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08-05-2016 01:19 PM
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  1. Snowbooks1419's Avatar
    As some of you may already know, the "Year 2038 Problem" refers to a predicted event in which many (if not all) 32-bit devices will stop working due to a bug with the UNIX timestamp. However, Windows 10 Mobile is currently 32-bit. If I got a Windows 10 Mobile phone (with a 64-bit processor like the 950 or 950 XL, so that a 32-bit processor wouldn't be an issue), would the fact that Windows 10 Mobile is 32-bit mean that it would stop working in 2038?
    07-29-2016 12:49 PM
  2. PGrey's Avatar
    Seriously?
    I get the need, to move everything up to 64-bit eventually, in particular for memory and SD card issues, but I think I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that you won't have to worry about this for 2038. I worked on some of the first Windows 64-bit machines, the old MIPS and Alpha boxes, back in the day, which was nifty, and good stuff for business, but our biggest worry was again storage/memory architecture, not a date (okay maybe 2000, except that as a s/w and h/w engineer, I knew most of that was bogus anyway).
    At the very least, think back 22 years, to 1994. How many electronic devices (other than MAYBE a radio or washing machine, debatable things anyway) are you using from then?
    I have an old HP Jornada Windows CE device, if anyone's interested, in a nifty 32-bit device? ;-]

    -pete
    07-29-2016 01:53 PM
  3. xandros9's Avatar
    I believe that the OS is still 32-bit so I'm willing to wager the issue persists.

    That's 22-something years away though! The first issue would be making them last that long. I presume its possible and not too hard, but how useful will they be I wonder. Will we look at them the way we look at Treo's today? But yea considering I could probably break out my 2001 m500 and use it makes me wonder how it'll turn out in the future.

    Who knows, maybe AT&T will be looking at a 4G network shutdown in favor of 5G or Email has evolved so much Exchange Activesync and IMAP are alien. But I think we'll still have that 2038 time issue if it affects Windows 10 Mobile.
    07-29-2016 11:29 PM
  4. EspHack's Avatar
    4gb ram wont be enough for anything in a few years, so I VERY HIGHLY EXTREMELY UBER ULTRA SUPER DUPER doubt that the problem will affect us in 22 years
    07-30-2016 02:42 AM
  5. rhapdog's Avatar
    As some of you may already know, the "Year 2038 Problem" refers to a predicted event in which many (if not all) 32-bit devices will stop working due to a bug with the UNIX timestamp. However, Windows 10 Mobile is currently 32-bit. If I got a Windows 10 Mobile phone (with a 64-bit processor like the 950 or 950 XL, so that a 32-bit processor wouldn't be an issue), would the fact that Windows 10 Mobile is 32-bit mean that it would stop working in 2038?
    4gb ram wont be enough for anything in a few years, so I VERY HIGHLY EXTREMELY UBER ULTRA SUPER DUPER doubt that the problem will affect us in 22 years
    Yeah, I remember back in the 60s and 70s, the people writing software new good and well that there would be an issue in the year 2000. However, it was so far away, they all had the attitude that "nobody will be using this in 30+ years." Amazing how so many never upgraded their mainframe computer from the 70s and never replaced their software in all that time. Then again, when you spend more than $10 million dollars on a computer and software, you expect it to last.

    However, Microsoft is already working on 64-bit versions of Windows 10 Mobile. It won't be that difficult, since it shares the same core as Windows 10 which already has a 64-bit counterpart. It is already possible to compile it, but it just isn't seen as needed as yet.

    Why is Microsoft still using 32-bit for Mobile? Because the 64-bit version has a higher RAM and storage requirement for the exact same apps, meaning you would be required to install more storage and RAM into each device, which will in turn drive up the price out of reach for the average consumer while making enthusiasts very happy. Well, the enthusiasts are too small a percentage of the already too small percentage of Windows 10 Mobile users.

    It's coming within the next few years, don't worry. And if you're still using the same phone in 20 years, well, it won't function on the networks. Verizon has already stated intentions and begun work on migrating away from CDMA in favor of LTE and 5G. 5G, 6G, or something else will have replaced everything by then. There will no longer be access to 2G. GSM and CDMA will both go away within 20 years and everything will run off the higher speed standards. That means you'll need a new phone, and by the time that happens, it will be 64-bit long before and we won't have this issue.

    Bigger issue than the date? The fact that GSM and CDMA will be obsolete in 20 years. While my phone from 20 years ago still functions fine, I can't use it because the radio is no longer supported for calls. The phone doesn't even do texts, so don't get me started on it.
    07-30-2016 05:57 AM
  6. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    22 years from now, the famed Nokia 3310 will still be functioning and breaking things
    07-30-2016 06:59 AM
  7. Bobvfr's Avatar
    I will be in my eighties and probably wont care about it anyway...........................
    07-30-2016 07:00 AM
  8. Zulfigar's Avatar
    So, curiosity sake, but why the year 2038? I mean, I remember the year 2000 (older computers weren't programmed with the year 2000 in mind, so it got a little funky, but nothing too horrible), but why 2038?
    abhishek singh21 and xandros9 like this.
    07-30-2016 10:52 AM
  9. Ma Rio's Avatar
    So, curiosity sake, but why the year 2038? I mean, I remember the year 2000 (older computers weren't programmed with the year 2000 in mind, so it got a little funky, but nothing too horrible), but why 2038?
    Unix time. It's the number of seconds that have passed from 1-1-1970. It's stored as an integer value. Currently it's 1 469 895 807. The problem occours since 32-bit machines allow integers to have a max value of 2^32. Unix time is stored in signed binary (and for that reason you can store only 2^31 which is 2 147 483 648 which is 1-19-2038). Now.. if only they have used unsigned integers, we would have time until 2100 to figure it out.

    Here's a GIF of that moment.
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...38_problem.gif
    07-30-2016 11:30 AM
  10. PGrey's Avatar
    Yeah, I'll be pushing 80, Bobvfr has a great point there.

    It's 2038, because of wrap-around (simple version), 32 bit won't be enough to go from 1901 beyond that date. You can look up the Wiki or similar if you're bored/interested ;-]
    Edit Wiki pointer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

    There are undoubtedly embedded things that will be an issue then, but not our phones.
    And like EspHack mentions, 4GB is a much bigger concern than any other issue, really.

    The seriously scary thing has probably more to do with things like medical devices and military stuff, that could still be in use then, but fails to function correctly at that date/time.

    RS was rumored to be 64, on capable phones, but something happened. Maybe it's the RAM issues/pricing mentioned above, maybe it's the "thunk" that's in the ARM chips and processing/power problems, I'm not sure, I haven't read into it much...
    This was a problem in x64/amd64 for awhile, until the processor manufacturers added calls for PhysToVirt and VirtToPhys, and made them part of the core, so that they were highly efficient, before that, there was was concern about thunks on desktop machines, and the big processing cost.

    I do remember having this big debate, and being marveled by the couple of 4GB machines, the debate being if we would ever actually need 4GB, for "real world computing", not just some big server ;-]
    07-30-2016 11:31 AM
  11. PGrey's Avatar
    Here's another great article, I remember working with Dave, which was truly frightening. I was helping OEMs on HAL work, and despite being significantly younger (and in theory, quicker, but not even close) than him, I struggled to follow and have good discussion with him, about changes we needed to look at, as we traversed this in the desktop:
    The engineer?s engineer: Computer industry luminaries salute Dave Cutler?s five-decade-long quest for quality | News Center

    -pete
    07-30-2016 11:47 AM
  12. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    Here's another great article, I remember working with Dave, which was truly frightening. I was helping OEMs on HAL work, and despite being significantly younger (and in theory, quicker, but not even close) than him, I struggled to follow and have good discussion with him, about changes we needed to look at, as we traversed this in the desktop:
    The engineer?s engineer: Computer industry luminaries salute Dave Cutler?s five-decade-long quest for quality | News Center

    -pete
    inspiring story - there truly are geniuses in the world
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    07-30-2016 12:39 PM
  13. Snowbooks1419's Avatar
    I found this interesting article (link here) which states that iOS and Android gray out any dates after January 19, 2038, "but that Windows Phone works correctly." (The article is from January 2013; since then, I believe that 64-bit versions of both iOS and Android have been released, and Windows Phone has been renamed.) Nevertheless, that reassuring article could be an indicator that Windows 10 Mobile hopefully won't have any problems with the Year 2038 bug! :)
    ananve and Chintan Gohel like this.
    07-30-2016 01:50 PM
  14. Shamshi-Adad's Avatar
    Seriously?
    I get the need, to move everything up to 64-bit eventually, in particular for memory and SD card issues, but I think I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that you won't have to worry about this for 2038. I worked on some of the first Windows 64-bit machines, the old MIPS and Alpha boxes, back in the day, which was nifty, and good stuff for business, but our biggest worry was again storage/memory architecture, not a date (okay maybe 2000, except that as a s/w and h/w engineer, I knew most of that was bogus anyway).
    At the very least, think back 22 years, to 1994. How many electronic devices (other than MAYBE a radio or washing machine, debatable things anyway) are you using from then?
    I have an old HP Jornada Windows CE device, if anyone's interested, in a nifty 32-bit device? ;-]

    -pete
    I've got my old Commodore 64 AND an AMIGA with the ram upgraded to 512K. Floppy drives, Monitors and even the mouse for the Amiga.
    I keep waiting for a call from the Smithsonian.

    Peace. Alan
    MS Lumia ICON 929 [Win10 M, Insider Preview, Redstone 14393.5]
    jmshub and Chintan Gohel like this.
    07-30-2016 01:52 PM
  15. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    My cellular data expires in 2036. That's really far away -would we even be settling on Mars then?
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    07-30-2016 02:28 PM
  16. Zulfigar's Avatar
    Thanks for all of the great information! :D
    07-30-2016 02:46 PM
  17. PGrey's Avatar
    I've got my old Commodore 64 AND an AMIGA with the ram upgraded to 512K. Floppy drives, Monitors and even the mouse for the Amiga.
    I keep waiting for a call from the Smithsonian.

    Peace. Alan
    MS Lumia ICON 929 [Win10 M, Insider Preview, Redstone 14393.5]
    Hah, I've got an old Sinclair (my first actual programming), and our old IIe (the first real significant programming I did, mostly assembly language), or my parents have the IIe anyway, and are trying to downsize and give it to me ;-] This was the only real Apple device I ever did much work on, and Apple probably doesn't even consider it theirs anymore.
    Everything in-between has long been jettisoned, but I'm hanging onto these, although the Smithsonian might convince me, gotta' love that place!

    My cellular data expires in 2036. That's really far away -would we even be settling on Mars then?
    There you have it, I bet they fix the 2038 issue by then, and you can find a used 3310.
    They'll probably have a cell-relay or similar from Mars, you're set!
    Last edited by xandros9; 07-30-2016 at 05:41 PM.
    07-30-2016 04:32 PM
  18. abhishek singh21's Avatar
    22 years is a long long time, that figure is over my age too. :3

    well first microsoft windows PC was released in 1985 , almost 21 years back and today if we look at the technology around us we have progressed so much. So stop thinking about it, the industry is already aware of it and will do their best to nullify the bug. Y2K isn't happening again ;D

    But when we are at it, the year 10,000 problem is also round the corner OMG xD
    Chintan Gohel likes this.
    07-31-2016 12:15 AM
  19. techiez's Avatar
    As some of you may already know, the "Year 2038 Problem" refers to a predicted event in which many (if not all) 32-bit devices will stop working due to a bug with the UNIX timestamp. However, Windows 10 Mobile is currently 32-bit. If I got a Windows 10 Mobile phone (with a 64-bit processor like the 950 or 950 XL, so that a 32-bit processor wouldn't be an issue), would the fact that Windows 10 Mobile is 32-bit mean that it would stop working in 2038?
    Would MS be keeping W10M alive by then or it would have launched a android launcher by then.
    07-31-2016 01:58 AM
  20. EspHack's Avatar
    lol they already have a launcher
    xandros9 and Shamshi-Adad like this.
    07-31-2016 01:59 AM
  21. Cory Nelson's Avatar
    Chiming in here as a systems developer with a couple decades of experience...

    Your CPU's architecture does not dictate the size of numbers used by software. By using literally the same basic arithmetic we learn in school, computers can build a 64-bit number from two 32-bit numbers, just like we can build a larger number from two or more of our 0-9 digits.

    The three common modern OSes -- Linux, Mac, and Windows -- have all used 64-bit times internally for a decade or more, even on 32-bit hardware. Now, some poorly made software could potentially be assuming it is 32-bit, and this will be the source of any issues come the year 2038 -- not the OS itself, but the apps running on it.

    C has a time_t type (the source of the "2038 problem") that has traditionally been 32-bit, but does not have to be an in fact in virtually every modern compiler it is now 64-bit.

    Windows has the SYSTEMTIME and FILETIME types that it uses internally since Windows 2000 which can represent a range of over 30,000 years.

    .NET, which is what most Windows Mobile apps are exclusively made with, has the DateTime type which is 64-bit and is limited, artificially, to just under the year 10000.

    Modern phone ecosystems are in a uniquely good position because most of the apps made for them have never had a chance to use a 32-bit time -- their platform never exposed one, but instead already had a 64-bit one. The app developer would need to be doing something too clever for their own good to screw it up. Desktop software is where the hurt will be come 2038.
    ananve, jmshub and Snowbooks1419 like this.
    08-01-2016 01:29 AM
  22. Techno-Freak's Avatar
    Keeping all the technicalities aside, we'll have more important problems to deal with by the year 2038 than a mobile phone OS, trust me.
    Chintan Gohel likes this.
    08-01-2016 04:46 AM
  23. PGrey's Avatar
    Good point Cory, I've used these constructs too, many times, not sure why it slipped my mind, they fact they're using a double value here, on 32...

    I bet there are some convoluted 3rd party implementations that will screw this up though, but probably more in the desktop or server Windows, than mobile.
    ananve likes this.
    08-01-2016 02:55 PM
  24. Snowbooks1419's Avatar
    Chiming in here as a systems developer with a couple decades of experience...

    Your CPU's architecture does not dictate the size of numbers used by software. By using literally the same basic arithmetic we learn in school, computers can build a 64-bit number from two 32-bit numbers, just like we can build a larger number from two or more of our 0-9 digits.

    The three common modern OSes -- Linux, Mac, and Windows -- have all used 64-bit times internally for a decade or more, even on 32-bit hardware. Now, some poorly made software could potentially be assuming it is 32-bit, and this will be the source of any issues come the year 2038 -- not the OS itself, but the apps running on it.

    C has a time_t type (the source of the "2038 problem") that has traditionally been 32-bit, but does not have to be an in fact in virtually every modern compiler it is now 64-bit.

    Windows has the SYSTEMTIME and FILETIME types that it uses internally since Windows 2000 which can represent a range of over 30,000 years.

    .NET, which is what most Windows Mobile apps are exclusively made with, has the DateTime type which is 64-bit and is limited, artificially, to just under the year 10000.

    Modern phone ecosystems are in a uniquely good position because most of the apps made for them have never had a chance to use a 32-bit time -- their platform never exposed one, but instead already had a 64-bit one. The app developer would need to be doing something too clever for their own good to screw it up. Desktop software is where the hurt will be come 2038.
    Thank you for the response! So, just to clarify, operating systems and most mobile applications won't be affected by the problem, no matter whether they're 32- or 64-bit? Also, will desktop applications like Microsoft Office continue to work in 2038, even if they're 32-bit? Or is it all 32-bit desktop software that will be affected?
    08-01-2016 04:34 PM
  25. PGrey's Avatar
    Thank you for the response! So, just to clarify, operating systems and most mobile applications won't be affected by the problem, no matter whether they're 32- or 64-bit? Also, will desktop applications like Microsoft Office continue to work in 2038, even if they're 32-bit? Or is it all 32-bit desktop software that will be affected?
    Yep, as Cory was so good to bring up, Win took care of this (in all Win32, C-runtime, and .NET) implementations quite some time ago.
    So, as long as app developers didn't develop their own, convoluted versions of this, either directly in code, or in linked libraries or similar, then there will be no issue.
    It should be safe to assume that *almost no* desktop or mobile Windows apps (or most OS's given that the runtime is similar in this regard) will be affected. I'm sure there are some random embedded solutions (not necessarily Windows, or probably not). It looks like WinCE even went back and patched this:
    https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=492450

    If you have an app you're concerned about, you could try manually "advancing" your clock to 2039, and see what happens.

    I think plenty of others have pointed out though (I said something to this effect earlier too), that this is probably the lesser of many issues that could/would affect things, between now and 2038... ;-]

    -pete
    08-01-2016 05:21 PM
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