken idea. They were better off without all this moaning. I really am confused by all this whining and complaining.

The whining & complaining is annoying, but I bet the feedback and telemetry is extremely helpful.

 

[jdballard]

What good is it to be in the garage rebuilding the engine (again and again) while the competition is out on the race track (and then put many of your mechanics to wash and polish the competition…) earning fame and money?

It's paying off the old technical debt and investing in the future with the maintainability of a single, shared codebase instead of separate, duplicated code. Thinking about Windows 10 being on your desktop, tablet and phone, running the same code is pretty amazing from a technical perspective. Using your analogy, this is an ultra-marathon, not a sprint.

They may not succeed, but they're trying to do it right so they don't have to rewrite things yet again.

 

[Ian_Superfly]

It's paying off the old technical debt and investing in the future with the maintainability of a single, shared codebase instead of separate, duplicated code....

apparently it is not enough "duplicate code" to be able to release it yet. And, not even the "universal apps" are the same any more.
Might very well be a lot of effort for MS but what the user will get/experience is just a less optimized/less userfriendly appearance...?

 

[N_LaRUE]

Amen! Preach! I am amazed that they have rebuilt three times, from WM 6 to 7, 7 to 8 and now 8 to 10, with 10 being just Windows 10, not just a mobile OS and kept the functionality they have. I understand why they can't keep up functionally when they're rewriting the core.

I've been in software for 19 years, working with customizable, pre-built software (MS CRM, Salesforce) as well as some stand-alone apps - nothing remotely as complex as an OS. Even the simplest of apps takes work beyond what most people think. Sometimes the things that seem hard are easy. Sometimes the things that seem easy are hard. I get frustrated as a consumer, but I also realize the scope of work they have undertaken is enormous. The fact they've done what they've done is impressive. I do hope that once they're fully on Windows 10 and not having to rewrite the OS they'll keep feature parity and even maybe push things forward a bit.



The whining & complaining is annoying, but I bet the feedback and telemetry is extremely helpful.

Thanks for being a voice of reason I'm not software developer but I work on very large engineering projects and I have some knowledge of what goes into developing software, including an OS. I have an IT certification and many years of curiosity with personal computers.

I understand what required on a large project like this and I have an understanding of how programming happens on projects like this due to knowing people in the field. People here are going by what the see in the technical preview but speak only from that rather than and understanding of the whole picture. Projects like this have a linear timeline with milestones but are not done in a linear manner. I don't think many people understand that concept.

I do honestly hope your right about the feedback.

 

[Nabkawe5]

So to sum up few points that people rather seem to think it's news or is relevant to this post

•Every company is a business, almost every big company has countless side projects and products to develop and maintain besides their OS/main product line, somehow users figured that out when they paid for a Microsoft product instead of having it for free.

•We're not responsible for Microsoft financial success, it's not our job to care about their fiscal year, it's actually their job to impress us so we could contribute to their ecosystem and buy their products, we in turn help them by saying this product is good and we recommend it to friends and family.

• No major decision to update Windows Phone came out of the good hearts of the people at Microsoft, people who shouted I feel like Microsoft is doing nothing are the reason behind Microsoft Insider program back when 8.1 took ages to happen.

•Building software is hard, that's not news for the biggest software company in the world, the argument is that Microsoft isn't giving WM10 any priority and the lack of staffing is obvious, specially as we go into the dangerous territory of the holidays where even patches for the OS would take longer to happen.

•The big picture MS is after have been long preached, "Soon & Will TM" have been well played out, most users are familiar of Microsoft strategy only not in a good light as the constant reboots are killing the idea and eventually the real benefactors are3 Microsoft employees as they'll code less in the future.

•The article is telling people not to expect a timely update or a feature rich OS anytime soon both are valid arguments that do make total sense and if anything we just lowered the bar for Microsoft to surprise us.

• As you're free to have your opinions, fighting those who complain about Microsoft won't get you anywhere, you don't have a leg to stand on to defend Microsoft as most of what you preached have been used up so many times, in fact I would take a million complaining user over a single user saying that people need to shut up, as at least those complaining millions will force MS into action

 

[Spectrum90]

It's paying off the old technical debt and investing in the future with the maintainability of a single, shared codebase instead of separate, duplicated code. Thinking about Windows 10 being on your desktop, tablet and phone, running the same code is pretty amazing from a technical perspective. Using your analogy, this is an ultra-marathon, not a sprint.

They may not succeed, but they're trying to do it right so they don't have to rewrite things yet again.

What's the benefit of merging a simple phone OS with an overly complex desktop OS with a 30 year old source code? Why do you think Microsoft is so slow in developing Windows?
Besides, WP is having performance problems since this path started with WP 8.0.

 

[Rising Mos]

What's the benefit of merging a simple phone OS with an overly complex desktop OS with a 30 year old source code? Why do you think Microsoft is so slow in developing Windows?
Besides, WP is having performance problems since this path started with WP 8.0.

The code merged is not the 30 year old code. It is the new Universal app API code which is optimized for low power, works on multiple screen, has much better security...

I believe the kernel is also shared. The kernel us alway kept in tip top shape though, so it is nit bloated.

So, there are benefits. In regards to development, the benefit is to code once and have it everywhere. Also, consistency in the interface is good between mobile and desktop.

 

[Spectrum90]

The code merged is not the 30 year old code. It is the new Universal app API code which is optimized for low power, works on multiple screen, has much better security...

I believe the kernel is also shared. The kernel us alway kept in tip top shape though, so it is nit bloated.

So, there are benefits. In regards to development, the benefit is to code once and have it everywhere. Also, consistency in the interface is good between mobile and desktop.

WinRT was build on top of COM and Win32. In many cases WinRT APIs are just thin wrappers over Win32.
In fact, in your Windows Phone there is a lot of 30 year old code. Microsoft had to port many win32 and Com APIs to the phone to make possible UAP.

What's the benefit for the user? Apple is not having any problem maintaining multiple OSs.

IMO, Windows RT was the future of Windows. Most people don't need the complexity of full Windows and would be better with a lighter and consumer oriented OS. Adding desktop support to a modern mobile OS would produce a better experience for a converged device.

 

[jdballard]

apparently it is not enough "duplicate code" to be able to release it yet. And, not even the "universal apps" are the same any more.

Not sure what you're saying here. The idea is to have as little duplicated code as possible. There will be some - it's inevitable. So much of what a phone does, a tablet does and a desktop does as well. And no, it's not ready for release: it's a tech preview. Honestly, I do have concerns/doubts about them meeting the release date. It seems like the preview builds are a bit slower to get polish than the desktop version. Since the desktop code is what lived on and the phone is now having to use that, it's more work for the phone team. We'll see.

As for the universal apps not being the same: again, the idea is maximizing code reuse not making them exactly the same. In a well designed app much of your underlying logic will be the same, but your UI will change based on form factor. Imagine a FB app getting your latest news feed items: how the UI displays the data it receives will vary from device to device, so that UI stuff has to be duplicated. Getting that data (sending the request to the server and getting it back) doesn't change. In Windows 10, the same methods will work on a desktop, tablet or phone. In the current world, the method for sending/receiving the data may change depending on whether you're targeting a desktop app/tablet app vs a phone app. There is some overlap between desktop/tablet vs phone in Windows 8, but in Windows 10 it will be the same. That makes a developer's life easier because it's less code to write. That's the appeal that MS is pushing in the universal app. Add in the ability to port android code to windows? Even better.

Might very well be a lot of effort for MS but what the user will get/experience is just a less optimized/less userfriendly appearance...?

Maybe in the short term. By fixing and unifying the underlying code, MS will be able to spend more time focusing on functionality than the guts that make it all work.

 

[jdballard]

What's the benefit of merging a simple phone OS with an overly complex desktop OS with a 30 year old source code? Why do you think Microsoft is so slow in developing Windows?

You assume that they haven't been cleaning up the source code over the last thirty years. Over the last several years, MS has been focusing on streamlining Windows.

Besides, WP is having performance problems since this path started with WP 8.0.

Not sure I'd agree with that. WP still runs just fine for me (on a 640 with 1GB of RAM) and the consensus has been that it's smoother than Android (although Android has been improving). Plus, with Windows 10 on mobile, it's basically starting over - again - and performance improvements are usually the last thing to be built in.