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03-25-2016 01:42 PM
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  1. Great deal's Avatar
    Was reading through the thread and a name popped into my head.... Microscuse <<< lets push them for a rebrand - sums them up for the recent BS they shovelling. I just want to line all of the employees up in a line...run down it hand stretched out, not for high fives, more like free slaps!

    Just 2 days ago I saw a tweet from Rudy Huyn blasting MS for a store issue. I dont know what Satya is doing. Either your ALL IN with Windows Phone (Mobile, whatever) or not...seems they are half *** about this..pretty much no marketing, no real meaty plan revealed.

    Mobile first, Cloud first - Both are nowhere.
    Kram Sacul likes this.
    03-24-2016 04:14 PM
  2. AgentTheGreat's Avatar
    It's not about being good enough for me. I just put the actual fact out there that it was 4 instead of 5.

    Also, go read actual user experiences of the iPad 2 running iOS9, even iOS8. Some users have said that upgrading their devices to certain versions made their devices unusable. Each use case is different.
    What you are forgetting here is that you can run an older iOS version and still have access to the wealth of apps that exist on that platform. I am now sure that my 1320 is dead, meaning there will come a time in near future that I can't use Telegram on it. Same happened with Surface RT and Surface 2: No Windows 10 apps for those devices and so a deserted Windows 8.1 store is all what they get. This doesn't happen to iPhones and iPads.
    03-24-2016 04:38 PM
  3. Zybch's Avatar
    You can't just stick the insider app on and get 10 that way? Its pretty much the final code anyway.
    03-24-2016 04:48 PM
  4. anirudhgarikipati's Avatar
    There is also the issue of what device is available in the market. For example, Verizon only offers the HTC One m8 on windows. They used to offer the Lumia 735 at some point, but when I went to get a new phone, they sales lady told me that the network doesn't support Lumias well, and there is a network issue that could render the phone useless. So i got the much more expensive HTC. I love the phone, its spectacularly light and feature packed.
    I also own a Lumia 920, which was made in a different region.

    If mobile networks are only offering specific phones, then it makes no sense for Microsoft not to provide upgrades for those. They are basically telling their current users to spend more money on a phone, or move networks if they want to use W10. I realize there is a cost associated with testing phones with networks, but doesn't making sure a phone works with a network better for reaching a bigger customer base?
    groady-ho baluzy likes this.
    03-24-2016 05:12 PM
  5. groady-ho baluzy's Avatar
    There is also the issue of what device is available in the market. For example, Verizon only offers the HTC One m8 on windows. They used to offer the Lumia 735 at some point, but when I went to get a new phone, they sales lady told me that the network doesn't support Lumias well, and there is a network issue that could render the phone useless. So i got the much more expensive HTC. I love the phone, its spectacularly light and feature packed.
    I also own a Lumia 920, which was made in a different region.

    If mobile networks are only offering specific phones, then it makes no sense for Microsoft not to provide upgrades for those. They are basically telling their current users to spend more money on a phone, or move networks if they want to use W10. I realize there is a cost associated with testing phones with networks, but doesn't making sure a phone works with a network better for reaching a bigger customer base?
    I have a 735 on Verizon for the past year, no issues, decent phone. Got HD voice or whatever its called, premium visual voice mail, everything works well on Verizon.
    Not doubting you at all, Verizon kinda sucks.
    Last edited by groady-ho baluzy; 03-24-2016 at 10:04 PM.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-24-2016 05:28 PM
  6. Dush Ku's Avatar
    The way things look now I'd rather keep WP 8.1 for as long as I can
    Kram Sacul and Greg Wenzler like this.
    03-24-2016 05:51 PM
  7. Yaw Agyei's Avatar
    Running a Lumia 640 currently, I'm not directly affected by Microsoft's decision to only support newer devices. That said, I do have my old 925 running the preview that I have as a backup phone (and also a 635 that I picked up cheap a while back as my initial device for running early Insider Preview builds.) So I would like it if those were officially upgradeable to extend their useful lives as backup devices.

    But I have to agree that Microsoft's messaging has been poor. From the beginning they should have made it clear that they were going to provide Insider builds for as many phones as possible and as W10M progressed, they'd incorporate feedback from that to decide which phones would ultimately get the official update. Even when they announced the final phones, they did it poorly in my opinion, leaving off the Icon, killing the idea of a 2nd wave, and then when questioned stating that they were still looking into it. Couldn't they just state something like at this point we're launching W10M officially for the following phones; we're still evaluating an eventual official release for the Icon (or for certain other phones if any others still have a chance.) The way they did it, it looked like they were waffling on their plans.

    The other thing is I wonder - assuming Microsoft's stated reasoning about how they chose to cut phones based on insider feedback is accurate - how much divergence was there in expectations between the "insiders" and the Windows 10 team. I mean, if an insider voted that they wouldn't recommend a build because it was significantly slower than Windows 8.1, would they have voted the same way if they realized that it would possibly mean not getting an official update at all? (I assume that insiders were expecting Microsoft to keep optimizing W10M based on feedback....)

    Would Windows Phone users rather have a compromised experience, but be able to run the latest apps written to the current SDKs? Here's an experience of mine from the Apple side of the fence. I have an iPad 2. Not an iPad Air 2, the old iPad 2. I picked it up on a deal when the iPad 3 launched; it was before the original Surface came out, maybe Spring 2012? Anyway, unlike the 1st gen iPad, the iPad 2 is still getting iOS updates and runs the latest version (v9.2.1 currently). However, it's gotten really slow with more recent versions of iOS, and Safari in particular seems a bit crashy, probably due to the small memory. Nowadays I don't use it for much of anything other than a way to keep my toe in the iOS waters, and also to run apps that aren't available on Windows Phone. Although I also now have an Android phone I switch between with my 640, so even that's less frequent. But anyway, if Apple asked me if I'd recommend running iOS 9.X on the iPad (or even iOS 8.x for that matter), and I was just comparing the experience from when I first got it running earlier versions, I'd have said no. But that also would have made it much less useful as a device now.
    I couldn't agree with you more. I raised similar issues on twitter but Daniel Rubino seems not to agree. I feel he is sometimes biased towards Microsoft than assuming the neutral referee position. Microsoft used honest insider feedback to turn against insiders. Insiders gave honest feedback thinking Microsoft was going to use them to make the OS better. What do you expect me as an insider to say when asked the usual "how likely are you going to recommend this version of windows" knowing very well there a lot of inconsistencies in the UI (transition from people app to contact details), when windows 10 mobile has one of the worst dialers, when messaging app taking forever to open, when there is no wide availability of the ability of assigning manual IPs to Wifi networks. Most insiders think (and they're right to think cos Microsoft cannot cease making promises they cannot keep) Windows 10 mobile was supposed to make things better, bring improved features. So they wholeheartedly gave honest opinions but they were let down.

    I don't like android and the only thing keep me from IOS is it's CLOSED nature. I can't live with a CLOSED system so I am stuck on windows phone. Microsoft some of us want to see you make Windows 10 mobile an OS worth loving. Get your act together
    03-24-2016 06:41 PM
  8. AgentTheGreat's Avatar
    I know this will not be a direct comparison, but it just occurred to me...and I'm on the side I agree with Microsoft's decision, my 1020 did not run even the most recent build of 10 to an acceptable quality, but here is my thought:

    Microsoft says the product is not good enough to release to our standards, so we won't release it, and the internet explodes in anger...

    Someone like Blizzard for gaming says we're cancelling a game (Titan) that we've been developing for years because it's just not good enough, and for the most part the internet gives a silent thumbs up for sticking to their guns on quality and not releasing a sub-par experience.

    Just a funny comparison, as it's all a matter of perspective.
    Not only funny, but irrelevant. If Blizzard first promised you the Titan game when they sold you the hardware, and created the illusion that your hardware won't get obsolete without Titan running it, then it could become a relevant comparison.

    "Microsoft says the product is not good enough to release to our standards..."
    Microsoft said they will release a good enough upgrade for your device...while they didn't release any major upgrades for years. So the fact that the product is not good enough is their fault, not those who gave their honest opinion about the software not being good enough! How do people just skip over this obvious fact?!

    Comparing the mere idea of a single game for which you haven't paid anything to an operating system, the lack of which makes your paid device obsolete (when you were promised that wouldn't happen) is only funny because it's so wrong and irrelevant.
    03-24-2016 06:50 PM
  9. Sick Freak's Avatar
    Look at the date of that tweet 2014 that is before the feedback of th poor performance of the insiders builds kn S4 based hardware.

    Wake up people S4 based phones are not up to running Windows 10 Mobile.

    That is not Microsoft's fault the old phones are past there best and you need t ok move to new hardware to get the full benefit out of Windows 10 Mobile.

    Same thing with the desktops I run a Core 2 Quad desktop that supported Virtualization under Windows 8.1 but now under 10 you need a Core I processor.

    So I bought a Core i7 desktop to support virtualization in Windows 10.
    They were also making that promise just a few months ago. It was on their web store and I was personally told last holiday season (< 4 months ago) at a Microsoft retail store that the phones were eligible for upgrade - which is why some people I know purchased phones that MSFT now refuses to officially upgrade.

    In this case, MSFT controls the hardware as well as the software. Of course, we all understand the limitations of old hardware - that's not the complaint. The complaint is ethics. Microsoft repeatedly made the promise and chose not to keep it. If they wouldn't have made the promise, then that's a completely different story. And, of course, notice how they didn't notify anyone of breaking their promise until they the official release?

    When I make a promise, I keep it, even if it's hard. Otherwise, people wouldn't trust me. It amazes me how many people try to justify unethical behavior as acceptable business practices.
    03-24-2016 09:23 PM
  10. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    The way things look now I'd rather keep WP 8.1 for as long as I can
    Yep. Besides a few resuming screens and some dumb decisions (games in app list, less hubs, etc) I'm been satisfied with 8.1. I wish MS cared about as much as I do but that's another story.

    All this talk about cheating Lumia users out of W10M... Yeah, a big loss there. I'm missing out on a crappy browser, hamburger menus, a dumbed down design language and wannabe iOS transparency effects. Oh, and bugs. My 640, 820 and 920 are really missing out on that fun.
    Last edited by Kram Sacul; 03-25-2016 at 05:19 AM.
    03-24-2016 10:10 PM
  11. Hans Swolfs's Avatar
    so now Microsoft is getting hammered for not living up to their promises... If they would have released it to those phones, they'd be hammered for delivering an OS that's crap because it doesn't run "buttery smooth"... People will always find something to b1tch about on Microsoft.

    To be clear : I agree on the part that Microsoft had issues on the communication part during the whole Insider Program and that they shouldn't have actually made the bold promise that Windows 10 Mobile would come to all Lumias...

    But again, what would you rather have : Windows Phone 8.1 running decent on your phone or a crippled version of Windows 10 mobile where features were removed because of the phone hardware?

    Then to all people talking about moving to Android or iOS : getting updates on Android phones is just as rare as the Loch Ness monster (see this thread on Android Central) and if you want to go to iOS, good luck finding a phone sub 300 € (don't bother looking, I just checked the Apple website and the cheapest is the 6 SE at 489 €). So no, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

    Also people : it's just a phone. The quality of life won't degrade if you don't get Windows 10 Mobile. If you do want it, get a new phone.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    03-25-2016 03:05 AM
  12. harihar akhil's Avatar
    Then to all people talking about moving to Android or iOS : getting updates on Android phones is just as rare as the Loch Ness monster (see this thread on Android Central)
    But every version of android have access to latest google play store and also apps* which isn't the case with abandoned and crippled( Xbox music) apps by msft and other publishers in windows store.
    03-25-2016 03:28 AM
  13. Hans Swolfs's Avatar
    But every version of android have access to latest google play store and also apps* which isn't the case with abandoned and crippled( Xbox music) apps by msft and other publishers in windows store.
    having acces to the Play Store : yes, getting all apps : hell no... A lot of apps require certain versions of Android to run so forget about that...
    03-25-2016 03:45 AM
  14. Kubanarin's Avatar
    Within reason it is correct though that most android phones that are in the same age group as wp8 will run most apps for the next couple of years.
    03-25-2016 04:03 AM
  15. harihar akhil's Avatar
    having acces to the Play Store : yes, getting all apps : hell no... A lot of apps require certain versions of Android to run so forget about that...
    Did not you notice * mark.
    03-25-2016 04:23 AM
  16. Hans Swolfs's Avatar
    Within reason it is correct though that most android phones that are in the same age group as wp8 will run most apps for the next couple of years.
    ok, then how about getting new OS updates with new features on those phones? Get a 100 € Android phone and see how many updates (not even talking entire new OS) it'll get.

    For what a nice Windows Phone now costs, I really think people shouldn't be complaining about not getting the update...
    Lumia 640 : 179 €
    Lumia 550 : 189 €
    Lumia 535 : 119 €
    Lumia 435 : 79 €
    03-25-2016 04:24 AM
  17. Hans Swolfs's Avatar
    Did not you notice * mark.
    yes I noticed and mostly under an article the * gets explanation ;)
    I really think if you take a 3 or even 2 year old Android phone with still 4.4 on (and this is reality), you'll get a lot of apps that just won't work or cripled as you put it...
    03-25-2016 04:30 AM
  18. Paul1266's Avatar
    "Reason" with me then.
    There is no reasoning with you my friend. You just bulldoze past contrary evidence, dismissing it without consideration - you are like the terminator (just wrong). I do admire your unshakeable confidence in your own conviction. You're still wrong though. Your constant references to 'fanboy' are tiresome and lazy though, in fact it's a boring clich.
    03-25-2016 04:36 AM
  19. Kubanarin's Avatar
    ok, then how about getting new OS updates with new features on those phones? Get a 100 € Android phone and see how many updates (not even talking entire new OS) it'll get.

    For what a nice Windows Phone now costs, I really think people shouldn't be complaining about not getting the update...
    Lumia 640 : 179 €
    Lumia 550 : 189 €
    Lumia 535 : 119 €
    Lumia 435 : 79 €
    You do realise that the OS updates don't really matter that much when the apps still work?

    Microsoft pulls the plug on the whole platform every couple of years despite their clear promises.

    There are two obvious facets to this problem with Microsofts behaviour.

    One is that the promised feature update in the form of an OS update is not delivered. The second and much bigger one in my opinion is the straight killing of the 8/8.1 platform where apps will stop working and no new apps will be published.

    No need to play word games by saying that developers can still develop for 8/8.1 as we all know that won't happen and no sane developer will maintain on a small dead platform.
    03-25-2016 04:41 AM
  20. Kubanarin's Avatar
    There is no reasoning with you my friend. You just bulldoze past contrary evidence, dismissing it without consideration - you are like the terminator (just wrong). I do admire your unshakeable confidence in your own conviction. You're still wrong though. Your constant references to 'fanboy' are tiresome and lazy though, in fact it's a boring clich.
    You have served up exactly zero actual evidence so I am not sure where you're going with your post. Maybe it's just that his opinions bother you and your world view. Perhaps you're just afraid that he might be right and you would rather he kept quiet about it.
    03-25-2016 04:49 AM
  21. John20212's Avatar
    I am surprised this thread has gone on for so long, with so many delusional fanboys trying to defend lies and unethical business practices by Microsoft.

    It's this simple:

    Microsoft promised all WP8.1 devices will be upgraded to W10M.


    Microsoft broke that promise.

    Microsoft blamed the insiders on their decision to break the promise.

    Fanboys and biased publications trying to justify Microsoft's lies by spewing further lies and excuses.

    The End.
    eryvile, theefman and Sick Freak like this.
    03-25-2016 05:41 AM
  22. Hans Swolfs's Avatar
    One is that the promised feature update in the form of an OS update is not delivered. The second and much bigger one in my opinion is the straight killing of the 8/8.1 platform where apps will stop working and no new apps will be published.

    No need to play word games by saying that developers can still develop for 8/8.1 as we all know that won't happen and no sane developer will maintain on a small dead platform.
    where did you read the apps would just stop working? OK, no new ones will be released as devs are shifting to the UWP platform that makes the Windows 10 ecosystem nice...

    And I do know devs won't make new app for Windows Phone 8.1 anymore but again, look at the prices of the list of supported phones you can buy now... Tech gets old and sometimes it's time to move on to a new phone.
    03-25-2016 05:50 AM
  23. Hans Swolfs's Avatar
    I am surprised this thread has gone on for so long, with so many delusional fanboys trying to defend lies and unethical business practices by Microsoft.

    It's this simple:

    Microsoft promised all WP8.1 devices will be upgraded to W10M.


    Microsoft broke that promise.

    Microsoft blamed the insiders on their decision to break the promise.

    Fanboys and biased publications trying to justify Microsoft's lies by spewing further lies and excuses.

    The End.
    if they are such liars, breaking all promises and stuff, what are you still doing here? Move to Android Central or iMore and see if other platforms are holy and fulfill everything they promise.
    "We fanboys" just try to put these decisions into perpective instead of keep whining and hammering about this topic.

    Do you now feel better? Do you think MSFT will now reconsider their decision? No, they won't so either you take it or you buy another phone. The end.
    DeNachtwacht likes this.
    03-25-2016 05:58 AM
  24. AgentTheGreat's Avatar
    There is no reasoning with you my friend. You just bulldoze past contrary evidence, dismissing it without consideration - you are like the terminator (just wrong). I do admire your unshakeable confidence in your own conviction. You're still wrong though. Your constant references to 'fanboy' are tiresome and lazy though, in fact it's a boring clich.
    I'll await the "evidence" because I haven't seen any.

    Evidence of what exactly anyway?
    • Were people led to believe their devices will be updated to Windows 10? Yes.
    • Were they holding out for a long time so they can finally see their devices on par - feature wise - with other platforms? Sure.
    • Had they received any real major updates compared to other platforms in the long period they were waiting? Of course not.
    • Haven't they been through this with Windiws RT and Windows Phone 7? They have.
    • Isn't the broken promise going to make their entire hardware obsolete because the WP 8.1 Store is going to be obsolete? Obviously.
    • Weren't they told that WP 8 and Windows 8 now have a unified core and so they believed their OS is unlikely to be declared dead? You tell me.
    • Is people giving negative feedback on how bad the software is a sign that the software needs to get better, or an excuse for the company to bail on users? Are you kidding me?!


    Even Daniel merely cites the financials of the operation as the excuse for Microsoft betraying the user base saying "you know, they had to betray people" (interestingly calling us obsolete audience) and he is more or less a fan of Microsoft. You go anything beyond that - denying the betrayal itself - and you are obviously a fanboy.

    But hey, I'll wait for the "evidence". Clearly list the evidence, and I'll respond to each one of them...one by one.
    Last edited by AgentTheGreat; 03-25-2016 at 06:17 AM.
    John20212 likes this.
    03-25-2016 06:04 AM
  25. AgentTheGreat's Avatar
    if they are such liars, breaking all promises and stuff, what are you still doing here? Move to Android Central or iMore and see if other platforms are holy and fulfill everything they promise.
    "We fanboys" just try to put these decisions into perpective instead of keep whining and hammering about this topic.

    Do you now feel better? Do you think MSFT will now reconsider their decision? No, they won't so either you take it or you buy another phone. The end.
    Don't worry. People are already gone. And soon enough we will leave the 12 of you to enjoy the beloved half OS.
    The thread is called "Microsoft cheated Lumia users". If you don't think that, what are you doing here?
    John20212 likes this.
    03-25-2016 06:07 AM
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