(Deja Vu) Palm all over again?

[skhwoody2201]

Sick of rubbish like this. I was always a believer in that if you talk something down enough, it will eventually do that. But in the case of Windows Phone this is not the case and even in preview form, this platform is giving me a better user experience than i have had with either ios or android.

 

[R3mis]

Sick of rubbish like this. I was always a believer in that if you talk something down enough, it will eventually do that. But in the case of Windows Phone this is not the case and even in preview form, this platform is giving me a better user experience than i have had with either ios or android.

You, sir, are right. Although I often complain about W10M, I still like it million times more than the other two "ships" "everyone" in these forums wants to jump to.

If they stop making phones with Windows Mobile, and my 930 stops working, then I'm F'd. I'd rather buy a "dumb" phone with physical buttons and lose the smartphone experience than buy an Android device or an Apple product.

 

[skhwoody2201]

Agreed. Sateya said himself that MS is more keen on becoming a 'services' company rather than a device company. He said he wanted MS to be everywhere, regardless of which device you use. They have rolled out many excellent and top class iOS/Android apps, while the Windows Mobile equivalent of those apps pale in comparison and get less updates if any. They made a deal with Samsung to include MS pre-loaded apps on Galaxy phones (last year) and have updated office 2016 for Mac. Again, all this despite their mobile OS not really every becoming polished (I have 3 lumias, including the 950 so please no one say that Windows Mobile is polished).

As far as Windows as a whole goes, it would take decades for it to fall below 50%, but the market share is definitely not going to stay above 90% in the next year or two. Mac has taken so many customers due to people's pleasure with iOS, and quite honestly people who go mac don't usually return to windows. Especially with the diverse windows hardware available, you really never know what you are gong to get, as each has a big flaw in design/performance in some area. Say what you will, but with Macs the overall experience will NEVER leave you saying "but the speaker sucks" or "but the keyboard sucks" or "but the keys are not backlit" or "too much bloatware" or "no drivers after update" or the screen sucks" or "it's heavy" ... etc etc etc... their machines are always all around good performers, never having one or two major points of skimping out for cost purposes. Widows OEMs make good stuff but there is a trust problem as they all have poor track records and if the device is truly all around good, then what it the support like? People have learned with apple that you pay a little more but you get peace of mind. I priced out an iMac and a Dell XPS 27 inch all in one.. and for the same price the iMac offering was more powerful and better quality and even had features that Dell doesn't offer. Wan't a powerful SurfaceBook, you pay more than you would for an equivalent Macbook Pro. At the higher end Apple's prices are not horrendous as some say they are. What makes Apple look bad/expensive is that they have no 'cheap' line of products so everything seems expensive. Never the less, If you want quality you pay for it, no matter who the manufacturer. If you want junk, then that will always be available and that's what will keep Windows afloat for decades to come. The junk consumer market.... you know, the laptops with 70% nice features and a crappy screen, or a nice screen and a crappy processor, or crappy speakers, or a horrible keyboard, or filled with bloatware.

Google is ramping up for some sort of their own OS deployment, not just Chromebooks but mainstream desktop replacements with filing systems and native apps. I have an xps 13 from last year but mostly I just use my Chromebook, even when I travel. It really does literally 99% of what I need. If they added just a few more features to the OS (which they will), I can completely live without windows (or osx). It's going to happen, so MS is further going to lose market-share in their desktop/laptop arena. Poor performance and impending doom for Windows mobile is the LEAST of their worries.

There is so much i disagree with in this post, You would think this had been lifted out of a mac power magazine. My experience and of many friends of ios is poor and disappointing, and with android it was so full of bloat ware and unnecessary updates i moved on with trepidation i have to add to Windows Phone. The problem for microsoft is that apple users will purchase a polished turd, if an apple logo was slapped on it (take ipad pro for example) that sold in drives, even though it cannot hold a candle to the surface line, but the sheeple will buy anything.

I believe that if Microsoft carry on this path, and develop WM10 and Windows 10 continuing to improve stability and usability it can only paint a rosy picture. I think apple and google see that there is a challenge there. And for the user we need many manufacturers to drive innovation. The fact many manufacturers are now picking up the mantle and making windows phones, even with an incomplete os is a good thing.

Only this week you see apple showcasing moving images in photography, something i have had on my windows mobile for over 18mths. But apple will claim the innovation and many will believe them. It is all about the marketing and belief. And all the attacking of Windows 10 Mobile is great, as they are attacking a operating system which is not fully complete, but i believe they see as a threat to their dominance in the long run.

I think anyone who actually uses a windows phone it will see what a great phone system this is, so much more flexible and less restrictive than the opposing companies efforts. I for one think this is a very exciting time for technology, and can only hope that people whichever side of the fence you sit will see that innovation and competition only pushes a drive for better products. Obviously Windows phones being the best..

 

[telomoyo]

I like many points given here. Windows Mobile is definitely a great operating system. In some occasions, hate is a form of flattery. Going with something different than mainstream is not always a bad thing. If anything, it can be a good thing. We belong to a small group that have lived the thrill of not knowing if our phones will blow in our hands. Haha. J/k. This OS is improving, not aa fast as some wish, but it is improving nevertheless.

 

[Daniel Daring]

Here is where I see Windows Phone in the next few years.
I see it as a strong business device (something they should have done with WP7).
Windows Mobile from the early days all the way through WM6.5 was a powerful business device. It did lose some business marketshare to Iphone but not that much actually. It was never a great seller as a consumer device though.

Move forward to WP7, it was released with no business or Enterprise features, leaving a huge hole in the market to allow Iphone (who ironically enough licensed exchange support, making it more business friendly that WP7). No current applications or tools from WM6.5 worked on the new device, there was no real benefit to upgrading.

Move forward to Windows Phone 8. It started to add some business features, but still had a ways to go.
Windows Phone 8.1, Added a ton of new business features, and some businesses started taking interest. Some actually have them deployed at the primary device.

Windows 10 is clearly a WIP push to unify the Windows Environment and create 1 core. It is also gaining tons of new enterprise features and security.
As this gets built out, businesses will take notice and it may actually become successful there.

Here is why:
1. Security is strong on 10 once finished (Bitlocker, no side loading, etc).
2. Business (workplaces), this allows custom policies and configurations you could never do on Iphone and Android. This allows the work environment to give access to internal tools and resources without installing apps.
3. Custom App store. Businesses can add their own app store, and due to universal apps can create an app for Desktop, Tablet and Phone in 1 go. The Business private store is separated from the personal store.
4. Dual One Drive support. With a provisioned phone (workplaces), it is possible in Windows 10 to segregate business content and personal content between your personal One Drive and the Business One Drive.

The ability to have a phone with Enterprise class security, custom stores, and access to provision the phone with group policies and segregate business and personal data, will be hugely attractive, and is something Iphone nor Android are doing at this time.

Will the phone ever become a strong consumer device, that is unknown at this time. It may reach that point as more people have them for business, or it may remain primarily an enterprise phone.


Personally the reason Windows Phone works great for me is exactly this.
1. I use it for mail heavily. People talk about unified Inbox, and all these other features. Do you really want a Unified Inbox mixing business and personal mail? Top that off with the fact that you can pin individual mail folders to the Desktop to quickly see when you have important mail based on your Outlook Exchange Rules (something you cannot do on Android or IPhone).
2. WorkPlace, I do use workplace to access internal resources from links in my mail (with full Office support this is awesome). I don't have to pull out my laptop to quickly see a slide deck or update a word/excel document and answer a mail on the go.
3. Internal app store, this is great for getting apps I would not normally have on the go.
4. Continuum, this is excellent for presentations. I can bring up the full slide deck for presentations, and still answer Skype for Business messages (related to the presentation) on the phone. This is a powerful feature.

The list goes on, Windows Mobile 10 is and will become a powerful and useful Enterprise tool that also supports personal use in a segregated environment.

 

[Johnny Tremaine]

I don't get what the surprise is here. Microsoft said they were going stop dishing out dozens of different models while they regrouped. In the meantime they'd stick a phone out for the fans to grab if they really couldn't wait
They've done that haven't they?
The 950/950xl came out. They've had little or no marketing. They are for the fans. In no way is this meant to attract new people. This is the regrouping stage. This means that the revenues will go through the floor. When you are losing money on the phones that you are selling, maybe it helps to sell fewer phones whilst you work out where you are going.
Whether it works or not will be seen if/when they bring out a surface phone or a surface phone 2.
Not everything needs to be hyperbole. It's not either the greatest thing in the world or the worst thing.
If you like it, great. If you don't, fine.
The regrouping/not putting out loads of phones faze was never going to be just a couple of weeks in mid winter. It could take a while and it might never happen. We will only know when we look back on it in a few years.

I agree with this, and it's also what Paul Thurrott has been saying on his site: this isn't a surprise.

Last Summer, after writing down the Nokia acquisition as a total loss and sacking thousands of the Nokians, the CEO announced that they're dramatically scaling back their phone business, in terms of models (and investment, and resources). The result is, no sales and little interest.

Windows Mobile as it exists now, and the Lumia devices and any future 'Surface' phones, are not, and not likely to be popular mass market devices, with big marketing pushes. Redmond is done pouring endless advertising and marketing behind their mobile offering. Microsoft lost in mobile; they'll keep plugging on with the OS, for niche uses and fanboys, but mostly as a showpiece that Windows can be extended to mobile.

I fully expect the Lumia 650, to *be* the last Lumia device that Microsoft produces. After that, maybe a Surface device at some point, that can also make phone calls. That may take off, and it may not. My guess is that it'll be some huge phablet monster with a stylus, like the Dell Venue 8, that also runs full Windows, which means, it'll be a niche use product

 

[bitfidler57]

Re: Palm all over again (Deja vu)

I agree with this. They have constantly done on the mobile side what they never did on the Desktop side: Drop support for older applications in favour of a new way of doing things.

Microsoft, you built a great brand through Windows desktop. You've messed things up with Windows phone/mobile etc. by doing the wrong things over and over again.

On the plus side I do see a number of Windows Mobile (BTW let's change the name to Microsoft Mobile) devices showing up in commercials and at a meeting last week there were 4 of us who had mobile devices out of 16 (so 25%).

 

[jlzimmerman]

Who cares you said? Devs care! You think they are going to develop for a 0.5% market share platform? Do you think consumers will even consider of this pathetic platform if there is practically no apps available at all?

"Consumers are going to suffer if iOS and Android are the only two options." No they are not! Do you know how interesting Android phones as compared to our latest 950 "flag ship"? Look at all the different capabilities of Android phones - working with stylus, second top screen information, easy note taking when screen is off, TV remote controller, etc etc.... Vast capabilities as compared to windows phones which the only good thing about is its camera, that's it. Continuum? It doesn't seems to gain any popularity at all sadly especially with the highly priced docking station. Also, Continuum works like a crippled RT version of Windows 8.

iOS? Stable and battery friendly. Vast selections of apps that are well polished and update frequently. Static icons? Apparently that doesn't matter at all to the world except for WP fans are hating static icons and are so proud of their "live" tiles.

So enough of all these "who care" attitude. We need to care in order for the platform to pick up speed. We need to screw MS and let them know when they are not making things right. Otherwise, this platform is really as good as dead.

My "Who cares?" comment wasn't about apps or enticing developers. The "Who cares" comment was to all the fan boys who rejoice any time a competing platform falls flat or is faced with doom. Why do these people care? They shouldn't. It's not like the iAndroid fans or WP fans get a check in the mail for loyalty, or some bonus if a competing platform fails. It's completely ridiculous.

And yes, Consumers will suffer with only two mobile ecosystems from which to choose. Lack of competition stiffens growth, creativity, and increases cost for consumers.

 

[ludikreco]

Thats so not true..if the Surface phone is true it will make big boom...if its going to be able to run 32 bit aps and exe files belove me many people will buy it.

 

[tgp]

And yes, Consumers will suffer with only two mobile ecosystems from which to choose. Lack of competition stiffens growth, creativity, and increases cost for consumers.

We basically have two mobile ecosystems now, since iOS and Android make up 97% of the market. Consumers are not suffering. It could be argued that the ones suffering are those in the 3% category.

 

[theefman]

Thats so not true..if the Surface phone is true it will make big boom...if its going to be able to run 32 bit aps and exe files belove me many people will buy it.

Unfortunately, with 1 billion + mobile users today already getting along fine without Windows x86 applications on their phones if that's the new savior's only party trick then its not going to make any kind of "boom", let alone a big one.

I think this is where most people don't get the whole "mobile is the future" thing. Mobile today is all about people doing more and more on their phones and tablets alone and moving away from the desktop paradigm, and that is only going to become more pervasive going forward as these devices get more and more powerful and capable of more advanced tasks. Compared to this being able to run desktop programs from your phone isn't going to be the silver bullet for Microsoft as all it does is basically replicate the declining desktop paradigm into a more portable form factor so you are still tied to a desk, just in a different location but that still doesn't bring any of the new mobile experiences to the platform. In other words, all it does is offer more of the same that people are moving away from.

So the "surface phone" will appeal to some but the majority will ignore it as it doesn't meet the needs of todays mobile user. If that's what people are pinning their hopes on I can see them being disappointed once again.

 

[polychromenz]

I'm constantly confused by these sales stats. We hear about sales dropping to 1% market share but we never directly state whether we mean new sales (if the old phones are still being used then as a dev I can still sell software to the owners) or are we talking total market share? Again if the share goes down but the physical number of WM devices hasn't fallen then devs wont need to stop targeting a device.

For large companies this may affect decisions on development of an app but for indie devs, if there are still x million devices and I have an app that I can sell to them at $1 its still a big enough market to make me very happy

 

[tgp]

I'm constantly confused by these sales stats. We hear about sales dropping to 1% market share but we never directly state whether we mean new sales (if the old phones are still being used then as a dev I can still sell software to the owners) or are we talking total market share?

Sales are representative of market share. If nothing else, they are the market share of the future. We do not see numbers for active users except sometimes for Android. I've not seen any for iOS or WP. There are numbers thrown around, but they're mostly the result of a WAG.

 

[anon(8145610)]

It has been and will always be a lack of popular apps that dooms WP. Period.
What part of that equation can't people understand?

 

[Nogitsune Micah]

It has been and will always be a lack of popular apps that dooms WP. Period.
What part of that equation can't people understand?

These are the same people who think more oems ia going to be what saves the platform

 

[Tien-Lin Chang]

These are the same people who think more oems ia going to be what saves the platform

With strict limitations of UI, hardware SPEC MSFT applied to OEMS. I doubt it will make any changes to the customers and I think that's the reason OEMS had left this platform, leaving it to the "offical brand".

And I don't see much policy change in W10m game.

 

[a5cent]

^ Which is a good thing. Many characteristics about an OS are interdependent. For example, without the UI and hardware spec restrictions, it would be impossible for the insider program to work on anything except Lumia devices. More importantly, the update policy changes coming with W10M (partially circumventing carriers) would also be impossible. One can't remove the limitations you think are bad, without sacrificing other capabilities (and more), which IMHO are far more important.

 

[Ian_Superfly]

My uninformed GUESS is that Nadella felt that he had to choose between saving Office and WP.

To secure the future of Office he did choose to let the ?WP only? restrictions for Office go. When ?good? Office was available on iOS/Android and the WP decline accelerated further there was not any point to keep any other Microsoft restrictions for iOS/Android and thus WP/W10M was doomed (as a generally used system).

The "Universal apps" approach will not change anything (still guessing). Semi optimized apps will never beat 100% optimized (features, performance and UI).

Sad if you ask me

 

[Tien-Lin Chang]

^ Which is a good thing. Many characteristics about an OS are interdependent. For example, without the UI and hardware spec restrictions, it would be impossible for the insider program to work on anything except Lumia devices. More importantly, the update policy changes coming with W10M (partially circumventing carriers) would also be impossible. One can't remove the limitations you think are bad, without sacrificing other capabilities (and more), which IMHO are far more important.

Android got nexus devices to do the testing, not seeing much were sacrificed because of the non-standard hardwares on the field. This long and painful(?) insider program is special to WP/WM only due to their slow pace of development. Do we really need give anyone access to insider if MSFT can develop their OS fast enough and release RTM to everyone?

My uninformed GUESS is that Nadella felt that he had to choose between saving Office and WP.

To secure the future of Office he did choose to let the “WP only” restrictions for Office go. When “good” Office was available on iOS/Android and the WP decline accelerated further there was not any point to keep any other Microsoft restrictions for iOS/Android and thus WP/W10M was doomed (as a generally used system).

The "Universal apps" approach will not change anything (still guessing). Semi optimized apps will never beat 100% optimized (features, performance and UI).

Sad if you ask me

It brought most of the benefit to the programmers however I really don't see much change from the UX side so far. Those "continue work/over the cloud" feature can be done without UWP as well so I still failed to see the benefit of UWP to the end user.

 

[Spectrum90]

I think this is where most people don't get the whole "mobile is the future" thing. Mobile today is all about people doing more and more on their phones and tablets alone and moving away from the desktop paradigm, and that is only going to become more pervasive going forward as these devices get more and more powerful and capable of more advanced tasks.

So the "surface phone" will appeal to some but the majority will ignore it as it doesn't meet the needs of todays mobile user. If that's what people are pinning their hopes on I can see them being disappointed once again.

Mobile already peaked. The top apps has been the same since many years. Every interesting use case of the form factor is already implemented. What else can you do with a phone or a tablet?
The decline of sales is a consequence of the lack of innovation. Phones and tablets are boring, a new device provide the same experience just a bit faster. Mobile is the past, the future is new platform.

Mobile users aren't a bunch of geeks using every possible app. It's a very heterogeneous group of people with different needs. Windows doesn't need to appeal to all of them, Microsoft has to find a niche and grow from there.
The Surface Phone would target primarily the enterprise market as a replacement of phones issued by companies and desktop PCs. That's a very lucrative niche.