08-21-2016 04:19 PM
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  1. ttsoldier's Avatar
    Funny how quickly people forget.....

    W10>WP8 for me...

    Ya, we got some bugs and some stuff doesn't work properly... But I would never go back..
    kaktus1389 and libra89 like this.
    08-17-2016 02:48 AM
  2. skinnypig118's Avatar
    I have felt this for a long time, w10m has lost much of its predecessor's charm and character; elements that set it apart from Android/iOS and made the OS a joy to use. I used to pick up my phone and just scroll through its beautiful menus, pivots and hubs for no reason other than to marvel at their designs. The OS was minimalist yet usable especially for one-handed use.


    Now the OS is utilitarian, flowing menus are all but gone and hambuger menus are everywhere. At a time when phone sizes are ballooning they've thrown one-handed use out the door and replaced it with a hacked one-handed mode. If there's nothing really setting w10m apart anymore, what's going to attract new users to the platform and make old users stay? That's the million dollar question and I'm not sure MS has a good answer to that.
    08-17-2016 06:37 AM
  3. Blade800's Avatar
    WP 8.1 was definitely snapier and W10 on old hardware is **** seriously. But once I got a phone which comes with W10 preinstalled (L650) the OS is much snappier and especially after Anniversary update. With a phone for 120 its really fast, the only complaint I have is the lagging/stuttering action center while swiping down or up when there are notifications. Its not as smooth as rest of the OS.
    libra89 likes this.
    08-17-2016 06:40 AM
  4. a5cent's Avatar
    Funny how quickly people forget......
    I don't think anybody is forgetting anything. Most of the issues criticized in this thread were already being criticized over a year ago, when we had just switched from WP8.1 and everything about it was still fresh in our minds. Back then the standard response to these types of criticisms was to just wait it out, as W10M was still an early insider preview (ahem). Well, we've waited it out, and few of those early criticisms were addressed. It's that simple.
    libra89, dlalonde, EspHack and 4 others like this.
    08-17-2016 06:33 PM
  5. a5cent's Avatar
    I don't know guys, for me it's quite simple. Windows 10 is newer, thus is better. I mean, this is the age of progress, isn't it?
    I could not disagree more. Being "new" has absolutely no value in and of itself.

    Progress is great if it comes with improvement. Progress is worthless if it's just about being new without improvement. Don't get me wrong. I do think W10M is an improvement overall. It's definitely not better in every way however. In some specific ways it's objectively and decidedly worse. That's the gripe many here have with W10M.

    Yes, 10 is not perfect (though it's 95% there for me), but the advantages outweight the disadvantages without a doubt.
    You're stating that as a matter of fact, but whether that's actually true depends on how much each of us values those advantages and disadvantages! IMHO there is no right or wrong judgement here. Depending on how each of us use our personal devices and which aspects we deem important, I think it's completely valid to arrive at very different conclusions on how good W10M is and whether it's overall better or worse than WP8.1.

    For me personally, W10M is better overall, but at the same time (with its androidesque UI and shedding of all WP specific innovations) it's lost everything that initially drew me to WP7 and WP8. IMHO the improvements in W10M do manage to make up for its disadvantages in comparison to WP8.1 (although barely), but for me personally, W10M no longer makes up for the disadvantages it has over iOS or Android.

    I really can't believe so many of you are stil wanting 8.1 back.
    This you've completely misunderstood. Nobody wants WP8.1 back. What people actually want is a W10M that is an improvement over WP8.1 in every way, rather than just in some ways, in particular:

    • metro had some issues, but rather than throwing out all of the metro design principles, I would have liked to see MS improve upon and add to them.
    • regain the fluid smoothness WP once exhibited (even on low end WP7 hardware)
    • be more efficient rather than slower
    • be more stable rather than frequently unreliable
    • keep pushing UI and mobile innovation rather than becoming an androidesque clone.

    Alas that's not going to happen, but I think that's what people actually wanted. What we actually got was W10M.
    Last edited by a5cent; 08-18-2016 at 08:08 AM. Reason: spelling
    08-17-2016 06:37 PM
  6. Aamir Mustafa's Avatar
    W10M is catching nicely to WindowsPhone8.1. There are many new features and improvements over 8.1. I m using it on L430 and my performance boosted with W10M and there are no loading/resuming screens and multitasking improved also.
    08-17-2016 08:47 PM
  7. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    What phone do you have W10M on? I noticed the same with my 640, but with the 950, this issue doesn't happen to me ever.
    I have a 950.
    libra89 likes this.
    08-18-2016 06:31 AM
  8. libra89's Avatar
    I have a 950.
    Ooh okay, thanks for answering. In that case, I agree with you actually. It seems like I have to start to type the whole word before it catches on.
    08-18-2016 07:15 AM
  9. dlalonde's Avatar
    I could not disagree more. Being "new" has absolutely no value in and of itself.

    Progress is great if it comes with improvement. Progress is worthless if it's just about being new without improvement. Don't get me wrong. I do think W10M is an improvement overall. It's definitely not better in every way however. In some specific ways it's objectively and decidedly worse. That's the gripe many here have with W10M.



    You're stating that as a matter of fact, but whether that's actually true depends on how much each of us values those advantages and disadvantages! IMHO there is no right or wrong judgement here. Depending on how each of us uses our devices and what was important to us, I think it's completely valid to arrive at very different conclusions on how good W10M is and whether it's overall better or worse than WP8.1.

    For me personally, W10M is better overall, but at the same time (with its androidesque UI and shedding of all WP specific innovations) it's lost everything that initially drew me to WP7 and WP8. IMHO the improvements in W10M do manage to make up for its disadvantages in comparison to WP8.1 (although barely), but for me personally, W10M no longer makes up for the disadvantages it has over iOS or Android.



    This you've completely misunderstood. Nobody wants WP8.1 back. What people actually want is a W10M that is an improvement over WP8.1 in every way, rather than just in some ways, in particular:

    • metro had some issues, but rather than throwing out all of the metro design principles, I would have liked to see MS improve upon and add to them.
    • regain the fluid smoothness WP once exhibited (even on low end WP7 hardware)
    • be more efficient rather than slower
    • be more stable rather than frequently unreliable
    • keep pushing UI and mobile innovation rather than becoming an androidesque clone.

    Alas that's not going to happen, but I think that's what people actually wanted. What we actually got was W10M.
    Couldn't have phrased it better!
    a5cent, libra89, EspHack and 1 others like this.
    08-18-2016 07:35 AM
  10. tgp's Avatar
    What people actually want is a W10M that is an improvement over WP8.1 in every way, rather than just in some ways, in particular:

    <snip>
    • regain the fluid smoothness WP once exhibited (even on low end WP7 hardware)
    • be more efficient rather than slower
    • be more stable rather than frequently unreliable
    • keep pushing UI and mobile innovation rather than becoming an androidesque clone.


    Your entire post was well said, and I agree. Considering the part quoted here, I believe the main reason early WP versions ran so smooth is because they were quite limited in function and features. In my experience, WP7 was the most fluid and smooth. This went downhill with progressive iterations, as features were added. At first I thought the WP OS was very efficient, but now I'm not convinced it actually was. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that if it was efficient, the reason was probably because there wasn't much there to run.

    Android is often said to be inefficient, but yet on similar hardware is it any worse than W10M in speed and battery life? The only W10M device I had was a 920 upgraded through the Insider program, but that's not a good comparison to modern hardware with officially supported W10M.
    libra89 and Kevin Rush like this.
    08-18-2016 09:01 AM
  11. Ma Rio's Avatar
    To be honest I think this is just a joke that's gone too far. From my understanding people mostly hate w10m because that's cool to do nowadays. Most of the arguments raised here don't really stand, and the expectations are nearly impossible to fulfil. All in all, I agree witih MS more than I do with people here, and I see (mostly) everything that's been done as an improvement, even the bad things, because they make way for more good things.
    08-18-2016 12:04 PM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    Considering the part quoted here, I believe the main reason early WP versions ran so smooth is because they were quite limited in function and features.
    This is a very common belief but it is just plain wrong. At the very least we'd have to be much more specific. The number of features/functions is irrelevant. What matters is what those functions/features do. Add a single feature that isn't well suited to mobile, and that single feature can singlehandedly make a smartphone unusable. On the other hand, we might literally add a hundred thousand configuration options to the settings menus and notice no difference at all. It depends.

    Fact is, there is no single user-facing feature in WP8 or W10M that should make either any less efficient than WP7.

    On the other hand, W10M is now entirely based on an OS that was originally designed for desktops and servers (hey... look at that... just like Android). That has introduced a huge amount of inefficiencies in comparison to WP7, which was based on an OS that was originally designed for (a) resource limited (b) embedded devices that must (c) fulfill real-time requirements (a very accurate description of a smartphone BTW). That's where the real differences lie. This has absolutely nothing to do with the number of features/functions.

    This went downhill with progressive iterations, as features were added.
    No. It went downhill as more and more components were integrated from the less efficient big brother.

    At first I thought the WP OS was very efficient, but now I'm not convinced it actually was. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that if it was efficient, the reason was probably because there wasn't much there to run.
    Again no. I collected a lot of empirical data on this a few years back when smartphone hardware performance mattered a lot more than it does now. Android was demonstrably and notably less efficient than WP7 (and always will be). Luckily for Android, the OS and available hardware have improved to a point where it just no longer really matters.

    Android is often said to be inefficient, but yet on similar hardware is it any worse than W10M in speed and battery life?
    The matter of efficiency is always relative. Compared to WP7 Android remains terribly inefficient, and always will be. However, none of my fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants comparisons would lead me to believe Android is any less efficient than W10M. Quite the opposite actually.

    It's not a completely accurate analogy, but I now think of W10M as being in the same position as Android was back in 2008... being adapted from a OS that was originally designed for a completely different kind of device, and with Microsoft having a long road of project-butter-like efforts ahead.
    Last edited by a5cent; 08-18-2016 at 01:59 PM. Reason: spelling
    08-18-2016 12:15 PM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    To be honest I think this is just a joke that's gone too far.
    An inability to comprehend differing opinions, or that different people have different smartphone priorities, doesn't make those differing opinions jokes. People have been raising exactly these issues for over a year now, since long before it was cool to hate W10M. Seriously, it should be obvious that this has absolutely nothing to do with hopping on the hate train.

    Even if it did, you'd be well advised to attack the arguments that you disagree with, rather than the people.
    libra89, dlalonde, wgs84 and 3 others like this.
    08-18-2016 12:33 PM
  14. Ntei's Avatar
    The matter of efficiency is always relative. Compared to WP7 Android remains terribly inefficient, and always will be. None of my fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants comparisons would lead me to believe Android is any less efficient than W10M. Quite the opposite actually.
    I have the 640 on the latest non insider update and I see no lag. What should I do to make my phone lag not including using poorly programmed apps? I am asking that cause I do not see your point even thought my phone is low end.
    08-18-2016 12:34 PM
  15. xandros9's Avatar
    I have the 640 on the latest non insider update and I see no lag. What should I do to make my phone lag not including using poorly programmed apps? I am asking that cause I do not see your point even thought my phone is low end.
    Have worse luck?
    a5cent and libra89 like this.
    08-18-2016 12:37 PM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    I have the 640 on the latest non insider update and I see no lag. What should I do to make my phone lag not including using poorly programmed apps? I am asking that cause I do not see your point even thought my phone is low end.
    I don't know. It seems to me that reports vary widely. Some people claim to be having no issues at all, but I've never seen an older low end device run W10M well.

    Just to be clear, I don't see any lag. What I do see is micro jitter all over the place, as if it's regularly skipping a frame, which I never saw on WP7 or WP8 (yes, I'm pretty sensitive to this sort of thing). It's anything but smooth. Battery life (which is the primary indicator of efficiency) is also quite a bit worse than it was with WP8.

    I just installed the anniversary edition an hour ago and did a hard reset without restoring from backup. I haven't really looked at it yet, but just by scrolling the start screen I can already see screen tearing. Never had this on WP7 or WP8 either.

    Even if all of that were perfect, the real issue I have with W10M is related to individuality and innovation. I was with WP because it was different and I liked the ways in which it was different. W10M is no longer different, or it's different only in superficial ways. That's the bigger issue for me personally.
    libra89, xandros9 and Kevin Rush like this.
    08-18-2016 12:51 PM
  17. tgp's Avatar
    Again no. I collected a lot of empirical data on this a few years back when smartphone hardware performance mattered a lot more than it does now. Android was demonstrably and notably less efficient than WP7 (and always will be).
    OK, we're differing on technicalities. You of course are technically correct, and you know way more than I do due to your background and training. You need to remember that you look at these things differently than a lot of us do!

    I'm talking about efficiency as what is apparent on the outside, not on what is happening on the inside. If something isn't working well, the average user couldn't care less why. They just want it fixed. What I meant was that WP7 did run great, but if you would have added the components of WP8/WP8.1/W10M to WP7 (probably technically impossible), would it have still run great? I have no idea what goes on "under the hood", but it ran great but did little. W10M does a lot, but runs poorly except on the highest specced hardware.

    The matter of efficiency is always relative. Compared to WP7 Android remains terribly inefficient, and always will be. None of my fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants comparisons would lead me to believe Android is any less efficient than W10M. Quite the opposite actually.

    It's not a completely accurate analogy, but I now think of W10M being in the same position as Android was back in 2008... being adapted from a OS that was originally designed for a completely different kind of device, and with Microsoft having a long road of" required efficiency improvements" ahead.
    Would W10M run like WP7 did if you took out the added components? I've said before that in the last several years, Android and WP/W10M have switched positions. It seemed Google was throwing features at Android which made it very capable, but heavy and buggy. That's where we are now with W10M. Microsoft certainly has "a long road of" required efficiency improvements" ahead" with WM, which is what Google has done with Android in the last several years.
    08-18-2016 02:24 PM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    What I meant was that WP7 did run great, but if you would have added the components of WP8/WP8.1/W10M to WP7 (probably technically impossible), would it have still run great?
    Yes. But only if the components you're referring to aren't part of the OS. Note that apps like Mail, Groove, Skype etc. aren't part of the OS. They are just apps that are bundled and shipped along side the OS. Almost every user-facing feature is presented to the user via one of those apps. Even access to the OS settings is provided through an app. You can switch those apps out all day long with whatever you want without impacting overall OS efficiency in any way.

    Would W10M run like WP7 did if you took out the added components?
    No. At least not if what you're referring to with "components" are user-facing features/functions. As mentioned above, almost all user-facing functionality is presented to the user via apps. If you were to remove all the W10M apps from the OS and replace them with the less functional versions from the WP7 days (not technically possible so view it as a thought experiment), then W10M would perform no better than it does now.

    In the software stack the OS resides below the apps, and in these lower level OS layers MS hasn't added so much to it, as they have just continually replaced it with versions that are ever more similar (with W10M now largely identical) to those employed by their desktop/server OS.

    For example, the basic foundation on which all version of W10 are now built is called OneCore. OneCore is very flexible in the sense that it can interface with a huge array of hardware in all kinds of devices. It provides very general purpose solutions to power management, security, networking, cryptography, storage etc. This generalized approach has advantages, but it also has disadvantages, one of which being that it can never be as efficient as a solution designed specifically for a much more narrowly defined set of requirements and hardware configurations. It's simply a fact of software engineering that flexibility must always be bought at the expense of efficiency. That's where most of the efficiency differences between WP7, WP8 and W10M come from.

    I've said before that in the last several years, Android and WP/W10M have switched positions. It seemed Google was throwing features at Android which made it very capable, but heavy and buggy. That's where we are now with W10M. Microsoft certainly has "a long road of" required efficiency improvements" ahead" with WM, which is what Google has done with Android in the last several years.
    This is how I perceive the situation as well.
    Last edited by a5cent; 08-19-2016 at 04:03 PM. Reason: spelling
    libra89, tgp and Kevin Rush like this.
    08-19-2016 07:37 AM
  19. EspHack's Avatar
    I don't know. It seems to me that reports vary widely. Some people claim to be having no issues at all, but I've never seen an older low end device run W10M well.

    Just to be clear, I don't see any lag. What I do see is micro jitter all over the place, as if it's regularly skipping a frame, which I never saw on WP7 or WP8 (yes, I'm pretty sensitive to this sort of thing). It's anything but smooth. Battery life (which is the primary indicator of efficiency) is also quite a bit worse than it was with WP8.

    I just installed the anniversary edition an hour ago and did a hard reset without restoring from backup. I haven't really looked at it yet, but just by scrolling the start screen I can already see screen tearing. Never had this on WP7 or WP8 either.

    Even if all of that were perfect, the real issue I have with W10M is related to individuality and innovation. I was with WP because it was different and I liked the ways in which it was different. W10M is no longer different, or it's different only in superficial ways. That's the bigger issue for me personally.
    yep, its like they disabled VSYNC lol

    btw after AU update I feel the OS is more finished now, I can finally start looking at future possibilities instead of being completely clouded by the inconvenience that was trying to use w10m daily, so there's that, maybe RS2 is the turning point
    a5cent likes this.
    08-19-2016 02:31 PM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    yep, its like they disabled VSYNC lol

    btw after AU update I feel the OS is more finished now, I can finally start looking at future possibilities instead of being completely clouded by the inconvenience that was trying to use w10m daily, so there's that, maybe RS2 is the turning point
    You may be right. I still haven't gotten around to using it that much, but so far no crashes at least. So far so good :-)
    08-19-2016 04:05 PM
  21. NatKingColeslaw's Avatar
    For every person who is unwilling to admit that some users have had issues after updating to Windows 10, there is certainly a person who seems oblivious to the fact that a great many people truly, honestly think Windows 10 is an improvement. I had a Lumia 822 and 928, and my meager 640 on Windows 10 runs circles around them. I find it more powerful, and yes, more efficient. It is my honest opinion, I am not a naive simpleton for thinking so.
    Guytronic likes this.
    08-19-2016 09:20 PM
  22. Guytronic's Avatar
    In simple terms:
    Windows phone 8.1 could've been a contender.
    Personally I loved it.
    When 10 got shoved down our throats I thought "Oh ok this will be better...Microsoft knows best".
    I get depressed when I use my poor, sad and abandoned 925 that I still love.

    Maybe I should just bury it out behind the garage while the moon shines bright :\
    08-19-2016 10:08 PM
  23. TechFreak1's Avatar

    For me personally, W10M is better overall, but at the same time (with its androidesque UI and shedding of all WP specific innovations) it's lost everything that initially drew me to WP7 and WP8. IMHO the improvements in W10M do manage to make up for its disadvantages in comparison to WP8.1 (although barely), but for me personally, W10M no longer makes up for the disadvantages it has over iOS or Android.

    What people actually want is a W10M that is an improvement over WP8.1 in every way, rather than just in some ways, in particular:

    • metro had some issues, but rather than throwing out all of the metro design principles, I would have liked to see MS improve upon and add to them.
    • regain the fluid smoothness WP once exhibited (even on low end WP7 hardware)
    • be more efficient rather than slower
    • be more stable rather than frequently unreliable
    • keep pushing UI and mobile innovation rather than becoming an androidesque clone.

    Alas that's not going to happen, but I think that's what people actually wanted.
    This. ^^^^

    What we actually got was W10M.
    What we actually got is a rancid tasting cocktail of a mojito designed by numbers via a committee who never have tasted a mojito before . I could point so many things wrong with the UX but I won't as I'd end up writing a novel.
    08-20-2016 01:58 AM
  24. Gerade_Kurve's Avatar
    In my opinion Windows 10 offers a lot more options for the future with the Universal Windows Platform but as always: new features come with new bugs. WP 8.1 was an OS which has existed and been bug fixed long before I joined the smartphone World (which was 2014). Another negative point with Win 10M is that some features are missing which I used in WP 8.1 (looking at you Cortana) but I hope for MS to listen to the feedback and bring back these features.
    08-20-2016 05:50 PM
  25. colinkiama's Avatar
    I finally understand why this update is opt and not over the air for 8.1 devices. This feels like a completely different OS in so many ways.

    I love all the new features but it just never feels smooth and polished. There's always something off. Even as I'm typing with the keyboard, it feels slower than it would be in 8.1. I feel like Th2 was really W10 Mobile 1.0 and the anniversary update was W10 Mobile 2.0. Things can only get better to be honest. It'll be interesting to see how the OS will look when it reaches 8.1's level of polish and easily.

    The name change is really important. This is not Windows Phone like we remember it.
    libra89 and Kevin Rush like this.
    08-20-2016 06:04 PM
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