07-04-2016 04:38 AM
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  1. a5cent's Avatar
    You are basically trying to argue that MS might as well give up on mobile because: 1) Apple is perceived as the company who's products "just work", 2) Google offers cheap or free ad supported products, 3) W10M has nothing unique to offer, 4) The public wants dumbed down mobile solutions, and 5) The vast majority (close to 300 million Windows 10 users + all other flavours of Windows) use it only because they have to.

    Again, I have to say that I disagree with most of your and Mr. Thurrott's assumptions. Instead I would argue that Microsoft has a lot in their favour for the foreseeable future:
    You're right about some of that, but nowhere did I say that MS should just give up. I also didn't say that the public wants dumbed down solutions (some do, some don't). You're putting words in my mouth. Please don't.

    What I am saying is that W10M must finally, after five years, implement a few unique features that are aimed squarely at consumers, easy to understand, easy to demonstrate and market, and are viewed as very desirable by a lot of people. If MS can do that then there is no reason to give up. Right now I just don't see any such feature. Continuum is admittedly a very unique feature, but it's targeted squarely at developers, and that's not enough.

    1) As you say, Apple is "perceived" as selling easy to use products. This was true 10 years ago, but no longer. Instead, as I stated earlier they could be pushing themselves into a corner where simplicity is starting to make their product too constrictive and often annoying to use because they lack some even basic functionality. This is a great opportunity for Microsoft, W10 and W10M are not only just as easy to use as any other OS's, but also far more functional.

    2) The public is slowly starting to understand how Google makes its money, and importantly how scattered their mobile offering is. They have not yet indicated any clear path as to where they plan to go with Android and Chrome. This is a great opportunity for Microsoft. They take privacy very seriously (a must since they aim for both corporate and private clients), they have a clear path for their OS strategy and they have already reached their first goal in their path to one OS for all devices.

    3) W10M certainly has something unique to offer. A future proof mobile OS which is not only integrated with their desktop offering, but actually using the core. The lines between phones, tablets, and laptops are getting increasingly thinner, and why would you not want to have a mobile device that can connect to a big screen and function just like a computer if it was possible. This is another great opportunity for Microsoft which is more than clear to them.

    4) The whole and complete public does not want dumbed down solutions, and as mobile devices become increasingly more powerful and possible to use more like computers (for those that so wish) I think the ratio of people who want more than just a "simple appliance" will rapidly increase. Again, a great opportunity for Microsoft.

    5) If the vast majority of people who use Windows do so because they have to, then why are many reluctant to move on from Windows 7 - and actively told not to by industry pundits like Paul Thurrott - when W10 is so much more fun to use. You used the word "perception", and that is what this boils down to. Many people (and the media) have the "perception" that Windows is a boring and complicated workhorse. On an objective level that is simply not true, which should be seen as yet another opportunity for Microsoft. Perceptions are not eternally static.
    I think that's wishful thinking. Either that or you're projecting your own views onto everyone else.

    1)
    Read the tech articles in the mainstream press anywhere in the world and then judge the "favorability ratings" yourself. They aren't in MS' favor.

    2)
    People are starting to understand, but there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that most people will eagerly sacrifice their privacy in exchange for "free stuff". I hate to say it, but very few care about this.

    3)
    You're delusional if you think a majority of people care about "one core". Having all versions of Windows share some common components might excite you as an enthusiast, but it does absolutely nothing for the average user. Most importantly, developers can already provide the exact same end-user capabilities/features on iOS and Android. The only difference is that developers must do a lot more work to achieve comparable results. Assuming iOS and Android developers will put in the effort, there won't be a huge difference from an end user's perspective. Like I said, this is a unique feature, but it's aimed squarely and exclusively at developers.

    4)
    "Dumbed down" is a derogatory term which the overwhelming majority of people would call "simple to use". I'd also put Android in that category, which I definitely wouldn't call "dumbed down", but you can pretty much use it like an iPhone and just forget about everything else. The point which you're having trouble understanding is that you can't do that with a Windows PC. With a Windows PC (or any current desktop OS) comes complexity and administrative overhead that can't be ignored. That's what people don't want. You may call anything that's simpler to maintain than a Windows PC "dumbed down", but most would disagree and say what you're advocating for is just more overly complicated, pointless and despised maintenance work... in most cases justifiably so. MS agrees with that view BTW, as the WinRT environment (basis of UWP) provides that simpler environment for desktop users... it will just be many years before WinRT's ecosystem catches up with the Win32's environment in terms of software choices and functionality (assuming it eventually does).

    5)
    Because the vast majority of people couldn't care less what version of the Windows OS they use, as they perceive it as nothing more than an app launcher.

    I've said my part now, and I doubt we'll agree on much here, so we'll probably have to agree to disagree.
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-12-2016 at 05:45 AM. Reason: slight clarifications to point 4, spelling
    tgp, sf49ers, aximtreo and 2 others like this.
    05-06-2016 08:01 PM
  2. cracgor's Avatar
    You're right about some of that, but nowhere did I say that MS should just give up. I also didn't say that the public wants dumbed down solutions (some do, some don't). You're putting words in my mouth. Please don't.

    What I am saying is that W10M must finally, after five years, implement a few unique features that are aimed squarely at consumes, easy to understand, easy to demonstrate and market, and are viewed as very desirable by a lot of people. If MS can do that then there is no reason to give up. Right now I don't see any such feature. Continuum is admittedly a very unique feature, but it's targeted squarely at developers, and that's not enough.



    I think that's wishful thinking. Either that or you're projecting your own views onto everyone else.

    1)
    Read the tech articles in the mainstream press anywhere in the world and then judge the "favorability ratings" yourself. They aren't in MS' favor.

    2)
    People are starting to understand, but there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that most people will eagerly sacrifice their privacy in exchange for "free stuff". I hate to say it, but very few care about this.

    3)
    You're delusional if you think a majority of people care. Using the "same core" might excite an enthusiast, but it does absolutely nothing for the average user. Most importantly, developers can already provide the exact same end-user capabilities/features on iOS/Android. The only difference is that developers must do a lot more work to achieve comparable results. Assuming iOS and Android developers will put in the effort, there won't be a huge difference from an end user's perspective. Like I said, this is a unique feature, but it's aimed squarely and exclusively at developers.

    4)
    "Dumbed down" is a derogatory term which the overwhelming majority of people would call "simple to use". I'd also put Android in that category, which I definitely wouldn't call "dumbed down", but you can pretty much use it like an iPhone and just forget about everything else. The point which you're having trouble understanding is that you can't do that with a Windows PC. With a Windows PC (or any current desktop OS) comes complexity and administrative overhead that can't be ignored. That's what people don't want. You can call anything that's simpler to maintain than a Windows PC "dumbed down" if you want. Most view it as nothing more than pointless, unnecessary and unwanted work... in most cases justifiably so (and MS agrees with that, as the WinRT environment or UWP provides that simpler environment for desktop users too... it will just be many years until Windows it becomes a viable solution on its own without the Win32 environment to back it up).

    5)
    Because the vast majority of people couldn't care less what the version of their Windows OS is, as they perceive and use it as nothing more than an app launcher.

    I've said my part now, and I doubt we'll agree on much here, so we'll probably have to agree to disagree.
    I think people do want "dumbed down"--that is a fact of industrial engineering. If 99% of the public doesn't use a feature in an OS or an app, it is generally better to remove it to create a simple streamlined software. That doesn't mean it is everyone's preference. I prefer a mouse with 3 buttons and a roller wheel. But most people don't even know there is a third button on a generic mouse, and don't mind one button mice.

    The UWP holy grail is not quite as useful as it sounds. I still stand by that in a lot of situations, it makes more sense to just have completely different programs or apps. Like if you were coding an app for a PC it would make sense to think about interacting with a mouse (things like hover with a mouse pointer), while on an xbox, you have to make it useable with a controller, and on a tablet/phone you have to consider a touch screen and no ability to hover with a mouse pointer. Then you get into the different sensors available in different devices and different processors which allow different levels of computing. Eventually, you have to make so many changes to your app that it really isn't universal. That is what Apple is betting when they refuse to put iOS on desktops. I tend to agree to a certain point.
    sf49ers likes this.
    05-06-2016 10:30 PM
  3. a5cent's Avatar
    I think people do want "dumbed down"--that is a fact of industrial engineering. If 99% of the public doesn't use a feature in an OS or an app, it is generally better to remove it to create a simple streamlined software. That doesn't mean it is everyone's preference. I prefer a mouse with 3 buttons and a roller wheel. But most people don't even know there is a third button on a generic mouse, and don't mind one button mice.
    I agree, as long as we interpret the vague term "dumbed down" to mean "maintenance free". I think Per Kjellqvist is using the term "dumbed down" to also mean "feature poor", as if you can't have feature rich software without the complexity of the Win32 desktop environment, but both Android and (to a degree) the WinRT desktop environment prove that we can have feature rich software with a lot less of the maintenance complexities.

    The UWP holy grail is not quite as useful as it sounds. I still stand by that in a lot of situations, it makes more sense to just have completely different programs or apps. Like if you were coding an app for a PC it would make sense to think about interacting with a mouse (things like hover with a mouse pointer), while on an xbox, you have to make it useable with a controller, and on a tablet/phone you have to consider a touch screen and no ability to hover with a mouse pointer. Then you get into the different sensors available in different devices and different processors which allow different levels of computing. Eventually, you have to make so many changes to your app that it really isn't universal. That is what Apple is betting when they refuse to put iOS on desktops. I tend to agree to a certain point.
    You're obviously right that different form factors require specific approaches to handling input. Compared to the effort required to re-composite the UI for different display sizes, input handling is a very minor issue though. Then again, both of those issues are trivial when compared to the effort required to build the same app for iOS and OSX. This is my point:

    The fact that an app must consider the differences between various form factors and include some things that are specific to each of them, doesn't mean that the UWP is not worthwhile. It's still a huge advantage compared to the alternative, where a dev would create two separate apps for iOS and OSX..

    Apple surely realizes what such an approach means in terms of developer time and cost. Surely they aren't dismissing that, but what they really think about it I do not know. At least publicly their argument is that it's better to have an OS optimized specifically for each form factor, rather than to have something like the UWP, which Apple essentially calls a jack of all trades (one app can run on anything) but master of none (nowhere is the UX as good as it could be).
    Last edited by a5cent; 05-09-2016 at 10:00 AM. Reason: spelling
    Laura Knotek, aximtreo and libra89 like this.
    05-07-2016 08:01 AM
  4. cracgor's Avatar
    I agree, as long as we interpret the vague term "dumbed down" to mean "maintenance free". I think Per Kjellqvist is using the term "dumbed down" to also mean "feature poor", as if you can't have feature rich software without the complexity of the Win32 desktop environment, but both Android and (to a degree) the WinRT desktop environment prove that we can have feature rich software with a lot less of the maintenance complexities.



    You're obviously right that different form factors require specific approaches to handling input. Compared to the effort required to re-composite the UI for different size displays, input handling is a very minor issue though. Both of those issues are trivial when compared to the effort required to build the same app for iOS and OSX. My point:

    The fact that an app must consider the differences between various form factors, and that app must have some things that are specific to each form factor, doesn't mean the UWP is not worthwhile. It's still a huge advantage compared to the alternative, where a dev would create two separate apps for iOS and OSX..

    Apple surely realizes what such an approach means in terms of developer time and cost. Surely they aren't dismissing that, but what they really think about it I do not know. At least publicly their argument is that it's better to have an OS optimized specifically for each form factor, rather than to have something like the UWP, which Apple essentially calls a jack of all trades (one app can run on anything) but master of none (nowhere is the UX as good as it could be).
    I agree with everything above. I might add that the dumbed down version also tends to be cheaper for the consumer. For all these reasons (less maintenance, learning curve, and cost) people prefer dumbed down (like instagram versus photoshop for photo editing).

    You also just have to consider the look of things. Most of the really awesome Win32 apps are not very "sexy" or modern looking. I'm using some really awesome video editing software right now, but it looks like it was made for Windows 98 (because the function is more important than the appearance). However, it has none of the cool factor seen with slick modern apps.
    05-07-2016 08:19 AM
  5. loribinca's Avatar
    I really feel windows 10 was a step back from windows 8, so I ended up getting an iPhone 5s (I got given a watch) - this for me is the perfect combination. I love how I can just glance at my wrist for incoming whatsApp/imessages and appoinemtns, and it allows me to use ApplePay in most of the places I shop.
    05-07-2016 10:45 AM
  6. TRICSIO's Avatar
    Windows 10 Mobile is offering a lot the lack of advertising what is new or matters is Microsoft's downfall. Many of the features offered by the iPhone are already here. The lack of apps is the hold for the expected adaptation.
    05-07-2016 03:04 PM
  7. Soundtweaker's Avatar
    Just to let you know that crappy Burst Mode on the 950XL took this shot.

    backside-tweak.jpg
    05-07-2016 06:10 PM
  8. editguy's Avatar
    Why would I need a plan b? If Windows mobile cease to exist I would just have to get something else. That can be done in a matter of minutes and requires absolutely no planning. If I planned now and it happened two years from now, that planning would be a waste of time because everything would have changed. Until that day comes (if it ever comes) I'm quite satisfied with what I have now. It meets all of my needs so I don't need to waste time worrying about what ifs for something so trivial as a phone.
    05-07-2016 06:51 PM
  9. Ten Four's Avatar
    Why would I need a plan b? If Windows mobile cease to exist I would just have to get something else.
    ^^This^^ Most people don't live inside their phones like those on these forums, so we just move on to something that works better if that time comes. You might want to try an experiment and see what it is like to live without a smartphone for a few weeks--try it, you might like it! If smartphones disappeared tomorrow life would go on.
    05-07-2016 07:17 PM
  10. Ingiomar Martina's Avatar
    No plan B. I'm all in.
    Kevin Rush and Z80_Man like this.
    05-07-2016 10:24 PM
  11. jesperbj's Avatar
    I'd just grab an Android Nexus device. Or a OnePlus. I might even do it this year, unfortunately.
    05-08-2016 04:52 AM
  12. melhiore's Avatar
    I am all google HOWEVER thinking about getting Windows mobile device. And there is one simple reason: the way all Microsoft services are integrated together is better than Android. Apart from that I use only handful of applications so app gap is not a problem. I use my phone do generate money. It is a production tool. Not a toy like iPhone, not a gaming platform. Dual SIM is a big advantage with 950XL. Just need to find the right budget and I am in... Looks like my Nexus 6P will be sold soon...

    For those that have a difficulty to accept the state of windows mobile I will tell you one thing only. Whatever is happening to Microsoft, mobile market and potential sales to Enterprise are to much to leave behind. If Microsoft will not release any more Windows mobile devices HP will (they did already). Others will follow...
    05-08-2016 06:41 AM
  13. rob1408's Avatar
    I've gone back to my iPhone, albeit reluctantly. I like the idea of Windows phone more than the reality. I only use around ten apps consistently, all of which are available on Windows, but those apps seem fully fleshed out on IOS and Android whereas they seem more buggy, not quite finished on Windows. I also had problems with WiFi and a few other niggles, although a recent firmware upgrade seems to of rectified them.

    I'm going to keep my Lumia's (I have a 950xl and a 550) because I really want Windows phone to succeed, not looking great though.
    ak_r7, libra89 and MSFTisMIA like this.
    05-08-2016 07:23 AM
  14. Xaxxus's Avatar
    I've gone back to my iPhone, albeit reluctantly. I like the idea of Windows phone more than the reality. I only use around ten apps consistently, all of which are available on Windows, but those apps seem fully fleshed out on IOS and Android whereas they seem more buggy, not quite finished on Windows. I also had problems with WiFi and a few other niggles, although a recent firmware upgrade seems to of rectified them.

    I'm going to keep my Lumia's (I have a 950xl and a 550) because I really want Windows phone to succeed, not looking great though.
    You are in the exact situation as me.
    05-08-2016 12:18 PM
  15. gamotospitimou's Avatar
    First i move from htc radar(7.8) to iphone4 in 2011
    then i change my mind and buy the lumia 920 to see the innovation of windows 8
    i change my mind again it has no innovation at all and i bought the iphone 5 in 2013
    i keep it for 3year very good phone! and then windows 10 announce!! so i bought the lumia 930....
    awesome device but...not a phone! so now i stack with iphone 6s.
    Εnd of story.
    05-08-2016 02:45 PM
  16. anon(8145610)'s Avatar
    It's pretty telling that Microsoft is offering better versions of their apps to iOS and Android users before their own W10M customers. Just tells you where the market is - and isn't. Get a grip, Microsoft Lumia users... it's going away. Money talks; BS walks.
    05-08-2016 03:59 PM
  17. charktorious's Avatar
    I have been a Windows Insider for a long time, both on PC and Mobile, I have tried really hard to love W10M on my Lumia 830 but I rolled-back to WP8.1 and currently I have no plans to update it again to W10M... Too many issues, inconsistencies and a broken experience compared to WP.

    My current plan is:

    1) Stick with WP on my Lumia as long as:
    A) The phone will keep working
    B) I won't feel to use a completely abandoned platform

    2) When that time will come, I'll likely get an Android-based device
    Pretty much my Plan B. Outside of the app gap, I love Windows Mobile (and I have used iOS and Android pretty extensively). I get the smooth UI / better battery life of iOS with the tech-friendliness of Android devices (like the removable battery and microSD slot).

    If I had to pick, if Windows Mobile completely died, it would be have to Android and I would just mod the thing as best as I could. And carry an extra power pack with me. :)
    05-08-2016 11:02 PM
  18. slyronit's Avatar
    Well, I got to test Plan B sooner than I thought. I broke my 950XL display last week and would be without it for a couple of weeks while it is being repaired. I was looking for spares and tried these 2 phones

    iPhone 5S

    +Good, fluid OS, everything works as expected
    +Fingerprint scanner is faster than the 950XL Iris scanner
    -Display too small
    -No easy way to catch information at a glance right on the home screen

    Eventually, I couldn't use it because of the tiny display

    LG G2

    I cannot even begin to describe how much I hated this phone.
    -Ugly, garish UI
    -No proper display scaling like Windows 10 (Font size can be reduced/increased, but not the UI elements)
    -Ugly navigation bar at the bottom, too thick, cannot be reduced
    -The notification bar/screen has 25% of its space taken up by the volume and brightness slider and these cannot be removed without rooting the phone. I never use the brightness slider and a volume slider is redundant when you have dedicated volume keys (awkwardly at the back).
    -No badge notifications. In 2016?
    -Ugly & confusing settings menu
    -OSs update fails, even after a factory reset. Some obscure error code

    I installed Arrow launcher, which looks better, but made things more confusing. There were now 2 settings, one via Arrow launcher and the original one.

    Eventually, I lasted half a day on the iPhone, and a couple of hours on the LG G2. All in all, I now miss my phone even more, hoping I get it back sooner rather than later.
    Games Goblin likes this.
    05-09-2016 07:32 AM
  19. Z80_Man's Avatar
    Actually, the real, vital and only drawback on WM10 is developpers can't apparently access to lots of the system resources.

    Such simple and obvious things like directly toggling wifi on or off from a shortcut or tile can't be done !!! All you can do is open the matching settings page !

    For someone like me having lived with Windows Mobile for over a decade, that's totally weird. You could do this kind of thing with just a notepad, writing a MortScript to change a registry key, then adding a shortcut to the Start menu with a personalized icon, and it would take no more than 10 mn with just the phone and simple tools such as a text editor and a file manager !

    As another example, I could find no downloadable app able to replace the incomplete keyboard with a more complete one. How could you work without tab, deled, insert, escape, arrow keys and so on ??? This is a damn pocket computer, that's what made Windows Mobile attractive in the first place, and if you are to be using pocket terminals to connect to your company's software, you do need them !

    The fact the available ssh terminal have to circumvent the problem by adding an additional keys ribbon on top of the standard software keyboard proves this is locked as well.

    OK, I could understand they would not include a registry editor for standard customers, but why are they limiting this for developpers as well ?

    Those limitations are actually the only thing that would make the difference between another failure and a real success. What does really diferenciate a pocket PC running Windows Mobile form its contenders ? Just this. The ability to perform some serious programming and provide professional apps, using the whole device features.

    Actually, it can be done on Android phones, because if you can root them, then all what Linux can do is available.

    But Windows Mobile really doens't have to be ashamed in comparison. The registry is just so much easier to memorize and master than Linux' bunch of settings text files ! The fact you can import a key or just set a value independently from the rest represents Windows' true power, if you think about it.

    Otherwise, it's just yet another OS, and it does its job. The fact the GUI is mixed with the OS, that is otherwise rather a problem on desktop PCs in terms of reliability and complexity, becomes rather an advantage when it comes to small sized embedded systems. That's what has always made Windows Mobile and Windows CE winners from the start.

    So if MS would just allow programmers (who respect the mobile development chart, create app market compliant programs, etc., no problem, I'm not arguing about this) to access more system resources, I'm absolutely sure the market would explode.

    For now, the problem is not really the app gap. I could find all I wanted, except for those technical details, meaning it's not a problem of apps offer (there are too many to gather all of them already), but a problem of limited features. Lots of additional apps would exist if programmers could only access the necessary system features. And lots of existing apps would just do much more than they can do for now.

    After a couple of months using WM10, tt's pretty clear : the app gap is totally Microsoft's fault. As soon as they would allow the programmers to go further, lots of fabulous apps could be written. For now, and apart from games and countless variants of the same few tools, programmers are quite turning around, hitting their heads against walls that MS has erected for no conceivable reasons.

    Just unleash those system limitations and see how it comes... I really hope they'll do, or you're right to think Windows Phone/Mobile will die.

    For now, I'll check how to interop unlock mine, but it's totally abnormal you have to do this to be able to use your device the way it should be.

    OK, I know it's the same for Android and iOS, but it doens't sound the same to me : Windows Mobile used to be open in the past and you could easily unleash its full power and potential, so restricting it like this just feels unnatural. It's just totally out of its culture and roots !

    MS is clearly missing an opportunity there. At least programmers should access to all, or almost all the system resources.

    Maybe this will change sooner or later. I really hope it will, as the OS has real qualities. It would really be a waste if they would keep it restrained like this.
    05-09-2016 08:52 AM
  20. rromerof's Avatar
    Do you have an insider program where I can test new releases of your beer? :D
    It will be named Beersider Program! :D
    Krystianpants and MSFTisMIA like this.
    05-09-2016 11:34 AM
  21. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I agree with everything above. I might add that the dumbed down version also tends to be cheaper for the consumer. For all these reasons (less maintenance, learning curve, and cost) people prefer dumbed down (like instagram versus photoshop for photo editing).

    You also just have to consider the look of things. Most of the really awesome Win32 apps are not very "sexy" or modern looking. I'm using some really awesome video editing software right now, but it looks like it was made for Windows 98 (because the function is more important than the appearance). However, it has none of the cool factor seen with slick modern apps.
    I think what I really like about windows mobile is that you have that default where everything just works (When it's bug free of course). Then you have the ability to go in and do as much customization as you see fit. So it sort of can appeal to everyone. I have been noticing lately that one of my friends who is a huge pusher of IPhone 6s and ios is starting to realize that the ease of use is impacting her ability to get what she wants out of it. There have been many scenarios where she wanted to get certain things setup but she couldn't. And the settings isn't as intuitive as windows phone. Once you go in there it's a pretty big mess with very little functionality. So she will be searching through it to do things but she can't! And lately she's been saying that if windows mobile could break the app barrier she can see it becoming huge. I lent her my lumia 830 with w10m and she said it was actually a lot more intuitive and easier to use. But she couldn't find a few apps that she wanted and thought the store was a mess.

    Just like there comes a time when you need a specific app, there comes a time when you need your OS to do more. And w10m has the advantage there. Android is up there too but it's a bit more messy and harder to navigate. The issue is that apps will always take precedence over that scenario. If your friends all have an app that you can't use you feel left out. If people truly wanted "ease of use" then android would not be the largest market share holder. Or is it really just price? If Apple released budget phones would they steal a lot of Android market share? It's possible.

    I think by creating the unified experience that MS is seeking with windows 10, people will know exactly how to customize any device that they use running windows 10. Being familiar with just one OS empowers you to do more. Learning OSx will not translate to ios and vice versa.

    The complexity of w32 apps can be translated into easier to use UI. I think the day that photoshop can be moved to UWP, provide the same functionality and be easy to navigate is the day UWP will show its power. Of course it would only be published for Desktop or Continuum(Providing the hardware allows it). The UI is probably the biggest problem. And I could not see it working well with a touch UI using your finger but it can definitely be done with a smart pen. It's really about thinking outside the box. The code itself is complex and that won't change, but a good designer can produce a suitable UI for pens and mice with a modern look. The UI was designed in an era where things were different. It's really about thinking outside the box and not placing the limitations of the old era into the modern one.

    I would really love for Adobe and MS to get together and work on enhancing the UWP api and move these apps to the store. MS needs to finance things like this and show the world that UWP is not just for simple programs.

    Give me something that works, and then let me customize it. And market it as such.
    05-09-2016 01:10 PM
  22. cracgor's Avatar
    I think what I really like about windows mobile is that you have that default where everything just works (When it's bug free of course). Then you have the ability to go in and do as much customization as you see fit. So it sort of can appeal to everyone. I have been noticing lately that one of my friends who is a huge pusher of IPhone 6s and ios is starting to realize that the ease of use is impacting her ability to get what she wants out of it. There have been many scenarios where she wanted to get certain things setup but she couldn't. And the settings isn't as intuitive as windows phone. Once you go in there it's a pretty big mess with very little functionality. So she will be searching through it to do things but she can't! And lately she's been saying that if windows mobile could break the app barrier she can see it becoming huge. I lent her my lumia 830 with w10m and she said it was actually a lot more intuitive and easier to use. But she couldn't find a few apps that she wanted and thought the store was a mess.

    Just like there comes a time when you need a specific app, there comes a time when you need your OS to do more. And w10m has the advantage there. Android is up there too but it's a bit more messy and harder to navigate. The issue is that apps will always take precedence over that scenario. If your friends all have an app that you can't use you feel left out. If people truly wanted "ease of use" then android would not be the largest market share holder. Or is it really just price? If Apple released budget phones would they steal a lot of Android market share? It's possible.

    I think by creating the unified experience that MS is seeking with windows 10, people will know exactly how to customize any device that they use running windows 10. Being familiar with just one OS empowers you to do more. Learning OSx will not translate to ios and vice versa.

    The complexity of w32 apps can be translated into easier to use UI. I think the day that photoshop can be moved to UWP, provide the same functionality and be easy to navigate is the day UWP will show its power. Of course it would only be published for Desktop or Continuum(Providing the hardware allows it). The UI is probably the biggest problem. And I could not see it working well with a touch UI using your finger but it can definitely be done with a smart pen. It's really about thinking outside the box. The code itself is complex and that won't change, but a good designer can produce a suitable UI for pens and mice with a modern look. The UI was designed in an era where things were different. It's really about thinking outside the box and not placing the limitations of the old era into the modern one.

    I would really love for Adobe and MS to get together and work on enhancing the UWP api and move these apps to the store. MS needs to finance things like this and show the world that UWP is not just for simple programs.

    Give me something that works, and then let me customize it. And market it as such.
    Photoshop has supported pen input for as long as I have used it. The problem will still be power of the processor. For example, if I try to run photoshop from my PC with a core i7 processor to draw something at say 300 dpi with a moderately complex brush, it is just useable. Anything that pushes the limits of that (higher dpi, bigger canvas, more complex brush) causes the program to crawl to the point of being not fun to use. Maybe one day, but right now you'd be trying to cram an Origin EVO in your pocket to get a good user experience. Imagine people complaining about the heat issues! One day about 10 years from now this will probably come to fruition.
    05-09-2016 02:42 PM
  23. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Photoshop has supported pen input for as long as I have used it. The problem will still be power of the processor. For example, if I try to run photoshop from my PC with a core i7 processor to draw something at say 300 dpi with a moderately complex brush, it is just useable. Anything that pushes the limits of that (higher dpi, bigger canvas, more complex brush) causes the program to crawl to the point of being not fun to use. Maybe one day, but right now you'd be trying to cram an Origin EVO in your pocket to get a good user experience. Imagine people complaining about the heat issues! One day about 10 years from now this will probably come to fruition.
    I'm not just talking about having it on your phone. But at least to be able to convert it to UWP for desktops and have the API adapt to any needs. My argument is if you want to make UWP better than w32 then you need to showcase its power with one of the most complex apps. It can be published for Desktop only. Point is make UWP a worthy successor. Find ways of making these tasks more efficient. UWP isn't only about mobile. There will be things that are best suited for Desktop only and others that are best suited for mobile. This also gives the opportunity to possibly enhance the code to better suit todays hardware. Sure the i7 is powerful but what it photoshop was able to use new chips particularly powerful GPU's to do tasks much quicker. It's always been cpu intensive and the code hasn't really been changed over the years. New features have been added but how much of that is actually optimization. My friend does animation and a lot of different applications will give different results due to optimizations for different GPUs. Sometimes the bottleneck isn't the actual hardware.
    05-09-2016 02:53 PM
  24. Keith Vogt's Avatar
    Plan B. Two soup cans and a string.
    MSFTisMIA likes this.
    05-09-2016 03:09 PM
  25. Holy Shadows's Avatar
    I am currently living out my plan B on Android. Actually it was plan C as I was going to get an iPhone (something) Plus. The thing is my Wife works for Sprint and as you know they don't have Windows Phones anymore (or barely ever did.) However they occasionally get advocate devices which more often than not, tend to be Android. Don't get me wrong I absolutely LOVE Windows Phone/Mobile but fanatically it didn't make sense for me to keep paying for my 950 on ATT. So once I received the HTC A9, I moved everything over and to be honest things have been going pretty well. There are certain things that drive me nuts but all in all it's not the end of the world. I can still use almost everything I did on my Windows Phone just a little less connected into the OS. iPhone for the most part would be the same way as well minus how closed off they are to certain ideas. Such as using a 3rd party keyboard exclusively i.e. WordFlow or how the 2factor authentication app "Microsoft Account" works, (which I absolutely love!) Also consider how notifications will work with Android and Windows 10 in the future, assuming that doesn't get changed or cut. All in all, I can survive on Android until they either confirm W10mobile is no more or they come out with a device that really has some traction behind it. Windows phone is near an dear to my heart and I really want it to do well or come back, but I don't know if that is possible. Time will tell.
    05-09-2016 08:01 PM
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