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11-12-2016 02:37 PM
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  1. vezycash's Avatar
    Just why?
    WP8.1 was Windows in name only. WP10 is very close to desktop Windows 10 and it inherits virtually all its problems: sluggishness, crash prone, ram hungry, hot device, 100% processor usage, OS rot (needing a reset often), apps which crash hardware (WP10 skype used to crash the camera),... eventually, WP would need antivirus as well.

    Will it ever be?
    Doesn't hurt to dream. Eventually, we all have to wake up and face reality

    Everything was so smooth and great in 8.1, what happened?
    Politics. 99% of reason why courier was canned - because it used a modified version of Windows XP. This move set Microsoft back in the tablet market for at least 5 years before Windows team could deliver a touch screen friendly OS.

    The same thing happened with WP8.1 someone wanted to consolidate power at the expense of consumers. We got promises of a beautiful future but in the mean time...
    09-12-2016 02:19 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ You'd have gotten a "like" from me if you hadn't gone quite so overboard. 😀 OS rot is actually one of the things the UWP definitively solves. Critisizing 100% CPU usage is also a bit strange, as a CPU core typically runs at either 100% or 0%. There is no in-between when it comes to CPU technology. Any CPU usage graphs telling you otherwise is dumbing the measurement results down and ultimately lying to you. You're also downright wrong on the bit about requiring antivirus software.

    Basically, you're conflating the traditional Win32 and the more modern WinRT (UWP) runtime environments. Those are two very different things and W10M only has the later. Many of the issues you mentioned are specific to the Win32 environment which doesn't exist on W10M.
    HeyCori, ven07, TechFreak1 and 1 others like this.
    09-12-2016 02:59 PM
  3. Padraig McGloin's Avatar
    I have the Windows 10, Redstone 1 release on my Lumia 930 and it seems to work perfectly, smooth, no restarts and the battery life has become weirdly awesome ... I have like 40% at the end of the day now.
    ven07 likes this.
    09-12-2016 03:05 PM
  4. astondg's Avatar
    No, because the 1020 & 920 aren't officially supported by W10M so the OS and firmware hasn't been optimised for them AND they were locked out of the latest Insider builds (i.e. the builds at the end of the cycle when Microsoft was making optimisations for release). To be fair to W10M it would have to be with a supported device (e.g. Lumia Icon, 1520, 930, 640, 640XL, 730, 735, 830, 532, 535, 540, 635 1GB, 636 1GB, 638 1GB, 430, 435, BLU Win HD w510u, BLU Win HD LTE x150q, MCJ Madosma Q501).

    The results may still be the same but that's the kind of test we need to know for sure. I would also be interested in seeing a WP7 device in the test as well, performing the same tasks.
    09-12-2016 05:11 PM
  5. EspHack's Avatar
    No, because the 1020 & 920 aren't officially supported by W10M so the OS and firmware hasn't been optimised for them AND they were locked out of the latest Insider builds (i.e. the builds at the end of the cycle when Microsoft was making optimisations for release). To be fair to W10M it would have to be with a supported device (e.g. Lumia Icon, 1520, 930, 640, 640XL, 730, 735, 830, 532, 535, 540, 635 1GB, 636 1GB, 638 1GB, 430, 435, BLU Win HD w510u, BLU Win HD LTE x150q, MCJ Madosma Q501).

    The results may still be the same but that's the kind of test we need to know for sure. I would also be interested in seeing a WP7 device in the test as well, performing the same tasks.
    I bet they get SMOKED by wp7 :P
    09-12-2016 05:25 PM
  6. mildor's Avatar
    I know, I used to hate android because it was always laggy and ugly, and Loved💘 Microsoft Windows Phone because it was fast and clean...
    That all change, now android is not that laggy anymore and is much cleaner (still ugly) and Windows10Mobile is not that clean anymore and is laggy 😞
    09-12-2016 05:51 PM
  7. milkyway's Avatar
    No, because the 1020 & 920 aren't officially supported by W10M so the OS and firmware hasn't been optimised for them AND they were locked out of the latest Insider builds (i.e. the builds at the end of the cycle when Microsoft was making optimisations for release). To be fair to W10M it would have to be with a supported device (e.g. Lumia Icon, 1520, 930, 640, 640XL, 730, 735, 830, 532, 535, 540, 635 1GB, 636 1GB, 638 1GB, 430, 435, BLU Win HD w510u, BLU Win HD LTE x150q, MCJ Madosma Q501).

    The results may still be the same but that's the kind of test we need to know for sure. I would also be interested in seeing a WP7 device in the test as well, performing the same tasks.
    I don't think it matters if your phone is officially supported or not. That newer phones with Snapdragon 400 and above run W10M way better than the ones with Snapdragon S4 is nothing you can correct with firmware updates
    09-13-2016 01:08 AM
  8. astondg's Avatar
    I don't think it matters if your phone is officially supported or not. That newer phones with Snapdragon 400 and above run W10M way better than the ones with Snapdragon S4 is nothing you can correct with firmware updates
    To be a fair test it has to be a supported phone. If I had one I'd run some tests myself but I've only got a 920 :(
    a5cent and TechFreak1 like this.
    09-13-2016 04:42 AM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    I would also be interested in seeing a WP7 device in the test as well, performing the same tasks.
    There are of course huge hardware differences between WP7's and today's modern devices. I'm sure you are aware, but still want to point out that a stop watch comparison between a WP7 device and a modern one running W10M would tell us very little.

    Efficiency is about how much computing power must be brought to bare to complete a certain amount of work in a given amount of time. Consider two identical hardware platforms with different OSes, where both are set to complete the same task (work). If one completes the job quicker, then that one is doing the work more efficiently (and will require less battery power to do so).

    WP7 devices were at most dual-core 1.2GHz devices with 512MB of RAM. Yet their UI was just as responsive and at least as fluid (if not more so) than what we have today, despite being comparatively under powered (massively). I'm guessing it took high-end WP7 devices about 50% longer than my L830 to launch an app, but they had less than a fourth of the computational power, so the WP7 device is still more efficient despite being slower. If W10M was similarly efficient, our current devices would tear up their modern counterparts. My point is that just timing tasks, without taking the hardware into consideration, won't tell you anything about efficiency.

    Otherwise I'm completely with you. Firmware can make huge differences in performance so any test should use hardware that is officially supported.
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-13-2016 at 03:36 PM. Reason: formatting
    09-13-2016 06:01 AM
  10. EspHack's Avatar
    I don't think it matters if your phone is officially supported or not. That newer phones with Snapdragon 400 and above run W10M way better than the ones with Snapdragon S4 is nothing you can correct with firmware updates
    steve on AAWP has actual stopwatch numbers for app startups and such things, sd400 just barely tops s4 phones, sd200 is way behind both, so we can only wonder why 435 got approved while 92x didnt

    some people seem to think a generational improvement on cpu means a 100% speed increase, far from that, its just that things started to be done for quad core cpus not dual cores, cores on s4 cpus are clock for clock faster than sd400 and they tend to be clocked higher too not to mention its more than that, fundamentally we have a product intended to rule(s4) and another intended to be good value(sd400) if you look at memory, nand, gpu and other things, the s4 absolutely crushes the sd400, and in simple terms: you cant expect todays i5 to beat yesterdays i7 just because its new, in fact, just go check that out, you might be surprised
    09-13-2016 07:16 PM
  11. astondg's Avatar
    There are of course huge hardware differences between WP7's and today's modern devices. I'm sure you are aware, but still want to point out that a stop watch comparison between a WP7 device and a modern one running W10M would tell us very little.
    Yeah, definitely. It's an important point and I don't want to draw any conclusions about WP7 OS based on that comparison, I just think it would be interesting to see how WP7, on the devices at the time, performed in the same types of tasks. Some of the difference could even be the UI structure of WP7 vs 8.1 & W10M (e.g. the People Hub integrations) so not a fair test of OS level efficiency from that point of view either, just interesting to see how long typical user interactions take across the generations.

    But the real test I want to see is WP8.1 vs W10M on the same, supported, device performing the same tasks.
    a5cent likes this.
    09-14-2016 12:43 AM
  12. Tien-Lin Chang's Avatar
    I don't think it matters if your phone is officially supported or not. That newer phones with Snapdragon 400 and above run W10M way better than the ones with Snapdragon S4 is nothing you can correct with firmware updates
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...gon_400_series

    The S4 plus used by 920/925/1020/ATIV S/8X has two Krait 200 core pumping 3.3 DMIPS/MHz * 2 * 1.5Ghz = 9.9
    The SD400 used by most of the lumia devices has four Cortex-A7 core pumping 1.9 DMIPS / MHz * 4 * 1.2Ghz = 9.12

    It means S4 plus egdes the max raw power over SD400 (you have to be sure WP8/W10M can make fully use of the four core or it lose more)

    The S4 plus has dual channel LPDDR2@533Mhz
    The SD400 has single channel LPDDR2/3@533Mhz

    It means in the best case SD400 has the same memory bandwidth of S4 plus, or it has only half of the later one.

    Adreno 305 got about same power as Adreno 225

    So yes, if SD400 run W10M way better than S4 plus, it's firmware/driver issue rather than SD400 being much powerful than S4 plus and it's the issue that MSFT who failed(unwilling?) to solve, not couldn't be solved.

    When discuss something, we shouldn't confuse the result with reason.
    a5cent, milkyway, EspHack and 1 others like this.
    09-14-2016 01:40 AM
  13. paul87russell's Avatar
    Tbh as the platform moves forward, I think we'll become somewhat android-ish. In the sense that your experience will depend on what kind of SD you have and how much RAM..

    Not allowing 512mb phones to officially upgrade and keeping a certain threshold for phones that are allowed to use continuum, are (at least according to me) indications of this
    That is quite true IMHO. I read an article I can't quite remember where, i think in android central, where samsung submitted a patent for dual/simultaneous boot of android and windows in their phones
    ven07 likes this.
    09-14-2016 02:08 AM
  14. milkyway's Avatar
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...gon_400_series

    The S4 plus used by 920/925/1020/ATIV S/8X has two Krait 200 core pumping 3.3 DMIPS/MHz * 2 * 1.5Ghz = 9.9
    The SD400 used by most of the lumia devices has four Cortex-A7 core pumping 1.9 DMIPS / MHz * 4 * 1.2Ghz = 9.12

    It means S4 plus egdes the max raw power over SD400 (you have to be sure WP8/W10M can make fully use of the four core or it lose more)

    The S4 plus has dual channel LPDDR2@533Mhz
    The SD400 has single channel LPDDR2/3@533Mhz

    It means in the best case SD400 has the same memory bandwidth of S4 plus, or it has only half of the later one.

    Adreno 305 got about same power as Adreno 225

    So yes, if SD400 run W10M way better than S4 plus, it's firmware/driver issue rather than SD400 being much powerful than S4 plus and it's the issue that MSFT who failed(unwilling?) to solve, not couldn't be solved.

    When discuss something, we shouldn't confuse the result with reason.
    but the SD400 was already faster than the S4 Plus on WP8.1:
    09-14-2016 10:37 AM
  15. Tien-Lin Chang's Avatar
    That score means nothing if we don't know how they test it and how the score had been put together.

    Like adreno 305 support a little bit newer graphic standard than adreno 225 so if you heavily score that part then you can generates the illusion of 305 smashing 225 which is not the case in real life. Its an old trick in those 3dmark days in 1998-2006(maybe still in today). The only thing I think SD400 devices stands a chance is the storage, it's newer so it has the chance to fit in faster NAND(I have no idea what Nokia put in during their low-spec days).

    Still I think it's a shame if the raw power is there yet failed to deliver
    a5cent, TechFreak1 and libra89 like this.
    09-14-2016 11:14 AM
  16. EspHack's Avatar
    if I remember correctly the gpu is the biggest difference in s4 vs sd400, since a good gpu is hardly justifiable on cost-effective solutions they tend to go with whatever works, the 305 is probably a rebranded 205 clocked way higher, thing is they rely on other things, the S4 having dual channel memory would dramatically boost the 225 since they use shared ram, and, again, the better single threaded performance of the s4 cores is a sure win for gaming

    if im not mistaken, gameplay videos of asphalt 8 back in 8.1 days show the 305 phones struggling to keep playable framerates even with lower resolutions while the 225 phones handle it just fine
    a5cent, ven07, TechFreak1 and 1 others like this.
    09-14-2016 02:30 PM
  17. StarLord0890's Avatar
    Shouldn't have upgraded lol
    09-15-2016 03:51 AM
  18. Myrkur's Avatar
    I have the Windows 10, Redstone 1 release on my Lumia 930 and it seems to work perfectly, smooth, no restarts and the battery life has become weirdly awesome ... I have like 40% at the end of the day now.
    Pretty much the same here. There are some funny issues (most of them related to camera in my case), but overall experience is pretty good.
    09-15-2016 04:12 AM
  19. Vasil Dechkov's Avatar
    Shouldn't have upgraded lol
    Why? I really like the experience of Windows 10 Mobile.

    You can always downgrade though.

    Sent from mTalk on a 535.
    09-15-2016 06:34 AM
  20. olympija's Avatar
    My 8.1 is much faster than 10!!!
    09-15-2016 08:36 AM
  21. mehtanilay10's Avatar
    Yes there are lots of UI issues in W10M! specially when using high contrast.
    Hope MS will fix those small UI issues.
    09-16-2016 07:10 AM
  22. fatclue_98's Avatar
    If I were to ask you to build me a house as cheaply and quickly and possible, you'd have to instantly intervene and tell me I can't have both at the same time. I can either have the house built as quickly as possible, or as cheaply as possible, but not both simultaneously. Those two requirements are mutually exclusive.
    Over 30 years in the construction industry allows me to say your statement is unequivocally incorrect. The speed at which any structure is built has nothing to do with the quality of the materials used. There are means and methods available to expedite certain processes but it doesn't affect material take-offs (speed increase, no cost impact). You can skimp on labor by using unskilled workers (not recommended). You can substitute lower cost lumber, for example, but the board-feet required remains the same so there are no gains to the schedule unless you employ other means and methods as I mentioned before. In other words, you can get it cheaper, quicker or both.
    Laura Knotek, libra89 and a5cent like this.
    10-12-2016 08:26 PM
  23. a5cent's Avatar
    Over 30 years in the construction industry allows me to say your statement is unequivocally incorrect. The speed at which any structure is built has nothing to do with the quality of the materials used. There are means and methods available to expedite certain processes but it doesn't affect material take-offs (speed increase, no cost impact). You can skimp on labor by using unskilled workers (not recommended). You can substitute lower cost lumber, for example, but the board-feet required remains the same so there are no gains to the schedule unless you employ other means and methods as I mentioned before. In other words, you can get it cheaper, quicker or both.
    Actually, I wasn't thinking of materials at all. I was thinking of labor. I'd be very skeptical if you suggested that the relationship between the number of workers and the rate of progress is always linear. For example, if you assign forty workers to build a home, you'll surely complete the building earlier than if you had assigned 20, but for smaller homes (where you can't efficiently use forty workers at the same time) not twice as fast. I'm assuming there is an optimal number of workers to build a home as quickly as possible and a different number of workers to build that same home as cheaply as possible.

    That's why I say you can't achieve both requirements at the same time.

    I agree it's not the best analogy, particularly since you've now shown me how easily it is misunderstood.

    I hope I've described this well enough so people can understand what the idea was and come up with their own analogy that works better.
    10-12-2016 09:02 PM
  24. Kevin Rush's Avatar
    Over 30 years in the construction industry allows me to say your statement is unequivocally incorrect. The speed at which any structure is built has nothing to do with the quality of the materials used. There are means and methods available to expedite certain processes but it doesn't affect material take-offs (speed increase, no cost impact). You can skimp on labor by using unskilled workers (not recommended). You can substitute lower cost lumber, for example, but the board-feet required remains the same so there are no gains to the schedule unless you employ other means and methods as I mentioned before. In other words, you can get it cheaper, quicker or both.
    Respectfully, "cheaper, quicker or both" is misleading. They are certainly not equals and do not have the same results in terms of quality and accounting.
    10-12-2016 09:07 PM
  25. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'm assuming there is an optimal number of workers to build a home as quickly as possible and a different number of workers to build that same home as cheaply as possible.
    I didn't want to go down this road because it could be taken out of context sooooo easily but here goes. There isn't any phase of home construction that can't be done significantly cheaper and equal to, or sometimes greater, in quality of workmanship by using immigrant labor. I won't mention specific nationalities but we both know what I'm talking about. I'm no longer surprised at how well and how hard these guys work. Anybody who wonders if work ethic is a lost art needs to visit South Florida.
    Laura Knotek and a5cent like this.
    10-12-2016 09:48 PM
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