Microsoft: Windows Phone isn't our focus this year!

[a5cent]

Hey jdballard. Yeah, /build is a developer focused conference, where that view makes most sense. We're on the same page. Just a quick note on another often misunderstood technology, which WCentral has also often reported on poorly:

I know MS would love to find a way to flip it so that 99% of apps don't use the Win32 API's, hence project Centennial. Whether that works or not? Time will tell)

Project Centennial doesn't change anything about the APIs used by Win32 software. If every single Win32 app in the world was given the "Project Centennial" treatment today, there would be no change to the number of apps using Win32... it would still be 99%

Project Centennial changes only how Win32 apps are installed, and prepares them for distribution through the Windows store (a cynic would say: "so MS can take their 30% cut"). Nothing more.

 

[jdballard]

What is not clear to me is the Xamarian (or whatever it's called) coding tool. Is it designed to help Mac/Android developers make W10 apps or is it designed so Windows developers can leverage their wares on Apple/Android stores? I think the hope is that all this cross pollination will help W10 apps and somewhere in the distant future W10m will benefit. But MS did themselves no favor in saying W10m is not a focus. It tells me and consumers that it is a dead end product. And you are certainly not going to get any more carriers to handle W10m phones.

I've never used it, so take this with a grain of salt. The idea of Xamarin is that a developer can build an app using the Xamarin tools, which sit on top of the C# language, and allows the developer to build an app that when compiled, runs natively on iOS, Android and Windows with minimal changes to accommodate for each environment. The theory is that it allows you to write once, run anywhere in the way that Java was supposed to years ago.The big difference, though, is that Java required you to install the Java runtime on any machine that you wanted your Java app to run but, the Xamarin tools use the native OS libraries, so you don't need a special runtime - it will just run as is.

It's designed to try and lure developers by making it easy to create a single app for three platforms at once - the hope being it will bring apps to Windows (desktop and mobile). If the tools work and they can convince developers it's worth the learning curve, it may just work. Microsoft does have world class developer tools, so the opportunity is there.

That's it as I understand it. Hopefully that makes sense. If not, I can try and clarify. And for anyone that's used it, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or add more.

 

[jdballard]

Project Centennial changes only how Win32 apps are installed, and prepares them for distribution through the Windows store (a cynic would say: "so MS can take their 30% cut"). Nothing more.

So it doesn't actually translate the API's into the RT APIs? Interesting. Have looked into any of it deep enough, so not really aware of the details.

 

[a5cent]

So it doesn't actually translate the API's into the RT APIs? Interesting. Have looked into any of it deep enough, so not really aware of the details.

Nope. Nothing of the sort, although WCentral occasional portrays it as such. Due to the differences that wouldn't even be possible. There is no 1:1 mapping due to the very different feature set.

https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2015/2-692

 

[tgp]

In it's most extreme and purist form (known as Xamarin.Forms) it allows developers to create an app with a single C# code base that runs on iOS, Android and WM. You can think of this as the truly universal app platform. A single app that runs on multiple form factors and OSes. However, many developers find this approach to be somewhat finicky and not suited to apps that must be lean, mean and fast. This luxury costs run time performance, often times notably so. Most developers would say Xamarin.Forms is suited to projects where developer performance (how fast they can crank out apps for multiple platforms and how cheaply they can maintain them) is far more important than app run-time performance.

I'm not a developer so I do not understand everything, but I do understand the concept of developing to some extent. (I work with developers and catch some of what is going on). Is your statement here saying that an app created in Xamarin would be bloated? It seems to me that extra code would be necessary to make is suitable for all the platforms it runs on. Or, an Android app written in C# would not run as well on Android as one written (natively) in Java.

 

[Paolo Ferrazza]

I very much disagree. Either it's the same or it isn't. There is nothing to be gained, in this thread or in any other thread, by claiming these two OSes are something they are not. The only thing it achieves is the propagation of misinformation, which benefits nobody, not even MS who started the whole thing.

The only time this view makes sense is when two people discuss UWP related software development issues. It doesn't make sense for anyone else, because outside of that developer circle differences do exist that can't be ignored, and desperately trying to ignore it (for whatever reason) confuses more people than it helps.

Mmmm let me disagree, or actually I agree but the point is that everything they are focusing on is UWP related, this thread is about "Microsoft: Windows Phone isn't our focus this year", if they don't focus on Windows Mobile to focus on something that is UWP (as they are, everything at build was UWP related or web or multiplatform, no legacy!!) and if, as you admitted, UWP is what is shared and "equal" between the two OS, stating that since they are equal the lost focus on mobile isn't actually a lost focus is correct. I don't think anyone is saying they are equal per se, they can be considered equal when discussing of this and other matters, like you admitted.

Politicians are we?

 

[Paolo Ferrazza]

I'm not a developer so I do not understand everything, but I do understand the concept of developing to some extent. (I work with developers and catch some of what is going on). Is your statement here saying that an app created in Xamarin would be bloated? It seems to me that extra code would be necessary to make is suitable for all the platforms it runs on. Or, an Android app written in C# would not run as well on Android as one written (natively) in Java.

The magic of xamarin is that it produces native code for all the platforms, you can see it as a black box in which you put a single codebase and it output native code for all the platforms. The only thing that you MAY WANT TO customize is the user experience if you want to improve it on a specific platform (remove on screen buttons for the platforms that already have them at OS level, add live tiles only for windows and so on).

 

[a5cent]

Is your statement here saying that an app created in Xamarin would be bloated? It seems to me that extra code would be necessary to make is suitable for all the platforms it runs on. Or, an Android app written in C# would not run as well on Android as one written (natively) in Java.

Starting to feel bad here, but I'm going to disagree with Paolo again (sorry buddy):

First some terminology: I disagree with the idea that Java or C# software can ever be native software. The whole point of Java or .NET is to not be native.

The term "native" was hijacked during the last decade to mean pretty much whatever a tool or technology vendor wants it to mean, but I prefer the original definition where "native" means the binary code comprising the software is executed directly on the CPU without any intermediate virtualization/run-time/management layers. The java virtual machine and the .NET CLR (common language run-time) are precisely such intermediate layers. Their purpose is to abstract away the differences between different operating systems and/or hardware (CPUs) and provide additional run-time support services (automating memory management being one example) to make software development easier (requiring less expertise) and less error prone.

Using that definition of the term "native", Xamarin apps are not native. Xamarin apps can not run directly on a CPU and require an intermediate .NET CLR. You can think of the CLR as a little virtual machine, which comes pre-installed on WM, but must be installed along with the app on Android or iOS. Being an Android user you might have heard of Dalvik or ART. It would be akin to having to install and run a separate Dalvik or ART instance alongside each WM app.

On a high end device, initializing the CLR requires about two seconds longer to launch, compared to a similar app that doesn't use Xamarin. Such a Xamarin app also requires a lot more memory because we're hosting a separate CLR instance for every Xamarin app which otherwise isn't necessary. Then comes the extra code you mention that sits between the Xamarin app and the OS. For an iOS app the differences are even more pronounced, because in contrast to Android, iOS apps truly are native apps without any intermediate layers whatsoever.

Xamarin definitely introduces a lot of overhead (a.k.a. bloat). How much of an impact it has on the UX depends very much on the type of app however.

 

[rromerof]

So, I just read this article on Verge and thought of sharing with you guys. This is a really big disappointment.

Microsoft is making it ever more harder to stick with Windows Mobile. For the first time, seriously considering switching to Android.

Microsoft: Windows Phone isn't our focus this year | The Verge

I think that it is not a reason to go bananas. What I understand is that Microsoft is not going to add new features to their Mobile platform, but they will keep working on the Windows 10 Core, and that includes PC, IoT, Mobile, XBox One, Hololens, ..., I don't see any thing wrong.

 

[a5cent]

I don't think anyone is saying they are equal per se, they can be considered equal when discussing of this and other matters, like you admitted.

What is being said is that for the purpose of this thread, W10 and W10M could be considered the same. Until we can unequivocally say there is nothing to be gained from that, in this thread or anywhere else, we'll likely not get on the same page. IMHO that is misinformation.

If you were instead to say that WM hosts the UWP, and MS' focus on the UWP is therefore likely to indirectly rub off on WM as well (at least to some extent), then I'm totally in agreement with you.

Those are just two very different statements.

Unfortunately, it's entirely possible for MS to build 1000 UWP apps, not one of which runs on WM. Another example would be MS' plan to bring better DirectX support to Windows Store apps, which probably won't rub off on WM at all either. I'm not predicting a complete failure and doom here. I'm just saying that we can't really say how much of that focus will really rub off on W10M until we see it (hey, look at that... another reason to not call them the same).

:smile:

 

[Brian Emmerling]

Microsoft has the most pro-individual approach to mobile and they get nothing but crap for it. Every core service that is offered is offered any platform of your choice. You can be a windows mobile phone user today and switch to android tomorrow and have no need to switch ecosystems.

I love the choice MS is giving us. If the services are good, the people will come.

 

[anon(3463402)]

considering switching to Android

Yeah, it's very good for kids.

I would rather use Nokia 3210 than android.

 

[Jason Rosenthal]

What is not clear to me is the Xamarian (or whatever it's called) coding tool

It means that developers specializing in creating software using Visual Studio and .net do not have to abandon Microsoft tools/skills when moving to Android or iOS development. Its win win for Microsoft and developers. Microsoft can retain some developers on Visual Studio for when they are ready to focus, and developers don't need much training as they switch into Android/iOS development.

 

[Panos Athanasiou]

well windows 10 is Desktop and Mobile with some small differences and for them to release a phone build is actually nothing as they have said. so they might mean that as a whole:3 after all W10m is 1 year old?... it needs some time to mature like the other competitors xd

 

[WillysJeepMan]

Follwing the standard process for killing off a product:

1) Consolidate support around "core" users and give up on broad market use.
- Windows 10 Mobile devices released for WP enthusiasts with little to no marketing for them.

2) Announce that the platform currently isn't a focus.
- Myerson's comments yesterday.

3) Announce the that platform is being discontinued.
- ???

RIP WP, glad I jumped ship before things got as bad as they are now.

You forgot a step. 1.a) Remove the executive responsible for the product to be killed so as to distance him from the act, giving him plausible deniability and protect his reputation. (bye bye Joey Belfiore)

 

[Mr Hyde]

Typical article headline. Sensationalize to some degree to get clicks. Typical reader reaction. Read the headline and draw a conclusion with limited information.

It seems to me that Myerson summed up MS's position with this statement (which was the last line of the article), "We're going to do some cool things with phones, but this year phones are an important part of our family but not the tip of the spear." Since MS is much more than just a "phone" company this seems totally logical to me

 

[caesar500]

Communication has never been Microsoft's strong point. There are better ways to speak to your base. I'm starting to think that the strategy is to let it burn to the ground, and then slowly build up in a year or two. Only at that point will put more resources into it. In the meantime, the NYPD and airline deals have been good. It just seems like any momentum there will not carry over to outside of business, because Microsoft does not care for consumer phone products at this time.

 

[cracgor]

well windows 10 is Desktop and Mobile with some small differences and for them to release a phone build is actually nothing as they have said. so they might mean that as a whole:3 after all W10m is 1 year old?... it needs some time to mature like the other competitors xd

If it was nothing to release a phone build, why is W10M still waiting for an official release 5 months after the unofficial release with L950? W10M looks a lot more like W10 as far as fonts and things go, but there has to be a good difference between the two for all the delays on release. Also, its unfair to do this W10M is only a couple of months old. By that account, it is the same age as Android. W10M was released in November and Marshmallow was released in October.

 

[Ibro2g]

You know, I just don't get it either. Everything that was announced at //build/ is a plus plus and super plus for widows 10 mobile. The pessimism at windows central is epic, almost like a curse.

The Verge is like an Apple promotion site these days, they'll spin whatever news they get to make MS look bad. Have you heard the interview? This year isn't about mobile, its about Windows, all of it, mobile inclusive. However, me, I'm not a developer, but I'm super excited for UWP, for Cortana and Skype, for Ink, Hello and the possibilities of those APIs in the hands of developers. Indeed the future is her and its clearly with Windows 10.

 

[Chris 6]

On a brighter note and a change from all the negative about Windows Mobile 10 I just watched the movie Batman vs. Superman did anyone catch the Lumia 950 being used in the movie? I thought it was cool and seemed good NOT to see an Apple all over the place. Snyder DC or someone associated with these movies must like Windows phone they were featured in Man of Steel movie and now Batman vs Superman. I have the 950 and its a GREAT phone.