08-03-2017 05:35 PM
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  1. anon(6078578)'s Avatar
    The key is apps. Get app devs on board. Deal with the companies that won't make apps for your platform. You're a multi-billion dollar company! You can do it.
    But hasn't Microsoft already been burned by that? I guess they would need to at least have a contract with them for a couple of years to guarantee they update their apps once they have built them.

    Maybe the price is simply too high even for a multibillion dollar company as I am sure those app companies are not going to do it as a favor and will want top dollar.

    What may be seen as pocket change to Microsoft by you and me, might not be viewed as such by shareholders who may see it as simply throwing good money after bad. The cost for one app might not be much in the scheme of things but multiply that by many and I could see it soon become a significant sum!
    libra89 likes this.
    03-17-2016 08:07 AM
  2. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    This is a strange situation compared with a few years back. In the past everything was done in the browser. I had a nokia 2700c which had opera mini. I used that for facebook, email, news, searching, research, music downloads, image downloads, attachment downloads etc.

    But now; now we have apps for every little function and feature, for every needed and imagined use. I want to control the alarm of my house using an app. I want to check my balance in my bank account using an app. I want to buy coffee using an app. Or pizza or get some service using apps.

    How did people get to that point? There are apps I have seen which just seem to fuel the need for being lazy.

    Then there are those that force you to be checking your phone every minute for the new post or the new tweet. Those tweets can wait, those emails can wait, those instagram photos can wait.

    The situation now is that almost every internet dependent activity you want to do on a phone is through an app. While ironically on a laptop every internet dependent activity is done through a browser (chrome OS)
    03-17-2016 08:08 AM
  3. anon(6078578)'s Avatar
    This is a strange situation compared with a few years back. In the past everything was done in the browser. I had a nokia 2700c which had opera mini. I used that for facebook, email, news, searching, research, music downloads, image downloads, attachment downloads etc.

    But now; now we have apps for every little function and feature, for every needed and imagined use. I want to control the alarm of my house using an app. I want to check my balance in my bank account using an app. I want to buy coffee using an app. Or pizza or get some service using apps.

    How did people get to that point? There are apps I have seen which just seem to fuel the need for being lazy.

    Then there are those that force you to be checking your phone every minute for the new post or the new tweet. Those tweets can wait, those emails can wait, those instagram photos can wait.

    The situation now is that almost every internet dependent activity you want to do on a phone is through an app. While ironically on a laptop every internet dependent activity is done through a browser (chrome OS)
    I think the worst example of needing an app for everything was the time my wife wanted to print off a quick photo at a photo kiosk in Walmart.

    I remember a while back you could simply Bluetooth the photo across to the kiosk. It had been a while since we'd done this so when I tried to do the same with my Lumia 640, I found it would not let me do anything at all until I downloaded their app first and of course it was iOS and Android only.

    I guess somewhere along the line they decided even Bluetooth was too complicated for customers to use without an app doing it for them.

    Of course I could've just inserted the memory card but that involves dismantling my phone and so again loses the convenience factor.
    03-17-2016 08:22 AM
  4. Ten Four's Avatar
    The situation now is that almost every internet dependent activity you want to do on a phone is through an app. While ironically on a laptop every internet dependent activity is done through a browser (chrome OS)
    I agree that the way of the future will be in the cloud and not these stupid local apps. Personally, I think Chromebooks are probably the best computing device for most people to purchase and use at home, and I bet they would also cover a lot of business uses. A Chromephone is the future. It will just be a tool to connect you to the cloud that will be everywhere and in everything. I suspect that's what Microsoft is thinking long-term. Phones are yesterday's big thing. They are trying to leap ahead and find the next big thing.
    03-17-2016 08:23 AM
  5. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    This is a strange situation compared with a few years back. In the past everything was done in the browser. I had a nokia 2700c which had opera mini. I used that for facebook, email, news, searching, research, music downloads, image downloads, attachment downloads etc.

    But now; now we have apps for every little function and feature, for every needed and imagined use. I want to control the alarm of my house using an app. I want to check my balance in my bank account using an app. I want to buy coffee using an app. Or pizza or get some service using apps.

    How did people get to that point? There are apps I have seen which just seem to fuel the need for being lazy.

    Then there are those that force you to be checking your phone every minute for the new post or the new tweet. Those tweets can wait, those emails can wait, those instagram photos can wait.

    The situation now is that almost every internet dependent activity you want to do on a phone is through an app. While ironically on a laptop every internet dependent activity is done through a browser (chrome OS)
    Everything on a phone is an app, technically. No different than a computer.

    Though web interface is nice, not all websites are mobile friendly and some lack functionality and security. Those are the biggest issues with using web interface.

    Of course, not all apps are great either. Some can be slightly malicious and some can be a drain on the battery (Facebook for example).

    The main point though is that apps are easier to use than your typical web interface which is why they are popular. I know a lot of people point to Apple as being the culprit in making apps popular but the truth is, a smartphone is a small computer and to use one you need apps.

    WP started with more 'integrated' apps in the OS but found this to be cumbersome when it came to upgrading, so that's why apps rule more than any other reason. They easy to upgrade, easy to use, and offer better security on the whole.
    03-17-2016 08:23 AM
  6. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    I honestly cant see myself using a product I hate lol...at least not as my daily driver. But then again, people probably cant see themselves using a product they like even if it isn't doing what it needs for them to do lol.

    But if I had to give up my windows phone just to have to settle for an OS I admittedly hate just for 'official' or 'proper' apps that I already have (excellent) 3rd party versions of....then I that is just not a way I want to enjoy technology. I can suffer with Android on my tablet because at the end of the day, the OS still sucks royally but my Lumia gets the job done 90 percent of the time (and I've gone as far as to install Android emulators on my surface negating the need for the tablet) so in reality, the tablet is redundant.

    I feel the same way. Ever since I bought the 920 and then 1020 and I'm in love with this phone. I was a BRAND ADVOCATE. I would go into argument with my friends on which is the best phone and I used to do it with passion.

    But eventually I felt, like if I'm gonna defend the brand more than the brand itself, then we have a problem. I want proper facebook, Youtube, Instagram, twitter apps. I don't want to wait a couple of years for every flagship model phones to be launched and sure as hell I do not want to spend months waiting for the phone to reach the middle east.

    And even when it reaches here, It is not available everywhere and I end up have to go from store to store to find it

    I eventually caved and bought an iPhone which I hate but what other choice do I have? If Microsoft does not want to step up and finish what they started, then to hell with them.
    03-17-2016 08:24 AM
  7. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I agree that the way of the future will be in the cloud and not these stupid local apps. Personally, I think Chromebooks are probably the best computing device for most people to purchase and use at home, and I bet they would also cover a lot of business uses. A Chromephone is the future. It will just be a tool to connect you to the cloud that will be everywhere and in everything. I suspect that's what Microsoft is thinking long-term. Phones are yesterday's big thing. They are trying to leap ahead and find the next big thing.
    Cloud base is a great idea, so long as you have access to the cloud. Even in the country I live in, the UK, internet is not that great and mobile internet even worse. Data limits are still costly too.

    If the cloud is the future I think it's a long way off. Many countries have issues with mobile data. It's also not very reliable. You also wouldn't want to do private work on a public network. So there's a long way to go.
    03-17-2016 08:28 AM
  8. Ixolite's Avatar
    I think its a pretty complex issue and what is driving people away from WP is not one thing but rather all the little things put together.

    I am a very happy user of Lumia 820, that is actually the first phone I didn't feel like I need to switch from immediately after my contract was up. Before I was anxious to get a new phone after year, year and a half, because current one was getting slow, missed crucial functionality or was abandoned by the manufacturer (Android phones lifespan could be measured in months rather than years at some point). I love the system, I love live tiles, I love how snappy it still is after almost 3 years of using. But... I really don't see an upgrade option in WP ecosystem at this point. The iOS and Android are so far ahead that I am seriously considering switching to one of those and the are numerous reasons for that, the most important being:

    • App gap - it is real and it is at times a real problem. While I'm, for the most part, perfectly happy with the apps I have available on WP, the lack of updates and lack of support for the platform is undeniable. I do have all the apps I really need available, but there are times I would like to try out some new, popular app and I can't. Also, support for and from 3rd party is a pain - if there is a gadget with a dedicated smartphone app, 9 out of 10 times there is no app for WP. While it might not have been such a problem 2-3 years ago, this gap is growing instead of shrinking, there are more and more apps and accessories that you can't use on WP while they're available for other platforms.
    • Glacially slow development - that was always a problem for Microsoft. They show you a cool concept, make some promises and then take years to implement it. It takes them months to update even their own applications. Microsoft is simply losing the race and even if they make a big leap, catching up or getting ahead of others, they promptly fall behind and let others reap the benefits of the improvements initially designed and developed at MS.
    • Poor phones choice - I want to upgrade from L820 but I don't really see any phone I could switch to in WP ecosystem. All the new phones are either a sidegrade rather than upgrade, or are missing features I have and like in L820. Arguably even iPhones have better lineup currently with clear benefits when switching from one model to another.
    • No clear path for the future of WP - While you know what you can expect from Apple and from the big Android manufacturers, I really don't know what the future holds for WP at the moment. I love the concept of universal apps, but it doesn't seem like it is going to take off in any foreseeable future. Microsoft seems to support competing platforms more than its own currently which only adds to the confusion.
    • Microsoft changes their mind too damn often. They backed off and abandoned so many ideas that they put even Google to shame in that regard. They also change their branding so often that you don't really know what is what after some time. That doesn't make the WP platform the most stable and predictable, and doesn't bring all that much confidence in what they are doing.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-17-2016 08:29 AM
  9. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    The problem is that they would need to support the app after introducing it. App support would not be something provided by a part-time developer if we're talking about a major global corporation.
    Let's be real...someone with Rudy's credentials who is now working for Dropbox is it not is not some part-time developer? I'm sorry but that's just a cop-out excuse. Companies do often outsource/license development to developers. Not every major app is created inhouse by a corporations team.

    when you have a userbase, small as it may be, demanding your app. I can almost understand not wanting to invest your time and effort into the platform. But when you have a developer like Rudy who has the reputation he has both within Microsoft and now outside Microsoft, willing to do your heavy lifting and all you have to do is approve the code/app and if necessary draw up some terms and conditions or legal docs for this....and you outright deny them, it's more to it than your simply explanation.

    Snapchat could have easily made peace.
    Secret.
    Starbucks.

    Surprisingly tinder hasn't given them much difficulty it seems and our 6tin app is far better than the official tinder app.
    Shutting out users and forcing them to go to another platform because you don't want them to use your app despite people willing to make it easier on you in the long run, screams arrogance.

    Unfortunately, I like my java chip frappucino too much to tell starbucks where they can take their app and put it. :P
    03-17-2016 08:38 AM
  10. Ten Four's Avatar
    If the cloud is the future I think it's a long way off. Many countries have issues with mobile data. It's also not very reliable. You also wouldn't want to do private work on a public network. So there's a long way to go.
    Chromebooks already account for 50% of the computers in schools here in the USA, and Project Fi for phones combines cellular data with access to public wifi protected by a VPN and encryption. A lot of people spend 90% of their time at home or at work with Wifi all around, and in major cities it is possible to find it in many public places. There are a lot of people who use phones mainly or solely on wifi. It is already possible to do so. Are there big hurdles, yes! Is the situation different in different countries, yes! But, I bet someday we will look back and think of computers and phones with local apps as the "good old days."
    03-17-2016 08:46 AM
  11. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Chromebooks already account for 50% of the computers in schools here in the USA, and Project Fi for phones combines cellular data with access to public wifi protected by a VPN and encryption. A lot of people spend 90% of their time at home or at work with Wifi all around, and in major cities it is possible to find it in many public places. There are a lot of people who use phones mainly or solely on wifi. It is already possible to do so. Are there big hurdles, yes! Is the situation different in different countries, yes! But, I bet someday we will look back and think of computers and phones with local apps as the "good old days."
    Chromebooks are 50% because they're cheap and Google probably gave them a good price as well. Cost means a lot to schools and Chromebooks are 'good enough'.

    I also didn't say it wouldn't happen, I'm just suggesting it's a long way off. Very long. WP started with the idea of cloud computing at it's core and W10 is basically 100% internet connected, something a lot of people don't like. We're a long way off from trusting companies with our data in the cloud and using cloud based apps continuously.

    The main drawbacks for cloud is access. Without that, cloud computing, unless there's some sort of local storage, is useless without a connection to the internet. Mobile data is highly unreliable and WiFi is in many countries still something that you struggle to find with a secure connection. Not everyone knows what a VPN is.

    There are many hurdles as you mentioned but if you're viewing things from a US centric view then you're not fully understanding how far off the rest of the world really is and how knowledgeable the average user is. That's why apps are popular. They're easy.
    Laura Knotek and Guytronic like this.
    03-17-2016 08:58 AM
  12. chasvs's Avatar
    You are definitely not alone. I bought a Lumia 900 on launch day and stayed with WP until it became obvious that there wouldn't be any WP flagships for a while. I spent a year with a Note 4 and iPhone 6+ and then got a Note 5 when it was released. About 6 weeks ago I decided to give W10M a try so I bought a 950, then a 1520 and also a M8. Today I am buying a iPhone 6s Plus and selling the 1520 and M8 (the 950 is already gone). Windows 10 Mobile and the available hardware to run it just isn't as good as iOS or Android. It's just as simple as that.
    That is similar to my experience. From the HTC Trophy and Win Phone 7 I was an enthusiast after leaving Blackberry. Then on to the 822, 928, and finally the Icon. Love Cortana and the Live tiles but felt betrayed when the 950 & 950XL didn't come out on Verizon. So now I'm using an iPhone 6s+ and finding it very nice indeed. I kept my Icon and keep t eh latest Win10M version on it and even change my device on Verizon to use the Icon once in a while to see how things are progressing. Sadly, I keep switching back after a day or two as I find myself limited by some of the apps that are MISSING that are important to me, and WebPage shortcuts just don't meet my needs. I keep hoping for the next release and device to be the one that let's me return to the Windows Mobile fold, but my faith is growing weaker by the Month! If the "Surface Phone" or similar Flagship device shows up this year and the apps get better I may be back. But if that doesn't happen in 2016 I'm probably gone for good!
    03-17-2016 09:00 AM
  13. Ten Four's Avatar
    03-17-2016 09:14 AM
  14. dlalonde's Avatar
    MSFT can't even get Facebook to write an official app for W10M. They had to write there own since no mobile platform can exist in 2016 without a FB app.
    That's actually half true. A lot of apps deemed 'official' are not made by the company themselves but 3rd party devs from whom the companies buy or promote as their official app. So the Facebook WP app, while it's openly made by Microsoft, isn't that different from other companies.

    That being said, there's a Windows 10 app in the making and I believe it's made by Facebook. I've been invited to install the beta from Facebook a couple of months ago.
    03-17-2016 09:24 AM
  15. Ten Four's Avatar
    Just quit Facebook--you'll have a better and longer life.
    thelegendarcy likes this.
    03-17-2016 09:29 AM
  16. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    Oddly enough you just provided me with my point. Since my company has an ad blocker installed I can't even read the article. :P

    They'll be obsolete when and only when there is reliable internet. Maybe that will happen first in the US (so long as they don't start a nuclear war with anyone with Trump as pres.) but until that happens apps are where it will be.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-17-2016 09:30 AM
  17. Ten Four's Avatar
    They'll be obsolete when and only when there is reliable internet. Maybe that will happen first in the US (so long as they don't start a nuclear war with anyone with Trump as pres.) but until that happens apps are where it will be.
    Lots of articles are out there. Just Google or Bing up "apps are obsolete." The big players are doing lots of work on this. Think of something like Cortana where you just say "pay Starbucks $4.76" and you're done instead of opening an app.
    03-17-2016 09:40 AM
  18. Sonic98's Avatar
    This hasn't been too much of a problem for me. I don't use Twitter much, but the WP app works fine for me. I find the Facebook app to be terrible on any platform I use it on. I do hate the fact that Instagram was without DM for a long time. I don't use SnapChat, but a lot of people do. Some of the social networking and dating apps do need an update. I don't have an app for one of my banks, but it hasn't been a terrible problem. There are food apps missing, but I always end up finding my way to a computer anyway. The app situation definitely needs to be improved , and Microsoft needs to partner more with people who understand today's buyers and young people, but its not enough to make me jump.
    03-17-2016 10:04 AM
  19. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I think the worst example of needing an app for everything was the time my wife wanted to print off a quick photo at a photo kiosk in Walmart.

    I remember a while back you could simply Bluetooth the photo across to the kiosk. It had been a while since we'd done this so when I tried to do the same with my Lumia 640, I found it would not let me do anything at all until I downloaded their app first and of course it was iOS and Android only.

    I guess somewhere along the line they decided even Bluetooth was too complicated for customers to use without an app doing it for them.

    Of course I could've just inserted the memory card but that involves dismantling my phone and so again loses the convenience factor.
    The difference there is the convenience factor. One is able to order prints from anywhere, which will be ready in about an hour. Then the person is able to just pick up the prints, pay for them, and leave. Waiting is eliminated.
    Guytronic likes this.
    03-17-2016 10:08 AM
  20. Sonic98's Avatar
    You know, there's a comment that drives me more nuts than anything I've read on this forum, it goes something like this:

    "I have all the apps I want and I'm happy. Don't see what the fuss is all about"

    This irritates me more than anything. That's not the point. I'm glad 'you're happy' but I don't really care. Call it personal opinion if you want but you're being happy isn't brining more people the platform nor helping the situation. If W10M is going to go anywhere it needs to be liked by more than some small group going 'we're happy like this'.

    Let's face it, W10M users are a small group comparatively, which is why there's an app issue in the first place. Regardless of the image problem that MS has. Let's ignore the W10 universal thing at the moment as that hasn't been proven to be a successful project yet.

    What I agree totally with the OP is this. Regardless how nice W10M is looks, it doesn't make up for it with the lack of things. Ever since I've been using Android I haven't been bothered by the idea of not having an app available or functionality available. There's no inconvenience. This is what people don't seem to get on W10M for some reason.

    Sure I know there's mobile sites but some are not that good and others can be limited so apps are better for the most part until everyone catches up on the idea of good mobile sites.

    It's about choice, for some reason, choice seems to be a problem for some people on W10M. I like choice. I like options. This is what is lacking and keeps me from coming back to W10M. Until that changes I'm quite happy to stay on Android.

    But everyone has different app needs. Just as you feel it's unfair for people to say "I have the apps I need," it's also unfair for people to steer people away from WP because of a particular app they want. It's just like people who keep trying to keep others away from Windows 8. The first thing you have to do is find out what a person's needs are. There will always be some app or another that's missing or not the same from another platform. It's not fair to just make the blanket statement "Windows Phone doesn't have any apps." WP has a lot of apps, and more are being added every day. It's up to an individual to see if it's missing some "must have" app
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-17-2016 10:09 AM
  21. Sonic98's Avatar
    You know, there's a comment that drives me more nuts than anything I've read on this forum, it goes something like this:

    "I have all the apps I want and I'm happy. Don't see what the fuss is all about"

    This irritates me more than anything. That's not the point. I'm glad 'you're happy' but I don't really care. Call it personal opinion if you want but you're being happy isn't brining more people the platform nor helping the situation. If W10M is going to go anywhere it needs to be liked by more than some small group going 'we're happy like this'.

    Let's face it, W10M users are a small group comparatively, which is why there's an app issue in the first place. Regardless of the image problem that MS has. Let's ignore the W10 universal thing at the moment as that hasn't been proven to be a successful project yet.

    What I agree totally with the OP is this. Regardless how nice W10M is looks, it doesn't make up for it with the lack of things. Ever since I've been using Android I haven't been bothered by the idea of not having an app available or functionality available. There's no inconvenience. This is what people don't seem to get on W10M for some reason.

    Sure I know there's mobile sites but some are not that good and others can be limited so apps are better for the most part until everyone catches up on the idea of good mobile sites.

    It's about choice, for some reason, choice seems to be a problem for some people on W10M. I like choice. I like options. This is what is lacking and keeps me from coming back to W10M. Until that changes I'm quite happy to stay on Android.
    I also have to add that I hate when people criticize others who say something works just fine for me. Of course they shouldn't be attacking people who it doesn't work for, but on a lot of Microsoft-related sites, I notice that its almost like a cardinal sin to say something works fine for you. You have this entire collection of I would assume trolls, who label anyone as a Microsoft Fanboy who isn't constantly complaining about one Microsoft product or another.
    03-17-2016 10:13 AM
  22. dlalonde's Avatar
    App WILL be obsolete. There's no question about that. I'm a web programmer and the way things are going, apps are going to be useless soon enough. Until then it's an important factor to a lot of people. But Web Apps are becoming so powerful that it will definitely happen. For a lot of apps currently on the market, the only advantage to having a proper app is push notifications and even that is coming (go to Facebook or the Web version of Skype on Chrome, it's already happening there). Companies are working for apps to become useless. Imaging the advantages! Just one product to maintain versus 3-4, one place for stats and all their other telemetrics. It's the way of the future. It's just not coming fast enough.
    N_LaRUE and Guytronic like this.
    03-17-2016 10:15 AM
  23. anon(6078578)'s Avatar
    The difference there is the convenience factor. One is able to order prints from anywhere, which will be ready in about an hour. Then the person is able to just pick up the prints, pay for them, and leave. Waiting is eliminated.
    Yes but this was an app you needed to use to even connect to it. You couldn't even use the usb lead to connect to a windows phone as a storage device to select the photos. If you need an app at that point then why bother since you may as well upload them directly to Walmart and collect later as you say.

    The ability to be able to just quickly print a photo for someone adhoc while out somewhere has gone if you're a Windows Phone user.
    Guytronic likes this.
    03-17-2016 10:20 AM
  24. elitewolverine21's Avatar
    I miss WP... I want back in... but I'm done making all the efforts...
    I remember fondly when android was first on the scene and people had to do this or that work around, they felt empowered. Then apps became king. I still remember trying to explain to a pc user why they couldn't use the web to visit a website and why they needed an app instead. Quite the comedy explaining they had to build an entire new system to do something they did online, like say...a bank app.

    Of course apps have come a long way, from games, to features that html cant do etc. Working for a carrier about only 30% of the people I deal with absolutely need one ecosystem over another. And even then that would be a maybe. Reading this whole thread, I find that it comes down to one thing, convenience, hit it right on the head. Local store apps etc, those are the little things that make going to WP a work around.

    As for your list. Lets think about what your wanting and what is offered. Again Android lovers always talk about the tinkering the 50 apps for one task to choose from. So if WP has this, like 6tag instead of instagram, this is all of a sudden a bad thing in WP, it was 3rd party apps on Android that forced first party apps to step up its game. So I don't see how android gets a pass here and WP doesn't. MS cannot make a dev support a feature, MS cannot make Instagram do anything. So this entire app thing while is in MS court, it is only partially them.

    Facebook the beta is great, barely if at all crashes, again just like on Android 'options'
    Instagram - 6tag
    Twitter - other apps as well just like android
    LinkedIn - Website or app
    Emails...website allows this

    Does WP need work? of course, it needs apps, it needs lots of things. But I am on the side of the only way it gets that is by user input. I rather walk around with 2 phones than rely on android as being my only device, my wife is in information security job number one target device for this is android, and its a billion dollar business, this alone will always delegate android as a second tier device for me no matter how neat the OS gets. I have never gotten a virus on my android, but it is what it is. I rather deal with oddities than dive in for convenience sake, and yes my job requires android for certain tasks.

    I don't use Clash of Clans, but damn right I want it, not for me but others. I don't use our local grocer app, but I want it. I want the stores that do make a WP app to advertise it, my mother had no idea walgreens had an app for WP, because they didn't advertise it here.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-17-2016 10:47 AM
  25. N_LaRUE's Avatar
    I also have to add that I hate when people criticize others who say something works just fine for me. Of course they shouldn't be attacking people who it doesn't work for, but on a lot of Microsoft-related sites, I notice that its almost like a cardinal sin to say something works fine for you. You have this entire collection of I would assume trolls, who label anyone as a Microsoft Fanboy who isn't constantly complaining about one Microsoft product or another.
    I already explained myself in regards to this. To give you the short of it because you obviously haven't read the rest of the thread. I am definitely not a troll.

    I was referring to discussion and not about people in general. If you're happy, great. If you're not, great. My point is about discussion on a topic and providing something to it other than personal statements. That is all.

    I apologise that some people can't seem to get that and only see the first couple of line of my post and decide they need to chastise me but if you actually read the rest of it you'd realise that my point is about discussion and not about me telling people off or to stop them from doing it.

    I just personally find that it ends discussion and adds nothing.
    03-17-2016 10:56 AM
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