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  1. Steve Adams's Avatar
    I have been reading. I am under the impression that windows is now thinking about pushing 10 to users without carrier influence?

    So that means on the 12th we may get 10? Am I reading correctly?
    11-09-2015 04:04 AM
  2. Ekmeet Singh's Avatar
    I think Windows 10 mobile will still be pushed through carries but once Windows 10 mobile is installed on a device then any future update will be and should be without carrier influence.
    11-09-2015 04:21 AM
  3. Steve Adams's Avatar
    I knew that after 10 gets on our devices MS takes over, but I read something and thought that MS was pushing out 10 to win8 phones. But I was under the impression that they have to get carriers to do that. Thanks!
    11-09-2015 04:42 PM
  4. milkyway's Avatar
    Carriers will have to supply the update from 8.1 to 10. From then on out carriers will only have "input" in further updates
    11-10-2015 01:20 AM
  5. Steve Adams's Avatar
    Ok, I misunderstood the article that was posted. I knew that carriers had to push the 10 update. I think they will be reluctant to do so. Considering they get rid of some of their control then.
    11-10-2015 04:50 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    I knew that after 10 gets on our devices MS takes over, but I read something and thought that MS was pushing out 10 to win8 phones. But I was under the impression that they have to get carriers to do that. Thanks!
    Carriers have never, in the history of WP, ever "pushed out" a single update to any WP device. Ever. Updates are always distributed to users device's from either an MS or an OEM update server.

    The only thing carriers do, is sign off on those updates. They just hand over a piece of paper giving the OEM the right to distribute a specific update to a specific device model on their network (and only their network). That's all. The OEM then does that, or MS does it for them.

    Anyway, don't get your hopes up too high in regard to MS taking complete control over the update process. I'm not saying it's impossible, but some healthy scepticism is advised. So far the information on that front has been very sketchy and chances are we've just taken from those very vague announcements only what we wanted to hear.

    The chances of carriers relenting all control of updates to MS while leaving themselves with no say over what runs on their network is pretty much zero. There is a catch somewhere...
    libra89 likes this.
    11-11-2015 05:06 PM
  7. Krystianpants's Avatar
    That's not true. I have friends in large carriers here an it goes through them. Even my phone without data and wifi off will update through carriers servers. They leave the firmware on their servers. This is for carrier purchased devices. Some May just redirect to ms in a man-in-the-middle fashion. But most here dont as it costs them too much to go through external pipes. phones will never contact ms directly unless you get them from MS. This is for the carrier brand phones.
    11-11-2015 05:17 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    That's not true. I have friends in large carriers here an it goes through them. Even my phone without data and wifi off will update through carriers servers. They leave the firmware on their servers. This is for carrier purchased devices. Some May just redirect to ms in a man-in-the-middle fashion. But most here dont as it costs them too much to go through external pipes. phones will never contact ms directly unless you get them from MS. This is for the carrier brand phones.
    I worked for a carrier.

    Define "goes through them"? To me it sounds like you're talking about OTA programming, which is only the protocol used to distribute the update. That doesn't mean carriers host the update themselves.
    11-11-2015 05:20 PM
  9. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I worked for a carrier.

    Define "goes through them"? To me it sounds like you're talking about OTA programming, which is only the protocol used to distribute the update. That doesn't mean carriers host the update themselves.
    Ok, This what i'm saying. The image is given to the carriers and tools to modify. They can then modify the image to add their own apps or interfaces and update servers. Then they push the update out. OTA programming would just be them forcing configuration, but they can't modify the software image on the phone through such a mechanism.

    They host it on their own network as well. And this allows them to take the burden of the heavy data for all users without connecting through their MPLS points.

    The problem now is that these "modification tools" are not being provided to carriers and this is why they don't want to deal with the new lumia phones for the most part. In Canada no carrier is actually going to be selling them. I mean god when updating my phone I always get their ugly red tile defaults and stupid applications. So question is whether AT&T has MS creating a separate image for them that will come preloaded with AT&T apps but will still be in control of the services. I don't even know if AT&T has any apps.
    11-11-2015 06:40 PM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    Ok, This what i'm saying. The image is given to the carriers and tools to modify. They can then modify the image to add their own apps or interfaces and update servers. Then they push the update out. OTA programming would just be them forcing configuration, but they can't modify the software image on the phone through such a mechanism.

    They host it on their own network as well. And this allows them to take the burden of the heavy data for all users without connecting through their MPLS points.

    The problem now is that these "modification tools" are not being provided to carriers and this is why they don't want to deal with the new lumia phones for the most part. In Canada no carrier is actually going to be selling them. I mean god when updating my phone I always get their ugly red tile defaults and stupid applications. So question is whether AT&T has MS creating a separate image for them that will come preloaded with AT&T apps but will still be in control of the services. I don't even know if AT&T has any apps.
    Honestly, what you're describing sounds nothing at all like what I've witnessed, but I can't claim to know the process used by every carrier in the world, so I'll have to admit there is a chance some carrier somewhere in the world is doing something very out of the ordinary.

    What you're describing is typical of Android however. A process that allows a carrier to modify an OS image was most definitely never, anywhere in the world, ever applied to an iOS device, and I've never heard of it being applied to WP either. Carrier specific WP ROMS are assembled by the OEM, not the carrier. Carrier specific apps are typically not directly baked into the WP ROM either. Instead, carriers with their own WP apps just upload them to the store. OEMs bundle carrier specific configuration files together with their carrier specific firmware, in which they reference those apps, which are then downloaded during initial setup. That's the last and longest step of the initial setup.

    I don't know, but what you're describing as a WP update process sounds totally foreign to me. That's really all I can say about it.
    Krystianpants likes this.
    11-11-2015 07:38 PM
  11. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Honestly, what you're describing sounds nothing at all like what I've witnessed, but I can't claim to know the process used by every carrier in the world, so I'll have to admit there is a chance some carrier somewhere in the world is doing something very out of the ordinary.

    What you're describing is typical of Android however. A process that allows a carrier to modify an OS image was most definitely never, anywhere in the world, ever applied to an iOS device, and I've never heard of it being applied to WP either. Carrier specific WP ROMS are assembled by the OEM, not the carrier. Carrier specific apps are typically not directly baked into the WP ROM either. Instead, carriers with their own WP apps just upload them to the store. OEMs bundle carrier specific configuration files together with their carrier specific firmware, in which they reference those apps, which are then downloaded during initial setup. That's the last and longest step of the initial setup.

    I don't know, but what you're describing as a WP update process sounds totally foreign to me. That's really all I can say about it.
    Well if ms can control the update process and there's no branding in windows 10. Technically they can do the update right now on everyone regardless of the carrier. They already have the data from insiders that it works. Why is there a carrier dependent schedule?
    11-11-2015 08:23 PM
  12. PepperdotNet's Avatar
    Well if ms can control the update process and there's no branding in windows 10. Technically they can do the update right now on everyone regardless of the carrier. They already have the data from insiders that it works. Why is there a carrier dependent schedule?
    Technically yes, but MS has agreements with various carriers that stipulate which conditions exist before updates go out.

    The updates always come from Microsoft's servers, regardless of how they got there. The only time it goes over a carrier network is when the phone isn't connected to WiFi, bit even then it's coming from Microsoft.
    a5cent, libra89 and Laura Knotek like this.
    11-11-2015 08:41 PM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    Well if ms can control the update process and there's no branding in windows 10. Technically they can do the update right now on everyone regardless of the carrier. They already have the data from insiders that it works. Why is there a carrier dependent schedule?
    Exactly what PepperdotNet said. Legal issues, not technical. I remember MS employees telling me back in 2012 that they could technically update every WP device on the same day if OEM's provided the ROMs at the same time and carriers wouldn't interject themselves legally.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    11-11-2015 08:46 PM
  14. Steve Adams's Avatar
    Thankfully, this will happen after w10m becomes the mainstream. This is another reason that they want windows 10 on as many phones as possible.

    There is more to it than what you think A5ent. The carriers always bake some of their own apps, bloat into their OS. I know when I refreshed my 1020 with 8.1, there was a bunch of AT&T apps in the mix. If the carriers did not do anything to the ROM then these apps would NOT be there.

    Now, fast forward to w10. Microsoft has gotten their head out of the sand and created an update path like apple. You have windows 10, you get the updates, bypassing the bloat and crap from the carriers. Android is horrible for having carriers add their JUNK to OS's. Android phones have to wait up to six months or more to get their latest roms depending on phone and carrier. Its a mess. Just because you worked for a carrier, does not mean there is not this going on. What exactly did you do in the carrier?
    11-12-2015 04:25 AM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    There is more to it than what you think A5ent. The carriers always bake some of their own apps, bloat into their OS. I know when I refreshed my 1020 with 8.1, there was a bunch of AT&T apps in the mix. If the carriers did not do anything to the ROM then these apps would NOT be there.
    I just explained how that works a few posts up. It doesn't work the way you're assuming it does. Those apps aren't baked into the ROM.

    As for everything else in your last post... don't be too surprised when reality doesn't quite meet your expectations. I'd love nothing more than carriers getting out of the way entirely, but I'll have to see it to believe it.
    11-12-2015 04:35 AM
  16. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Exactly what PepperdotNet said. Legal issues, not technical. I remember MS employees telling me back in 2012 that they could technically update every WP device on the same day if OEM's provided the ROMs at the same time and carriers wouldn't interject themselves legally.
    K well I guess my understanding was that it's much like android. So what makes it different with windows 10 where ms says they will get carrier input but ultimately decide to roll out on their own? Is it because of how they classify windows 10? Or are they prepared to take them to court? I don't think any carrier wants to battle MS in court.

    That or all the agreements have expired and no new ones are being made
    11-12-2015 05:58 AM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    K well I guess my understanding was that it's much like android. So what makes it different with windows 10 where ms says they will get carrier input but ultimately decide to roll out on their own? Is it because of how they classify windows 10? Or are they prepared to take them to court? I don't think any carrier wants to battle MS in court.



    That or all the agreements have expired and no new ones are being made
    Yeah, that's what your post sounded like to me too. How WP updates are distributed is really not comparable to Android at all. That already starts with the fact that WP isn't distributed to OEMs as source code but exclusively in binary form. Completely different approach.



    Unfortunately, I have no idea what this talk of "MS distributing updates independently" entails. I have nothing more to go on than the "reporting" we've all seen.



    Unfortunately that has so far been extremely vague and we've heard nothing about it in months. I'm sure somebody somewhere is once again thinking about these "huge promises" MS made. However, I have as of yet, not seen a single such comment made by MS.



    I'm not saying it's all lies. I just think it sounds too good to be true. In most cases that means it's not true.



    Wait and see...
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-12-2015 at 06:29 AM.
    11-12-2015 06:17 AM

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