W10M and the anti OS brigade

[direktorn]

I'm surprised to see (yes this might be an US habit) so many that need to back-up their own decision "hey!, i picked up a WP and therefore I need to convince everyone else that they are idiots otherwise I will look like one".

Taking this approach is just showing that I'm a moron and "demanding" that other show proof about how they took the wrong path is just a imho trolls view of things.

 

[direktorn]

Wrong, dead wrong! Windows Mobile had roughly 65% market share before Blackberry became the must-have device. Then BB took the lion's share until the iPhone caught on and that only lasted until Android took off.

I have been looking for evidence that Microsoft had 65% marketshare, they never had, not even if you narrow it down to "smart phones", nor if you include the "corporate" space.

 

[fatclue_98]

I have been looking for evidence that Microsoft had 65% marketshare, they never had, not even if you narrow it down to "smart phones", nor if you include the "corporate" space.

You're not looking hard enough. Every single UPS delivery driver and every single merchandiser (just to cite 2 examples) that you see with those pistol-shaped handhelds are using a Windows Mobile 6.5 device. Symbol/Motorola have a stranglehold on the barcode marketplace and because of the resistive touchscreens, they're the go-to source for signature capture. Here's one to really knock your socks off: go to Symbol's website and you'll see there's still active firmware and software support for these WinMo devices with regular updates in 2016.

 

[Marconis4]

You know what I dislike? People who complain about other users complaining. I'm a consumer. I paid for this device. Yeah, I paid for it knowing that it was a "work in progress" and guess what, I'm a diehard MSFT/WM fan. You want backup? How am I supposed to eloquently explain how my photo app crashes every time I attach a photo to a message? Or that Edge doesn't fully load a page more often than not? Or that my notifications don't always appear on the home screen? Do you want more? There's nothing to "back up". Problems exist, but users like you take this as "constant complaining".

To constantly use the excuse that WM10 is a work in progress is incredibly boring and, quite frankly, a cop out. I AM going along for the ride because I'm not that thrilled about iOS or Android. But for anyone to not be annoyed at the fact that MSFT has taken 5000 updates to get something right is pathetic, and you know it.

 

[zhris]

Wrong, dead wrong! Windows Mobile had roughly 65% market share before Blackberry became the must-have device. Then BB took the lion's share until the iPhone caught on and that only lasted until Android took off.

You're not looking hard enough. Every single UPS delivery driver and every single merchandiser (just to cite 2 examples) that you see with those pistol-shaped handhelds are using a Windows Mobile 6.5 device. Symbol/Motorola have a stranglehold on the barcode marketplace and because of the resistive touchscreens, they're the go-to source for signature capture. Here's one to really knock your socks off: go to Symbol's website and you'll see there's still active firmware and software support for these WinMo devices with regular updates in 2016.

(emphasis mine)
I'm confused, exactly what 'market' are we talking about, smartphones or bar code scanners?. Do you have any any links that show that any Windows Phone OS (WinCE, PocketPC, WinMo, etc) had a majority share of the smartphone pie at any time?

 

[RumoredNow]

You know what I dislike? People who complain about other users complaining.

I'm quoting the above simply as a springboard. It is not in any way meant to be aimed directly at the member who made the statement.


This is a truly vicious cycle.

Complaints feeding complaints about complainers who then complain that they are complained against which generates more complaints. (Or something like that, I hope readers get the idea.)

Here's the deal:
Should someone have the right to complain? Yes
Should there be open discussion on this site? Yes
Should free speech be a consideration? Yes
Should forum members try and be a bit more tolerant of each other? Yes

Do some users seemingly only post negativity? Yes
Does that get tiring to read over and over? Yes

Does pushing the same negative outlook at every turn become counterproductive to a good discussion at some point? Yes
Does keeping yourself at a point of aggravation every time you read and post detract from this site? Yes

Are we hearing from users that they now avoid the forums because of the flood of negativity? Yes

When the number of daily views suffer because it is so negative, should that concern all members? Yes


Personally, I'm not against someone having an opinion. I am against reading that opinion every time I see them post. It gets old. Move along. If there isn't any advancement of the conversation what's the point?

There has to be some balance. The name of the site is "Windows Central," not "Windows Is Bad Central."

Is the bad part of the whole? Yes
Did you have your say about that? Yes? Then why belabor it?

I don't think it is anyone's business to try and convert others to loving Windows. I also believe that it is wrong to try and convert others into being Windows haters... We each should be finding what works for us personally. Let the others look out for themselves.

The strife comes in when you believe yours is the only relevant view and you are, by jiminy, going to hammer that point home come heck or high water. In case I'm not being clear that goes for both sides of the issue: "Windows saved my life" or "Windows killed my kitten."

Think about the conversation in the thread... Are you contributing to it or are you on a personal crusade?

Please, let's all be contributors.

 

[anon(50597)]

There's such a variety of different phones and software today that I don't understand the need to stick with something you hate. While I'm using Android most of the time, I am enjoying trying out W10 mobile as something different. Variety is the spice of life and I will not tie myself down to only one platform. Don't like Windows? Try something else.

 

[fatclue_98]

(emphasis mine)
I'm confused, exactly what 'market' are we talking about, smartphones or bar code scanners?. Do you have any any links that show that any Windows Phone OS (WinCE, PocketPC, WinMo, etc) had a majority share of the smartphone pie at any time?

I was replying to another member who decided to bring the corporate world into the conversation. Motorola's Enterprise Digital Assistants (EDA) are alone in their field. They own 100% of the market and since they're equipped with telephony, I'd say they're smarter than any phone in use today. We can split hairs all day on what a smartphone is or isn't, but at the end of the day a mobile handheld computer with the ability to place and receive phone calls via normal civilian carriers is a smartphone. The numbers may not be readily available because they're so far removed from the mainstream that no one considers them. It's no different than police cars and taxis. Ford Crown Victorias were produced in far greater numbers than any other domestic vehicle. But because they weren't sold and registered through normal retail channels, they're not counted for manufacturer's bragging rights. To put it into perspective, Ford had to alter one digit from their VIN series (P71 to P7B) to allow more units.

Normal retail sales don't always tell the full story.

 

[zhris]

I was replying to another member who decided to bring the corporate world into the conversation. Motorola's Enterprise Digital Assistants (EDA) are alone in their field. They own 100% of the market and since they're equipped with telephony, I'd say they're smarter than any phone in use today. We can split hairs all day on what a smartphone is or isn't, but at the end of the day a mobile handheld computer with the ability to place and receive phone calls via normal civilian carriers is a smartphone. The numbers may not be readily available because they're so far removed from the mainstream that no one considers them. It's no different than police cars and taxis. Ford Crown Victorias were produced in far greater numbers than any other domestic vehicle. But because they weren't sold and registered through normal retail channels, they're not counted for manufacturer's bragging rights. To put it into perspective, Ford had to alter one digit from their VIN series (P71 to P7B) to allow more units.

Normal retail sales don't always tell the full story.

The defense rests, your honor.

 

[zhris]

There's such a variety of different phones and software today that I don't understand the need to stick with something you hate. While I'm using Android most of the time, I am enjoying trying out W10 mobile as something different. Variety is the spice of life and I will not tie myself down to only one platform. Don't like Windows? Try something else.

True that. I have a L640 and I love it, but I simply can't do what I need to do on it, so my Note4 is my daily driver. Reluctantly, of course, but if WinMo ever gains any steam I'd drop Android in a heartbeat.

 

[smithy_dll]

I get the feels in this thread some great discussion and opinions. The general sentiment is spot on, from Microsoft to "technology" bloggers. I just registered to post this and have been recently disgusted in the click bait that has reached the front page of WinBeta and the apparent disappearance of Zac Bowden so I was happy to hear he will be coming to Windows Central soon. Reading Zac's excitement for each new Windows 10 build was refreshing and I miss it.

The reality is people need to be paid and will appease the stable master to continue getting paid. That is why we don't see objective reviews of Apple devices from the large websites. I am happy to recommend the best product for a user, and it has been impossible for me to recommend a Windows phone to anyone in the past. I hope Windows 10 Redstone wave 2 fixes that because there is some great development happening. I have always had problems recommending the iPad, and have influenced no less than 8 Surface Pro 3 purchases from other people. It shows that you are never late to the party if you have the right product. It just hasn't been long enough for Microsoft to make a phone in their own right, engineering lifecycles take time, and the general public (of which technology bloggers belong) never get to see about it, never realise it and wonder why they can't have what they want now. In the Apple camp it took 30 months from 2004 to 2007 to develop the first iPhone. For Microsoft we are at the 26 month point since the Nokia acquisition. It took Google 32 months from finalising the deal with Motorola to make the purely Google Moto X. Microsoft tried to shortcut every step of the way since the planning stages of WP7 and it has completely backfired on them. Now they are doing the sensible slow and steady path with Windows 10.

I have zero surprise that nearly everyone at Microsoft Mobile in Finland has been made redundant. I wrote about it on my blog.

American acquisitions of overseas companies typically go two ways. Either the entity is left doing what they were doing before hand, or more commonly they are integrated, a cultural war of "not invented here" syndrome quietly bubbles away until the foreign trouble makers are shown the door. In the case of Microsoft vs. Nokia, just about everyone from Microsoft Mobile in Finland has lost their job as Microsoft realised they don't need them. Aside from history warning signs of this happening date back to 2015 where Microsoft restructured Microsoft Mobile expanding the porfolio of Panos Panay beyond Surface to all Microsoft Premium Devices (Surface, Windows Mobiles, and Xbox). Panos Panay needs to see the product evolve and the Surface team are well equipped at Redmond to take over Windows Mobile.

Disclosure, I use an iPhone for specific reasons that Windows Phone was unable fulfil. I love C# and love it more than any other language. I even bought a Lumia 530 to play with Windows Phone development and found it more frustrating than it should have been. I eventually had to replace with a Lumia 640 to continue getting Windows 10 Mobile insider builds, and I LOVE the Windows 10 UAP API. It is so easy to develop for and versatile and MVVM isn't even required. I was disappointed with the Lumia 950 and will continue to keep my aging iPhone 5c until I see the next wave of Windows 10 Mobile hardware, or its back to Android (don't get me started on how much I dislike what Google has done to the AOSP and Google services lock in).

 

[Peter Zanutto GSC]

(emphasis mine)
I'm confused, exactly what 'market' are we talking about, smartphones or bar code scanners?. Do you have any any links that show that any Windows Phone OS (WinCE, PocketPC, WinMo, etc) had a majority share of the smartphone pie at any time?

You definitely aren't looking hard enough. Here is a link showing numbers just for the retail channel. It shows a peak of 42% and as has been pointed out here does not include all the other smartphone like devices that used various flavors of Windows Mobile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile

 

[Ten Four]

Personally, I don't get worked up about the haters and trolls--just skimming along it is easy to quickly pick up on the gist of a post and whether or not it is worth reading. What is amazing is to think that some people have the time to waste posting nothing but hate. Apparently doing it gives them some pleasure, but it is hard to imagine what their lives must be like. I am not a "fan" or a "hater" of any operating system or company producing them. I use everything from Windows 7-10, to Android, to a little iOS, to various flavors of Linux. My phone is currently a Lumia 640 running W10 and overall the experience is good, but there are lots of bugs. However, I also own an Android phone and the Google ecosystem is very appealing. Google Docs performs better than online Office, though I prefer Outlook.com to Gmail. I use both for various reasons. It doesn't have to be one system, one phone, one computing platform--use what is best for your own purposes!

 

[davebwi]

Well, The world is/has changed. It used to be that if you didn't like someone running for office you just didn't vote for them. Now for some reason people feel the need to protest the candidate they don't like. Seem familiar?? anyway I , and 7 of my colleagues own Lumia 950's. we all like them , but the APP gap for banking is starting to make people weary. I still think the Consumer market is not lost. the ease of use for Windows 10 mobile versus the completion is exceptional in my opinion..

 

[Ten Four]

It used to be that if you didn't like someone running for office you just didn't vote for them. Now for some reason people feel the need to protest the candidate they don't like.

OT, but you couldn't be more wrong. In the past candidates endured virulent criticism. I guess you weren't around in the '60s when protestors were being shot and killed, when eggs and other stuff were thrown at candidates, and expressing your political views at school often meant a rumble.

 

[zhris]

You definitely aren't looking hard enough. Here is a link showing numbers just for the retail channel. It shows a peak of 42% and as has been pointed out here does not include all the other smartphone like devices that used various flavors of Windows Mobile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile

I stand corrected. Granted, the year it hit 42% (2007), Android didn't even exist and iOS had just launched, and the next year WinMo was overtaken by Blackberry and has lost market share every year since then, but yes, 2007 was a very good year for Microsoft.

 

[direktorn]

You're not looking hard enough. Every single UPS delivery driver and every single merchandiser (just to cite 2 examples) that you see with those pistol-shaped handhelds are using a Windows Mobile 6.5 device. Symbol/Motorola have a stranglehold on the barcode marketplace and because of the resistive touchscreens, they're the go-to source for signature capture. Here's one to really knock your socks off: go to Symbol's website and you'll see there's still active firmware and software support for these WinMo devices with regular updates in 2016.

Sure, there are devices, and, every nuclear plant is running windows 2000. But considering this: There are about 4.6 BILLION phones out there, UPS has 400k employees, they have to grow in a quite large factor to even be hitting the 1% marketshare..



As you can see MS has never had a higher marketshare than 10%, a bit off the 65%.. Symbian however has reached 65% - Thats impressive, and that, just guessing now it thanks to Nokia, HP and others who build enterprise devices for retail etc.

 

[a5cent]

View attachment 127276

I'm not disputing your main point. I'm not aware of the old Windows Mobile ever achieving 65% market share either.

However, THAT GRAPH MAKES MY EYES HURT!

Android runs on much more than just phones, so comparing to the iPhone seems useless. Microsoft and Blackberry are company names, but Symbian is an OS, and only one of Nokia's many mobile OS offerings, so shouldn't we be comparing to Nokia instead? Finally, the term "iPhone" refers to a smartphone brand name (like Lumia) and isn't similar to anything else on that graph.

Calling that an apples to oranges comparison is far too kind. Whoever made that graph was far too confused to be trusted with anything related to computer technology, consumer electronics, or statistics. The only place a graph like that should be on display is in a trash bin. Sorry...off topic... but had to be said...

Here's a far superior alternative:




(source = gartner)

 

[smithy_dll]

Has anyone considered that Blackberry was only popular because they had a very good sales team that convinced people and companies that they needed to route their organisations e-mail through Blackberry infrastructure to get push e-mail. All enterprises running Exchange Server had to do was deploy devices with native Exchange ActiveSync, at first that was Windows Mobile, but that quickly became anyone who paid the per device license fee, Apple, Android, etc... Business users can't live without real time e-mail alerts. They don't care about Snapchat, Skype, etc..., but as a consumer I do.

 

[aimulaidni]

I think we should be careful about labelling those who dislike W10M as "resistant to change". It's a lazy way to dismiss their arguments.

I really dislike using W10M, but I'm not resistant to change. On the contrary, for much of my career in the telecommunications industry I drove change, and by nature I'm impatient for change.

However, like all reasonable people, I only like change if it is change for the better, or at least not a change for the worse. A change for the worse is making progress backwards, right?

My dislike of W10M is solely to do with the user interface. User interfaces are basically subjective experiences, so I do not insist that my opinion is correct. But I can say for sure that FOR ME using W10M is less pleasant than using WP8.1. Thus I mourn the passing of WP8.1's beautiful, elegant and innovative design language, and regret Microsoft's well-publicised decision to deliberately make W10M look and work more like Android and iOS.

I reserve the right to express those views, although I hope I've never thrust them down anyone's throat. And holding those views does NOT mean I am a Luddite and can thus be dismissed with a sneer.

After several months of using W10M on my Lumia 1520, I reverted it back to WP8.1. My big concern is that when my Lumia eventually dies, I won't be able to find a phone that I like using. FOR ME, Android and iOS feel clunky and old fashioned, like something from the last century. And now that W10M has got more like them (it feels like Android-with-live-tiles to me), I'll be stuck with buying a phone that I don't like.

I'm telling you this because I bet there are lots of people who feel exactly the same way.

This. I really hate using WM10, complemented by the boring design of the 950XL. And like you said, it basically feels like android now with the live tiles. Even though I hate using it, I don't have a choice because I hate android and ios even more. There is not a single second that goes by when I don't think of selling my phone and getting either the 1520 or the 930, but the only thing holding me back is the camera. Not saying the camera on the 1520 and 930 is bad, just that the camera on the 950XL is really good. And like you, I have the same concern-that I would have to buy a phone that I don't like using in the future because there will be no other option, atleast considering the direction WM10 is headed.