W10M and the anti OS brigade

[Mad Cabbie]

I have been perusing the boards, and indeed the comments thread, and there still seems to be a persistent 'hatred' / 'dislike' of whatever MS is offering.

We have to remember that W10M is a ground up rework of an OS. It isn't an android 'update', where Marshmallow, is basically the same as lollipop, including the same old bugs.

Yes, W10M has bugs, show me any kind of OS that doesn't. There are still those moaning that MS still haven't released W10M! The worrying thing is, they are members of this community!!

Whilst on the subject of comments or posting, there seems to be an ever increasing number of members who, rather than offer a persuasive or grounded view, will just leap into the usual drivel without backing there comments up. It's not really appropriate to shout that the OS is poor, MS are mugging us off, they don't care etc, usually with slightly stronger terminology. I am by no means a huge MS fan. I may be an ambassador for WC, but I like to research before getting upset and throwing a fit.

If the feeling of dislike is that strong, there are a couple of options available. 1) Chase the Android dream 2) Join iOS.

There is one more, slightly off the beaten track option. Stay with MS and go along for the ride.

Admittedly, the past 2-3 years have been a joke. Hopefully, W10M will emerge all the better for it. MS hit the mark with the Surface line, and maybe, by taking a step back, they can successfully introduce W10M into the enterprise market. That's the only space where they can compete with the other OS's. The consumer market is lost, and we all need to realise that. Its like a community cable station competing with Fox or CNN etc. MS has left the consumer market for third party OEM's to get on board, and we have already seen some interesting devices.

Finally, those who decry the bugginess of W10M. The OS will NEVER be complete, in the context that once the bare bones are in place, regular updates (WaaS) will keep the OS developing and offer fixes and improvements.

For those who disagree, feel free to jump in and explain why you feel this isn't the case.

For those who see the whole picture, have I missed something or gone too far leftfield!

 

[Pete]

You know that old saying where you give an infinite amount of monkeys a typewriter each and they'll reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare?

Well, this is the internet. If you give people the chance to complain about stuff, then every single thing on the internet will get complained about.

It's human nature to find fault in things. It's the internet's fault for giving people a voice that everyone else on the internet can hear.

No one ever shouts about being happy to settle for what they have.

 

[tgp]

Admittedly, the past 2-3 years have been a joke. Hopefully, W10M will emerge all the better for it.

You described the situation right here. We've been hearing hopes, promises, and SOON™ for a long time. Isn't it logical that the public would start to doubt? You have written the thoughts of the WP/WM faithfuls in the 2nd sentence.

 

[trha]

I don't get those people either. Will the death of W10M bring any good to them? If you don't like W10M, simply ignore the articles. Why bother commenting bad things about it?

 

[Bobvfr]

They are the same people who moaned like mad when Windows 3 came in and you needed a mouse to use it, people went spare, I can go on and on, people moan like mad because they don't like change, they never say that, they blame this or that, but it's 99% down to change, then after a few weeks they forget about that and realise that the new OS brings new and good stuff and they get on with it.

 

[Pete]

Yep, that's true.

There's three kinds of change that people don't like:
1) Something changed from what they like
2) Something not changing quickly enough
3) Something not changing at all

And of course, any unwanted change Is a "showstopper" or "deal breaker". Nothing is ever a mild annoyance.

 

[Tien-Lin Chang]

We have to remember that W10M is a ground up rework of an OS. It isn't an android 'update', where Marshmallow, is basically the same as lollipop, including the same old bugs.

The difference between WP8/W10M are not that big. They both are same 32bit NT core same as Win8/Win10 and that's why W10M can take WP8 native apps without using emulator just like Win10 can take Win7/8 driver normally, plus you can do OTA upgrade from WP8 to W10M and using the same flashtool to flash just the ROM back to WP8 menas the basic recovery was untouched. From UX aspect, current W10M are just a fact-lift WP8 with UWP support. Overall, I don't think the difference is bigger than a major version update in iOS/Android.

Finally, those who decry the bugginess of W10M. The OS will NEVER be complete, in the context that once the bare bones are in place, regular updates (WaaS) will keep the OS developing and offer fixes and improvements.

For those who disagree, feel free to jump in and explain why you feel this isn't the case.

For those who see the whole picture, have I missed something or gone too far leftfield!

What bare bone? Which part of the core OS are you talking about? If I upgrade the CPU/Motherboard/RAM of my PC this year then doing VGA/HDD/Case+Power the next year are you gonna say it is the SAME computer two years later? Remember the current W10M are not even a 64bit OS and one day the core OS will be rewrite(so which part of the bare bone will be the same?), batches and batches of devices will be washed out and left behind. Keep the same name means NOTHING, you can do a live update all the way from windows 1.0 to windows 8. Will that make you say the windows 8 is the "never be complete" windows 1.0?

MSFT have it's big plan and no matter it's a good one or not they are moving toward that way. However, over-bluffing it wouldn't cover the fact that they are making the steps way too slow than people expected.

 

[a5cent]

The difference between WP8/W10M are not that big. They both are same 32bit NT core same as Win8/Win10 and that's why W10M can take WP8 native apps without using emulator

This isn't true.

Apps don't interact directly with the kernel at all. You can completely replace the kernel and still have the exact same apps run unaltered (and without emulation) on that OS. In fact, something similar has been common for the past 20 years. It's why Java and .NET applications can run unaltered (and without emulation) on both Windows and Linux, despite both OSes having completely different kernels. W10M apps are .NET apps, so the same applies there.

There being no direct interaction between apps and the kernel is also one of the prerequisites for projects like Xamarin to work, where the same code base can be used to create apps for iOS, Android and WP/WM (without requiring emulation).

My point is that this is in no way an indicator of how big the differences between WP8 and W10M are.

The difference between WP8/W10M are not that big. <snipped> From UX aspect, current W10M are just a fact-lift WP8 with UWP support. Overall, I don't think the difference is bigger than a major version update in iOS/Android.

From both a consumer's and a developer's point of view, one might argue that the differences between WP8 and W10M aren't that big, but under the hood they are huge. The developers at MS who worked on WP8 tried their best to make it look like the OS was identical or at least very similar to W8 (by supporting the same APIs), but it just looked that way. Much of the code base those developers worked with/on was completely separate and different from that used by the W8 team. With W10M that has changed. Now the code base is actually the same.

As long as you're judging WP8 and W10M on the basis of what they actually are, rather than what they look like from a developer's point of view, the changes are probably the biggest we've ever seen a commercial OS make from one version to the next.

 

[triageatdawn]

It's perfectly clear that there's no use complaining about it, MS has made its decision to exit the consumer market - there's nothing else to it. I honestly wasn't expecting that the retrenchment they were talking about was going to be what we see now but it wasn't too surprising to me either.
Yes, I can't help but feel indeed disappointed, I wish the situation was different but all you can do right now is give up on your (hopefully) lowered expectations and move on.
I'm really fond of Lumia hardware and that's the only WM hardware I'll be sticking to until MS releases something that's in my vicinity and has what I need. Luckily for me, I'm not that kind of person who has to catch up with the latest hardware every year. I'm pretty sure there's lots of people within the consumer space who think differently - and that's completely fine, there's nothing wrong with that. There are always other options like iOS and Android so stating that there are no other choices is simply irrelevant, wouldn't you think?

This site exists because of Microsoft and I'm quite happy to be part of this small but friendly community. Wouldn't want my experience to be tarnished with negativity and despair you know.

 

[rockstarzzz]

You know that old saying where you give an infinite amount of monkeys a typewriter each and they'll reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare?

#TIL how those expert reviews are made.

 

[kaktus1389]

This site exists because of Microsoft and I'm quite happy to be part of this small but friendly community. Wouldn't want my experience to be tarnished with negativity and despair you know.

This is so true.
I stopped checking/replying on threads actively because of all negative comments, and it's always more and more people, but the core is always the same.
I do not know if they are aware that it's not entirely their choice of how the OS will be built but it is entirely their choice to pick a device that THEY want. And apparently, if they don't like Microsoft/Windows 10 Mobile, as you guys have already stated several times in this thread already, they should consider other choices out there including feature phones.

 

[PepperdotNet]

Windows Phone is dead, stick a fork in it. W10M is too different than WP8. W10M is not different enough than WP8. My old WP8 device didn't get upgraded. My device got upgraded and it's too slow/bugs. There are no apps. Satya Nadella should be fired. Universal apps are a farce. Snapchat.

There, I have fulfilled the requirement that every thread here must contain mention of the above things. Carry on.

Mad Cabbie and others, it made me cringe to type all that out. Thanks for the productive and positive discussion. Apologies, if needed, for my sick sense of sarcasm.

 

[Jakoh]

It was hard to swallow the WM10 bugs after the WP8 experience. I thought we had gotten far with WP8 and WM10 started everything all over again. So 7.5, 8, 10 all restarts.

 

[Krystianpants]

I think that w10m is not too bad given what they are trying to achieve. I have friends who complain about bugs on their iphone 6s's. Nothing is completely bug free due to the complex interactions all software takes. It's really about how often it happens and is it bad enough not to let it be your primary device.

The issue with merging the core into all devices is that the devices will require more power as a result. Redstone is quite a slow down on the 950XL versus production which carries a more phone specific core. There, of course, is time to optimize and we shall see what they can do with it. Also, the 64-bit infrastructure will help quite a bit and would even be valuable for the 950 series if there were a way for MS to allow users to get it done. VIA a tool that only MS store employees have or who knows.

MS just has problems communicating. When they make a statement people misread it because they are so vague. Then they have to follow up with more statements etc.. But I'll be the devils advocate and throw some thoughts your way.

1.) Windows as a service is being taken out of context. Windows 10 is indeed not finished. From the start Satya said it will be a 2 year endeavor. Windows 10 has a plan to be finished with Redstone 2. Then it will continue to act as a service where features are added and patches are continuously applied. While it is currently a service it is not the finished and matured product that the original plan intended. So no, windows 10 is not finished. It will be finished with redstone 2. Then it will be enhanced afterwards and fixes/patches will continue to roll out as issues are encountered. But the general OS is not finished and to use the "Windows as a service" term to justify it not being finished is silly. It's not. That simple.

2.) Regardless of Market share, or if fans are the only target market, MS has sold users devices which they expect to use as their daily drivers. They have no excuse not to issue fixes quickly for bugs that keep people from using their phones daily. If you look at Apples model, they fix bugs pretty quickly and issue updates as quickly as they can. MS, however is split between working on newer Redstone builds and then putting time into current production builds. They need to put everything down and fix the production bugs that are important, issue them to the world not just to insiders and then they can continue working on Redstone. It's one thing to have bugs than affect your primary phone if you're on pre-release software but it shouldn't be like this with production software. And Reddit has lots of users who have disclosed some of the really bad bugs they suffer, even with native windows 10 devices.

There shouldn't be any hard resets either. MS needs to figure it out. I don't think I've ever heard of any of my friends needing a hard reset on their apple device that is running production software. Heck I have an iphone 6 that I don't really use but it runs like it should and no reseting after updates or anything.

3.) MS is destroying its reputation. Reputation is exactly what makes people HATE on a company. They started doing well with rebuilding their rep after Satya took the helm. Now with forced upgrades, changes to services on the fly, even disobeying rules on other platforms by using notifications for ADS, it's getting a bit ridiculous. Those who conspired that windows 10 is a spyware OS are being justified with all the crazy stuff MS is doing. Seriously. You want people to move over? Put features and apps in the windows store that will drive users, don't just force them using questionable techniques. Don't bother them constantly. There may be a reason they don't want to move over. Now if these people eventually get to a point of buying new hardware, they may avoid windows based hardware because of the bad experience they had. Let windows 10 gain share naturally, create more UWP apps/games, take a hit and sell more windows 10 hardware through insane sales. Heck communicate more and discuss windows 10 and put all the conspiracy to bed. Get some PR people to setup an interview on CNN and discuss everything. Apologize on national TV regarding the windows 10 fiasco and explain why things went the way they did. Posting something on twitter is likely only going to make it to tech sites which not all users read.

Anyways, just a few thoughts. There is a lot of controversy regarding windows 10 these days. Even in the comedy world there's lots of humor about it being forced on people. It's just not good.

 

[RumoredNow]

It's perfectly clear that there's no use complaining about it, MS has made its decision to exit the consumer market - there's nothing else to it.

That's a fallacy, to my understanding of what is going on.

A) Microsoft is developing "reference devices" commonly called "surface phone" in preproduction rumors. I've not seen a solid indicator that this is being halted. Just lots of FUD from click-bait articles and some users in the forums.
B) Microsoft is committed to W10M for "years to come." But again we see more FUD spreading about how it's all "ending." If you look at the rate of development and the pace of OTA pushes to Insider Rings that should be all the refutation needed.
C) The Nokia > Microsoft strategy of flooding the market with incrementally different devices in multiple at every price point and squeezing out all other OEMs was obviously not the answer. It never netted much market share. Microsoft is intentionally contracting phone manufacture and dumping the (unwanted) feature phone assets and capacity (that they were obligated to absorb under the Nokia Devices buy up). So this feeds more FUD and click-bait headlines.
D) Consumer marketing is being ceded to OEMs and Microsoft is actively working with them to bring more W10M dedicated hardware to general market.

Here's what I see. Thoughtful restructuring under a continuing strategy to unify every screen size under a common OS. This is a long game. Continuing to hemorrhage money and waste resources under a failed model doesn't help the long game and it is time to abandon that short game. I'm not an expert, but it should be clear to any layperson that this shift in strategy will not happen instantaneously.


The internet is great. It brings you a ton of information. Research is fantastically advanced and more possible now than ever before.

The internet is a curse. It bombards you with with quick snippets and more and more often entities try and grab our attention with sensationalism.

I'd urge you to dig a bit deeper than the Title Of The Moment articles and see if you can reach a different assessment. I can definitely confirm that many users, blogs and news organs are pushing that same view: "MS has made its decision to exit the consumer market." It just doesn't line up with the information I see when I try and dig deeper into these issues to form an opinion of my own, rather than relying on headlines that lead to a 2-3 paragraph article that seems to be more of a vehicle for ad servers than actual investigative content.

 

[triageatdawn]

That's a fallacy, to my understanding of what is going on.

I strongly believe that you completely misunderstood my point. How could you possibly assume so just by looking at one sentence from my entire post?

A) Microsoft is developing "reference devices" commonly called "surface phone" in preproduction rumors. I've not seen a solid indicator that this is being halted. Just lots of FUD from click-bait articles and some users in the forums.

My thoughts exactly.

B) Microsoft is committed to W10M for "years to come." But again we see more FUD spreading about how it's all "ending." If you look at the rate of development and the pace of OTA pushes to Insider Rings that should be all the refutation needed.

Of course it's not ending, I've never thought otherwise. That is exactly why I said many times that we need to stay positive for the sake of its future.

C) The Nokia > Microsoft strategy of flooding the market with incrementally different devices in multiple at every price point and squeezing out all other OEMs was obviously not the answer. It never netted much market share. Microsoft is intentionally contracting phone manufacture and dumping the (unwanted) feature phone assets and capacity (that they were obligated to absorb under the Nokia Devices buy up). So this feeds more FUD and click-bait headlines.

Couldn't agree more. I completely understand why they're doing what they're doing.

D) Consumer marketing is being ceded to OEMs and Microsoft is actively working with them to bring more W10M dedicated hardware to general market.

The only thing I'll be missing is Microsoft's mobile hardware. Like I said, I'm quite fond of it. I chose to stick with my Lumias until MS decides to step back into the emerging markets again. No hard feelings.

Here's what I see. Thoughtful restructuring under a continuing strategy to unify every screen size under a common OS. This is a long game. Continuing to hemorrhage money and waste resources under a failed model doesn't help the long game and it is time to abandon that short game. I'm not an expert, but it should be clear to any layperson that this shift in strategy will not happen instantaneously.

I realized that 14 months ago.

The internet is great. It brings you a ton of information. Research is fantastically advanced and more possible now than ever before.

The internet is a curse. It bombards you with with quick snippets and more and more often entities try and grab our attention with sensationalism.

I'd urge you to dig a bit deeper than the Title Of The Moment articles and see if you can reach a different assessment. I can definitely confirm that many users, blogs and news organs are pushing that same view: "MS has made its decision to exit the consumer market." It just doesn't line up with the information I see when I try and dig deeper into these issues to form an opinion of my own, rather than relying on headlines that lead to a 2-3 paragraph article that seems to be more of a vehicle for ad servers than actual investigative content.

Nicely said. The way I see it, the media is just a tool. I stumble across all kind of things, read what I find interesting and remember what's truly relevant. I simply trust my intellect and ability to respond selectively and rationally to whatever/whoever is in front of me. Which is why I'm a regular visitor of this site.

Perhaps I've done a poor job of justifying my observations up there. Maybe I should've typed out a longer read to make things more clear instead of summarizing everything. But even so, you can't get the full picture just by looking at one segment from my post. The way I express myself on the Internet is far from perfect and sometimes too hard to understand. Or so they say. Sorry about that.

When it comes to Microsoft's decision we're discussing here - it doesn't matter whether someone thinks it's good or bad. Microsoft didn't make it overnight. They do what they believe is right. Being overly negative about everything and complaining about it because of the disappointment is not going to change their mind. Hence why I said it's pointless.

As seen on the main page:
The company is pulling out of the highly-competitive (and oversaturated) consumer market and building a base around business and enterprise.

I never said they will never come back. Didn't say it was irreversibly over either. I am fully aware of what's going on. The world keeps spinning so it's completely fine. Cheers!

 

[PepperdotNet]

Getting your technology news from click-bait bloggers is equivalent to expecting in-depth hard news analysis from the National Enquirer.

 

[anon(8532178)]

Getting your technology news from click-bait bloggers is equivalent to expecting in-depth hard news analysis from the National Enquirer.

Lol

Posted via the Windows Central App for Android (V10 or 5x)

 

[ArtificiallyYours]

In the grand scheme of things journalistic integrity is put second to your recognition of the strongest paying corporation; Engadget is an example of a tech blog that, while it was never at the top of its game, devolved into something morosely obsessed with there being less competition to Samsung and Apple. What's worse is they put a constant and underhanded political spin against Microsoft despite how long gone their Antitrust dispute years are. Microsoft does have a near-total grip on home computers but that's from decades of products and services Apple also used to an extent. I don't know where these projections come from that Microsoft is a "stubborn grandpa" like they've implied numerous times. They can't just leave it at "Microsoft is a Software Company, not hardware" instead of aiming for the low-hanging fruit. A real fight does not consist of punching someone in the balls and running away like a coward.

What Engadget (Or what any tech-political blog) devolved into was goading a scapegoat view on companies they are paid to write for or against, hyperbole attracts more uninterested readers not caring the least about what phone or tablet they use. Engadget focuses on the rough and tumble political fallacies most big-name "news" outlets stick to for page hits, including sexually lewd opinion pieces rendering them blocked by work servers due to NSFW content. Point is Engadget used to view Google, Microsoft, and Apple on the same level until their buyout extended to replacing authors without our knowledge.

Every day I check up on Engadget to see what kind of idiotic spin they put on things not because of their (not so well informed) articles of today. Nobody cares about cultural or gender-equal emoji's, or how "cheap" Microsoft is for giving out a free replacement Lumia to someone who almost died in a car accident. Nobody cares about sexual harassment over app development, the internet isn't going to change for a group of individuals. To be frank no serious reader and successful businessperson cares about how 'evil' a corporation is, they have a more successful existence than a pansy basement dweller.

The Verge is even worse than Engadget, they want zero competition in any corporate space whether it be Apple or... Well, anyone who isn't #1 on FORBES in consumer technology. Watch any of their comparison videos, there is no comparison between Apple/Samsung/Google NEXUS, just how they pale to market recognition of one single brand. They make fun of people with realistic needs and wants instead of just writing a humble disagreement, Apple "just works" and that makes your argument invalid.

In short there is little to no integrity with sellout, mainstream media. I hope Engadget and the Verge choke on it hard.

 

[a5cent]

^ I just want to point out that the main reason so many gadget blogs (I won't call them tech sites anymore since they are rarely technical) regularly appear biased towards specific corporations isn't arbitrary or a result of their staff all loving the same products. It's about money and access! Apple and Samsung have marketing budgets that surpass all the other player's budgets combined. Many gadget bloggers depend on those advertising dollars to survive, so it is in their best interest to adapt their messaging (nobody bites the hand that feeds them). Apple is known to take this all the way. A gadget blogger who is too negative in their review of a new Apple product risks no longer being invited to Apple's press events, and no longer recieving review hardware. For such websites, objectivity literally doesn't pay. It's the exact same problem with todays' cable propaganda corporations (I won't call them news corporations anymore). An act of independent journalism is a very rare thing, because nobody pays for that.