(Deja Vu) Palm all over again?

[rdifiori]

God how I wish they would have just left Nokia alone.

 

[Spectrum90]

Here's the thing about "mobile" that makes it different than other computing platforms. The fact that it is mobile is because humans move around in the world by our nature and for a long time we were unable to bring along computing as part of that natural movement. Continuum is anti-mobile. It tries to turn a mobile device into a desktop device, which is never going to be a huge, mainstream feature. Yes, there are some people who would die to have Continuum, but 95% or more of the mobile public wants "mobility." They don't care about being tied down with wires, adaptors, desks, keyboards, monitors. And on the other end of the spectrum, the largely office-bound, computer-using workforce needs and demands full-size monitors, keyboards, mice, etc. If a company already has all that stuff at every workstation it makes no sense to come up with some scheme that allows people to instead carry around their phones with all of their important and highly sensitive business information onboard. And, in any case, when that worker gets to their desk they still need the monitors, keyboards, mice, cords, etc. Today's desktops and laptops are pretty small and powerful and will continue to outperform any phone just due to available space for storage, ports, screen size, etc. In short, Continuum is cool, but it is a niche. If it starts to look like it might become popular enough why wouldn't Apple jump in and dominate the space?

Data is encrypted on the devices. There is no problem in carrying around sensitive business information. We already do that in laptops.

IOS is not compatible with PC apps. Companies have solid infrastructure and experience in managing PCs.

People don't want to carry two phones and a laptop around. Continuum could solve that problem, and if it becomes popular you could expect the experience to improve. For example, the phone could be connected to a laptop dock provided by your host, or wireless work-stations ready to use with your phone.

Continuum is the next step in Mobility. Your work environment moves with you, wherever you go.

 

[Tom Westrick]

Data is encrypted on the devices. There is no problem in carrying around sensitive business information. We already do that in laptops.

IOS is not compatible with PC apps. Companies have solid infrastructure and experience in managing PCs.

People don't want to carry two phones and a laptop around. Continuum could solve that problem, and if it becomes popular you could expect the experience to improve. For example, the phone could be connected to a laptop dock provided by your host, or wireless work-stations ready to use with your phone.

Continuum is the next step in Mobility. Your work environment moves with you, wherever you go.

Data may be encrypted, but if it's stored local to the phone it's still gone if the device is lost or stolen. The better solution to taking files back and forth between locations is network storage or a corporate OneDrive account, which works fine with both iOS and Android.

On your next point about employees carrying multiple devices, they would instead be carrying a phone, a dock, a keyboard, a mouse and then scavenging for a monitor. How is that more convenient than a phone and laptop?

Posted via the Windows Central App for Android

 

[DarthVedder]

Data may be encrypted, but if it's stored local to the phone it's still gone if the device is lost or stolen. The better solution to taking files back and forth between locations is network storage or a corporate OneDrive account, which works fine with both iOS and Android.

On your next point about employees carrying multiple devices, they would instead be carrying a phone, a dock, a keyboard, a mouse and then scavenging for a monitor. How is that more convenient than a phone and laptop?

Posted via the Windows Central App for Android

It might not be more convenient, but it could be more cost effective. A mobile phone + a dock and a keyboard/mouse are less expensive than a phone + a laptop. If continuum works correctly with windows apps, meaning that they can use a full desktop that's basically the same as a laptop desktop, it could be attractive for some companies and some of their employees.

But, for this to happen, the phone has to be able to behave like a laptop when running those apps. If a phone with that kind of power is too expensive, then it just won't matter.

 

[Tien-Lin Chang]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you think should be discussed separately. We're discussing two capabilities:

a) Microsoft's technical capability to distribute insider preview updates to every W10M device (no matter which OEM built the device)
b) Microsoft's technical capability to distribute official updates to every W10M device, largely without interference by carriers (no matter which OEM build the device)

both of those capabilities absolutely necessitate a standardized hardware and software platform, i.e. one where OEMs aren't capable of willy-nilly modifying the code base and rebuilding their own device-specific version of W10M. As soon as an OEM introduces such OS customizations, MS looses the ability to update those devices directly, because MS' OS update packages don't contain the device specific customizations the OEM made.

Either way, I can assure you that allowing OEMs such "freedoms" now would change absolutely nothing. Not a single OEM would re-enter the WM market, much less engage in such expensive development/customization efforts. Neither HTC nor Samsung quit WP/WM for this reason either. Both companies quit the market because they simply couldn't sell enough devices to make it worthwhile. If OEMs can sell enough devices to make it worthwhile, they won't pass up the opportunity to make more money, and will re-enter the market, with or without such "freedoms".

In fact, at this point in the game, the exact opposite is true. Giving OEMs an OS they can install onto their phones (in the same way you can install Windows onto a white-box PC), along with a few pre-built drivers for standard off-the-shelf hardware (like camera modules, etc.), is the only shot WP/WM has with other OEMs. The cheaper it is to build a W10M device the better, although currently it doesn't matter either way. Even if it cost OEMs only $1 to build a W10M device, it's still a bad deal if OEMs can't sell it... currently.... they can't.

I'm ok with the two items you list above, they are just OTA update and I don't see huge difference between WP8/W10M. What I'm trying to say is the diversity between phone components are not as large as PC components, I'll try to break my thought down.

a)From WP7 to WP8, MSFT had changed to Windows NT kernel and W10M stays the same. So from WP8 to W10M should be just like update your PC from Win7 to Win8 or Win8 to Win10. Sometimes you'll use win7 driver for some device on win8 and they just work, I think the same should be apply here in mobile device field when the OS are similar (which I do think WP8/W10M are similar).

to support this
a.1)When I tried to rollback my ATIV S from 10536 to 8.1, I noticed the DFU/bootloader are the same. Which means the basic firmware (=BIOS in PC) is the same, the way hardware been boot up is the same (CPU/GPU/eMMC...etc). So the preformance of upper layer OS (WP8/W10M) is mostly just driver issue to optimize the hardware.
a.2)I hack my ATIV S, faking L920 to get newest TP build and there a known issue - the camera lost autofocus ability under default camera app. However 3rd party camera app drive the AF like cream and for sure samsung using different module even sensor compared to L920 so there's obviously this camera module of my ATIV S is driven by WP8 driver on W10M system and it works well. To me it prove there's only optimize issue when you trying to upgrade from WP8 to W10M regardless the hardware in most cases.

Increasing hardware diversity shouldn't be an issue stopping new OS update through OTA if OEM are giving firmware update ahead. Like there's no MTK powered WP devices due to MTK refuse to release driver for WP OS, but if they did then we might see MTK WP8 phone solution as well and if they release proper W10M firmware (driver) then OTA W10M update is easily.

And all there can be under MSFT organize by releasing clear update roadmap instead of just apply strict limitaion.

Because MSFT's roadmap from WP8 to W10M is unclear and full of limitaion so OEMs couldn't be prepared and make good feature out of their product and always behind 1st party product(Lumia). Then for sure they losing out feature/support/reputation then finally market share so they quit.

I agree with your statment that OEM won't come back hard, MSFT just missed the time when Samsung/MTK/Huawei pushing hard to make their own hardware to give it a try here. This is really strange in WP/WM field that even MSFT waived the license fee which suppose make the cost of the OS cheaper than Android however we never see devices cheaper than android in same SPEC. Even those japanese new comer are making expensive (compared to android) yet low SPEC phones....What's going on?! The low-end WP/W10M are never looked sexy/attractive to me....

 

[Steve Thackery]

It has been and will always be a lack of popular apps that dooms WP. Period.
What part of that equation can't people understand?

It's not that we can't understand. It's that you are making an assertion without providing any evidence to support it.

 

[a5cent]

I'm ok with the two items you list above, they are just OTA update and I don't see huge difference between WP8/W10M. What I'm trying to say is the diversity between phone components are not as large as PC components, I'll try to break my thought down.

a)From WP7 to WP8, MSFT had changed to Windows NT kernel and W10M stays the same. So from WP8 to W10M should be just like update your PC from Win7 to Win8 or Win8 to Win10. Sometimes you'll use win7 driver for some device on win8 and they just work, I think the same should be apply here in mobile device field when the OS are similar (which I do think WP8/W10M are similar).

to support this
a.1)When I tried to rollback my ATIV S from 10536 to 8.1, I noticed the DFU/bootloader are the same. Which means the basic firmware (=BIOS in PC) is the same, the way hardware been boot up is the same (CPU/GPU/eMMC...etc). So the preformance of upper layer OS (WP8/W10M) is mostly just driver issue to optimize the hardware.
a.2)I hack my ATIV S, faking L920 to get newest TP build and there a known issue - the camera lost autofocus ability under default camera app. However 3rd party camera app drive the AF like cream and for sure samsung using different module even sensor compared to L920 so there's obviously this camera module of my ATIV S is driven by WP8 driver on W10M system and it works well. To me it prove there's only optimize issue when you trying to upgrade from WP8 to W10M regardless the hardware in most cases.

Increasing hardware diversity shouldn't be an issue stopping new OS update through OTA if OEM are giving firmware update ahead. Like there's no MTK powered WP devices due to MTK refuse to release driver for WP OS, but if they did then we might see MTK WP8 phone solution as well and if they release proper W10M firmware (driver) then OTA W10M update is easily.

And all there can be under MSFT organize by releasing clear update roadmap instead of just apply strict limitaion.

Because MSFT's roadmap from WP8 to W10M is unclear and full of limitaion so OEMs couldn't be prepared and make good feature out of their product and always behind 1st party product(Lumia). Then for sure they losing out feature/support/reputation then finally market share so they quit.

I agree with your statment that OEM won't come back hard, MSFT just missed the time when Samsung/MTK/Huawei pushing hard to make their own hardware to give it a try here. This is really strange in WP/WM field that even MSFT waived the license fee which suppose make the cost of the OS cheaper than Android however we never see devices cheaper than android in same SPEC. Even those japanese new comer are making expensive (compared to android) yet low SPEC phones....What's going on?! The low-end WP/W10M are never looked sexy/attractive to me....

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I understand what you're saying now.

I agree with you as long as we're applying those principles only to peripheral hardware. The camera you mentioned is a good example of peripheral hardware. Other examples would be the display drivers, drivers for sensors and microphones, etc. Peripheral hardware is basically any hardware that isn't part of the SoC (CPU, GPU, DSP, MMP, etc). WP/WM has allowed OEMs to include their own drivers for peripheral hardware ever since WP7, so that's nothing new. OEMs can already do that, which IMHO is fine.

I'd disagree if you're advocating that we apply the same model for the SoC however.

I can tell you with certainty that MS won't be providing that capability, for a lot of very good reasons, but I'm not sure how to explain it succinctly. Maybe I'll think of something later ;-)

 

[Ten Four]

It might not be more convenient, but it could be more cost effective. A mobile phone + a dock and a keyboard/mouse are less expensive than a phone + a laptop. If continuum works correctly with windows apps, meaning that they can use a full desktop that's basically the same as a laptop desktop, it could be attractive for some companies and some of their employees.

But, for this to happen, the phone has to be able to behave like a laptop when running those apps. If a phone with that kind of power is too expensive, then it just won't matter.

Sure, but we're talking about a niche use here--that is never going to be a mainstream way of enterprise computing where most people sit at desks most of the time. Just the act of wandering around a building wastes time, and they want you tied to your workstation so you are "productive." I actually work at a SaaS company where our primary work computers are all laptops so we can move to different locations, but because they are laptops it is feasible in that we move with a large battery, a keyboard, an input device (a lot of us also carry our mice with us), and everyone can be up and running within seconds of getting to the meeting. If we had just phones it would be nice to carry, but then we would need cords, keyboards, monitors, and power cords all cluttering up every meeting space. The mess and awkwardness would negate the benefits of being able to just carry a phone to the room. The main point here is not that Continuum won't work and won't be popular with some people, it is just that it is a cool feature that will be loved and embraced by some, but won't be a game changer. I don't see millions of people using their phones as their primary computing device.

 

[mariusmuntean]

Sure, but we're talking about a niche use here--that is never going to be a mainstream way of enterprise computing where most people sit at desks most of the time. Just the act of wandering around a building wastes time, and they want you tied to your workstation so you are "productive." I actually work at a SaaS company where our primary work computers are all laptops so we can move to different locations, but because they are laptops it is feasible in that we move with a large battery, a keyboard, an input device (a lot of us also carry our mice with us), and everyone can be up and running within seconds of getting to the meeting. If we had just phones it would be nice to carry, but then we would need cords, keyboards, monitors, and power cords all cluttering up every meeting space. The mess and awkwardness would negate the benefits of being able to just carry a phone to the room. The main point here is not that Continuum won't work and won't be popular with some people, it is just that it is a cool feature that will be loved and embraced by some, but won't be a game changer. I don't see millions of people using their phones as their primary computing device.

Exactly. Many assume that continuum will be the wow factor to bring new users in. Well, here's the bad news! It's not, I very much prefer having my notebook with me than using continuum, mainly because it is so limited right now and because I trust my non windows notebook more than MS's new gadget, and for sure more than I could trust windows 10.

 

[ArtificiallyYours]

God how I wish they would have just left Nokia alone.

Not like they would have done any better.

 

[libra89]

Not like they would have done any better.

Yep, I agree with this. I like that people are conveniently forgetting that this is the same company who made the 530, which is essentially junk.

 

[Andrea988]

Re: Palm all over again (Deja vu)

IMHO, the whole leviathan known as Microsoft needs to get it's head out of it's collective backside and smell the roses. The whole thing still reeks of we are right, you, the consumer, is wrong. They carry on as if, we, the end user have no choice in OS's. Not just mobile either. I cannot believe that they buy out a company with a world wide brand name and then ruin it. They are banging on about WM and how it links to the entire ecosystem, and don't bother with any kind marketing! They then release a 'flagship' device that fells like mid range android device (at best!!), with an under developed OS, and everybody in the tech press slate it. I can't believe they 'give' windows 10 away and plug it. They release the surface, and plug it (regular tv spots in UK), yet the device that can link them all together gets nothing. No one knows what continuum is, outside of the teccy's, they release yet another device with the same old 1gig, 8gig setup, and then wonder why things are going tits up!

The icing on the cake? You have the guy in charge not using 'your' product. What happened to practice what you preach?? Oh, hang on they don't market the phones do they, so you can't accuse him of that!!

Same old same old. People read this press garbage, put 2 & 2 together and come up with 7. The three latest phones, the 550, 950 and 950XL were only released a few weeks ago and already people are writing WP off as a failure (again). How the hell anybody can come to that conclusion after such a short time beggars belief.

Is it so easy to forget, or not realise, that must people are tied to a contract and might not be in a position to upgrade for anything up to 2 years? Most people buying the 950/XL will be contract customers and we know the phones are not going to sell like hot cakes so you can't evaluate their success this early. The market share for new sale has dropped because Microsoft are consolidating the range instead of having a bucket load of similar phones like Samsung have, whose mobile phone division is losing a LOT of money.

Like many more people I think a Surface Phone will appear later on, which will be the real competitor to the iphone as it will compliment the Surface range in the same way that the iphone and iPad go together.

In the meantime Microsoft might have already asked that they are not going to touch Apple with the current range - I don't think they are too concerned about Android since those manufacturers who do carry it have to pay Google for the privilege. So lets not forget that any profit made isn't shared in the way Android is which makes a huge difference.

To be fair they also have to contend with the unfair press they get. I can't imagine how many people must have been put off by poor reviews. Look at how many reviews slag off the Lumia 950 (on which this is typed with the wonderful swipe keyboard), yet it doesn't look cheap at all. In fact I have the black version and the sides look and feel exactly like matt black painted metal. As for the rest of the phone it's brilliant. What's not to like?

I do take the point about advertising though, seems odd that they don't advertise it alongside the Surface. My best guess is that they are concerned that people's perception of Windows phone might put them off buying the Side.

 

[Andrea988]

The downturn in revenue is kind of expected after Microsoft stopped spewing out tons of low and mid-range Lumias and concentrating on a smaller portfolio of devices.

We already know where the market share is for Windows Phone, and I don't think that Microsoft spending huge amounts on marketing will really make much of an appreciable dent in that share.

It makes sense to me for Microsoft to concentrate on Windows as a product (and service) and promote that across a wide range of devices (nice to see that the Surface line is healthy). Sadly, the press (including here at Windows Central) can't really help themselves spinning things in a negative way, which adds yet more nails to the coffin. Everyone loves to bring down the big guy in the room.

At last, a post with a bit of common sense. I was being to think I was the only one who gets it.

 

[Vladimir Ka]

Sure, but we're talking about a niche use here--that is never going to be a mainstream way of enterprise computing where most people sit at desks most of the time. Just the act of wandering around a building wastes time, and they want you tied to your workstation so you are "productive." I actually work at a SaaS company where our primary work computers are all laptops so we can move to different locations, but because they are laptops it is feasible in that we move with a large battery, a keyboard, an input device (a lot of us also carry our mice with us), and everyone can be up and running within seconds of getting to the meeting. If we had just phones it would be nice to carry, but then we would need cords, keyboards, monitors, and power cords all cluttering up every meeting space. The mess and awkwardness would negate the benefits of being able to just carry a phone to the room. The main point here is not that Continuum won't work and won't be popular with some people, it is just that it is a cool feature that will be loved and embraced by some, but won't be a game changer. I don't see millions of people using their phones as their primary computing device.

How long is your meeting? Half of the people bring their mice and power supplies to meetings with them anyways..
What if everything is already setup in the meeting room and you just plugin your phone.. Or "continuum" doc for laptops, didnt Motorola tried that not long ago?
Before people didnt think laptops would replace desktops.. now its much easier and cheaper for the big businesses to give users laptops.

Imagine in 5 years phones have the hardware good enough to run most advanced apps or with the rise of VMs, just RDP..
You come to work, plug in your phone and work. Go home, plugin your phone, work.. No need to carry a big laptop, just a phone which you already carry anyways...
Not to be sexist, but I've seen women carry "rolly bags" just for their laptops, for sure they will be happy not to..

And most importantly, savings to the corporations..
MS is already tied in all big enterprises.. Solid management platform is implemented in most of them.. and now push for visualization..
How hard would it be to add "WP10" node in SCCM and manage them.. All patches, software, reporting.. it would take nothing to implement..
Enterprises spend millions on building up infrastructure (the only reason why BB is still alive).. And MS already has it, just need to make a solid device and with pretty much 0 cost to new infrastructure x86 phones will fly off the shelves..

 

[mariusmuntean]

Re: Palm all over again (Deja vu)

In fact I have the black version and the sides look and feel exactly like matt black painted metal. As for the rest of the phone it's brilliant. What's not to like?

Yes, the phone is indeed wonderful. I did not mind either the lack of metal. It is slim,great display,great camera,removable battery,microSD support. HW wise it has nothing that you could miss. You have asked: What's not to like? Well most of the reviews had resulted in poor scoring not because of the phone iself, but because of the mediocre OS and the fact that MS is selling these devices to normal people out there, not insiders only, not tech people only, but average Joes, with this broken OS. This is the reason why you see the reviews having a negative outcome. I could bet anything that if MS would have launched these 950s with WP8.1, it would have been a much better situation, much better sales and of course better review scores.

 

[Johnny Tremaine]

Half of the people bring their mice and power supplies to meetings with them anyways..
What if everything is already setup in the meeting room and you just plugin your phone.. Or "continuum" doc for laptops, didnt Motorola tried that not long ago?
Before people didnt think laptops would replace desktops.. now its much easier and cheaper for the big businesses to give users laptops.

Imagine in 5 years phones have the hardware good enough to run most advanced apps or with the rise of VMs, just RDP..
You come to work, plug in your phone and work. Go home, plugin your phone, work.. No need to carry a big laptop, just a phone which you already carry anyways...
Not to be sexist, but I've seen women carry "rolly bags" just for their laptops, for sure they will be happy not to..

(Looks at calendar) What is this, 2005?

Last I checked, you can buy a pretty light and small ultrabook that weighs about two pounds, has about the size footprint of a large spiral paper notebook, has a great screen, and a pretty good trackpad.

Anyway, it's irrelevant; due to the failure of Windows phones to catch on in the market, Continuum, and businesses supplying plug in docks and monitors will never be a thing. At this point, it's moot and strictly theoretical.

 

[PepperdotNet]

If Microsoft makes a phone built on x86 "real" Windows that runs smoothly, I can join to a domain and get to documents stored on the local network file shares, and install our line-of-business applications to, my company will instantly buy a pallet full of them, and a continuum dock on every user's desk.

 

[Johnny Tremaine]

If Microsoft makes a phone built on x86 "real" Windows that runs smoothly

I'm sure that key part, 'runs smoothly' (and stable, and bug free) is the make or break aspect for any theoretical 'Surface Phone'.

Otherwise, you can use, per your use case scenario, a perfectly fine Surface Pro 3 or 4. Those are no bigger than the size of a paper notebook, and you'll probably see better performance, and most importantly..........*it's available right now, at retail*.

That's what I don't get about any Surface Phone proponents, why would you want the compromised experience? Let a phone be a phone, and use the Surface computers for your enterprise needs.

 

[Vladimir Ka]

(Looks at calendar) What is this, 2005?

Last I checked, you can buy a pretty light and small ultrabook that weighs about two pounds, has about the size footprint of a large spiral paper notebook, has a great screen, and a pretty good trackpad.

Anyway, it's irrelevant; due to the failure of Windows phones to catch on in the market, Continuum, and businesses supplying plug in docks and monitors will never be a thing. At this point, it's moot and strictly theoretical.

Most of the enterprises still have standard hardware, not super slim laptops.. I dont think I've ever seen, X1 Carbon for example, used by anyone except Execs/managers with "connections".

Just like the post by PepperdotNet above, if x86 is released and it actually works correctly with the rest of MS infrastructure, it will be the device of choice for businesses.
Continuum right now is a "technology test" and so far its pretty successful....

 

[Ten Four]

Re: Palm all over again (Deja vu)

How long is your meeting? Half of the people bring their mice and power supplies to meetings with them anyways..
What if everything is already setup in the meeting room and you just plugin your phone..

The typical meeting is limited to one hour so most of the time we don't need to carry power supplies with us. The rooms are all "hot" in that you have to be able to move in and out in a matter of minutes, because the next group is likely to arrive right after you and they might not need computers so all the clutter of computer crap has to be removed after every meeting anyway. Laptops are perfect for this. Everyone arrives with laptops fired up and just need to open the lids and away we go. Just the act of having to plug in the phones, then connect to the monitor, keyboard, and mouse would be a huge time waster. And, then the room is full of all that crap meaning someone has to put it all away before the next group can have their meeting. Most places I have worked are the same way. The same meeting room becomes a lunch room at noon and then a classroom in the afternoon and the board of directors meet there in the evening before a lecture at 9pm when comfy seats are brought in. I just don't see the practicality of Continuum for most business uses. Again, I can see there are niche uses, but it won't be mainstream.