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  1. techiez's Avatar
    Technically speaking, this is valid. Windows 10 desktop users are potential customers. But, so far it seems that desktop users do not actually use apps much in real life. Mobile users have no choice, but desktop users have legacy apps as well as very good browser experience for most things.
    I recently bought a non-touch W10 laptop, and I found using UWP apps cumbersome, may be its just me or may be problem with the particular apps design but the experience put me off so I dont use apps on my laptopn anymore, I rely on native applications and use apps on my phone.
    Player Piano and Laura Knotek like this.
    09-30-2016 01:46 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    Actually Nadella himself was the one who gave their strategy the name "retrenchment" and Wincentral took it and used it as an excuse to justify any and everything that happened to Windows Phone marketshare, sales and OEM interest from that moment.

    Whether Microsoft expected the market to fall out from under their mobile platform may be questioned but we cant question their response since then, aptly demonstrated by the response of a Microsoft presenter at Ignite to a question someone in the thread mentioned about W10M usage at Microsoft - a collective shrug. Whatever their initial intentions they definitely don't seem now to be showing any desire to make anything of their mobile platform besides a footnote in the press release for their latest ios and android software.
    Thanks for that. I must have missed or forgotten Nedalla using the word 'retrenchment' to describe the situation. I guess it's great that the term wasn't pulled out of thin air, but I would have been happier if you would have refuted my point. ;-) Unfortunately we agree. The term is used more as an excuse rather than being a precise or even useful description of anything.

    one commenter on thurrot makes a good point

    they asked if microsoft employees use wp internally, short answer is no, and yet THEY ARE an enterprise that uses windows, they fit their own target audience perfectly, and yet they dont use w10m phones, how does that look?
    Your point seems to make perfect sense (and makes MS look really hypocritical), but I'm not sure it holds up. A business customer who wants a W10M devices is not the person who will eventually end up using it. I recall a member posting that the whole idea of a "business user" is bogus, because every employee is ultimately also a consumer, and just because someone gets employed won't make them suddenly want to use W10M. That's true, but it misses the important fact that the business user we're talking about in this context typically has no say in what device they will use. The phone is purchased on the user's behalf and expected to use it for business purposes. The actual customer in this scenario is the corporation's IT department or the bean counters, who calculated that porting their existing Windows software to iOS and Android would be far more expensive than just purchasing their 600 employees a W10M device which has more commonalities with their server and desktop environments.

    That's the type of corporation that we're talking about. A corporation who's staff isn't any more technically literate than the average Joe, and where IT decisions are made by a single entity on everyone's behalf, which is then deployed as a company standard. Obviously that doesn't apply to a tech company like MS where the marketing, payroll and bookkeeping departments are the only ones with a standardized IT setup, and where every second person needs a different setup for the task they are currently working on.

    I'm certainly not saying you're completely wrong though. It does say a lot that MS employees aren't using W10M. Just like 99% of the population isn't using W10M. I just don't think MS actually fits their own target audience for W10M.
    Last edited by a5cent; 09-30-2016 at 02:53 PM. Reason: spelling only
    Laura Knotek, tgp, libra89 and 1 others like this.
    09-30-2016 02:09 PM
  3. a5cent's Avatar
    So my optimistic long view is still that UWP apps are still an attractive proposition for developers in a world with 400 million potential customers (Win10 users). There is some hope that those apps will make Win10 phones more and more attractive.
    I know that's the official line. I just don't see it. A potential customer implies that there exists a demand that people are willing to spend money on to meet. Just having a computer sitting infront of 400 million faces that MS can push software too doesn't constitute demand.

    Like tgp mentioned on the previous page, there needs to be a reason why a desktop user would spend money on an app. For the simple use-cases internet applications just work too well. Apps aren't required. For the really heavy duty software the UWP might work, but there isn't much of a reason to spend the millions required to port such software from Win32 to UWP. It already works just fine too. Where everything works the way people need it to, there is no demand.

    UWP was designed to allow the same piece of software to run across W10 desktops and W10M mobile devices. If nobody is using W10M devices that demand doesn't exist... hence no potential customers.

    That's my take on it. I'll be happy if I'm completely wrong and you're 100% correct though. ;-)
    techiez, tgp, Laura Knotek and 3 others like this.
    09-30-2016 02:29 PM
  4. techiez's Avatar
    If I see this, I think MS is now opening up to be honest and tell a goodbye to consumers and their WP fans.
    Les smartphones Microsoft en retrait "pour quelques annes" - Le Point

    But windowscentral tries to twist it to present hope to fans.
    Microsoft is betting on 'paradigm shift' for Windows 10 Mobile to be competitive | Windows Central

    But its pretty much clear that if MS is retrenching from consumer mobiles space then surface phone will not help bring any new consumers, also it would means more n more devs leaving this ecosystem.
    09-30-2016 02:44 PM
  5. EspHack's Avatar
    If I see this, I think MS is now opening up to be honest and tell a goodbye to consumers and their WP fans.
    Les smartphones Microsoft en retrait "pour quelques annes" - Le Point

    But windowscentral tries to twist it to present hope to fans.
    Microsoft is betting on 'paradigm shift' for Windows 10 Mobile to be competitive | Windows Central

    But its pretty much clear that if MS is retrenching from consumer mobiles space then surface phone will not help bring any new consumers, also it would means more n more devs leaving this ecosystem.
    wcentral writers remind me of nasa...

    hey I'm not against it, I applaud them for, in some ways, doing more than microsoft for the community, problem is if your backend isn't cooperating there's little point in making offers that wont be fulfilled
    09-30-2016 02:54 PM
  6. Krystianpants's Avatar
    I know that's the official line. I just don't see it. A potential customer implies that there exists a demand that people are willing to spend money on to meet. Just having a computer sitting infront of 400 million faces that MS can push software too doesn't constitute demand.

    Like tgp mentioned on the previous page, there needs to be a reason why a desktop user would spend money on an app. For the simple use-cases internet applications just work too well. Apps aren't required. For the really heavy duty software the UWP might work, but there isn't much of a reason to spend the millions required to port such software from Win32 to UWP. It already works just fine too. Where everything works the way people need it to, there is no demand.

    UWP was designed to allow the same piece of software to run across W10 desktops and W10M mobile devices. If nobody is using W10M devices that demand doesn't exist... hence no potential customers.

    That's my take on it. I'll be happy if I'm completely wrong and you're 100% correct though. ;-)
    I agree it's just a figure to entice developers. My guess is the only people looking at the store are fans, new 2-in-1 purchasers and maybe the odd ones here and there to see if there's anything there.

    I have been saying this for a long time and you mentioned something similar. The only way MS will get the consumer market is by focusing on games. People buy games. In fact, a lot of PC users are only using windows for gaming. I can't tell you how many people mention they would use linux but they play games. And I mentioned they should come out with a mobile phone that is also a gaming device for Play Everywhere. It would gain a decent market share. Enough to draw attention. Gaming is huge. Apple knows this and having mario runner come out as timed exclusive on ios shows they know exactly what they are doing. Games are so powerful that even though this Mario game will come to android Apple believes having it as a timed exclusive will draw in more people.

    It's funny but a lot of people would always get mad about snapchat not being on windows mobile and whatever few apps, but for the most part these people stayed on the platform. It wasn't till pokemon Go came out that I saw quite a lot of people leaving windows mobile. Reddit had quite a lot jumping ship. Because at the end of the day apps will never make as much money as games do. Gameloft makes enough money off windows to actually keep releasing new titles. The highest reviews for anything in a store is usually a game. MS must know this. And maybe they are waiting to be able to put that sort of power into a phone. For the time being all they really have is business. And I believe they will be successful to some degree because of their licensing. Businesses don't care if their employees have snapchat. They only care about security and having complete control of the business. Employees will have their own phones for snapchat or anything else. And keeping these separate is a good thing even for the users.
    09-30-2016 02:55 PM
  7. techiez's Avatar
    wcentral writers remind me of nasa...

    hey I'm not against it, I applaud them for, in some ways, doing more than microsoft for the community, problem is if your backend isn't cooperating there's little point in making offers that wont be fulfilled
    Well yes they are the only ones keeping the community together. But same lame excuses everytime are boring now, its clear MS has given up and now finally been admitted by a senior executive from MS, still we see articles trying to keep the hopes alive, that some how magically devs and apps will come. MS might release 1 last phone for enthusiasts but the problem is that those of us who are happy with current set of apps might keep seeing lossing apps one by one.

    as for WC, I would have wanted them to criticize MS once in a while and calling spade a spade.
    aXross likes this.
    09-30-2016 03:03 PM
  8. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I have been saying this for a long time and you mentioned something similar. The only way MS will get the consumer market is by focusing on games. People buy games. In fact, a lot of PC users are only using windows for gaming. I can't tell you how many people mention they would use linux but they play games. And I mentioned they should come out with a mobile phone that is also a gaming device for Play Everywhere. It would gain a decent market share. Enough to draw attention. Gaming is huge. Apple knows this and having mario runner come out as timed exclusive on ios shows they know exactly what they are doing. Games are so powerful that even though this Mario game will come to android Apple believes having it as a timed exclusive will draw in more people.
    The main issue there is how established Steam already is. The type of PC games I like and purchase from Steam don't have any mobile equivalents on a any platform anyway.
    a5cent, libra89 and aXross like this.
    09-30-2016 03:06 PM
  9. EspHack's Avatar
    Your point seems to make perfect sense (and makes MS look really hypocritical), but I'm not sure it holds up. A business customer who wants a W10M devices is not the person who will eventually end up using it. I recall a member posting that the whole idea of a "business user" is bogus, because every employee is ultimately also a consumer, and just because someone gets employed won't make them suddenly want to use W10M. That's true, but it misses the important fact that the business user we're talking about in this context typically has no say in what device they will use. The phone is purchased on the user's behalf and expected to use it for business purposes. The actual customer in this scenario is the corporation's IT department or the bean counters, who calculated that porting their existing Windows software to iOS and Android would be far more expensive than just purchasing their 600 employees a W10M device which has more commonalities with their server and desktop environments.

    That's the type of corporation that we're talking about. A corporation who's staff isn't any more technically literate than the average Joe, and where IT decisions are made by a single entity on everyone's behalf, which is then deployed as a company standard. Obviously that doesn't apply to a tech company like MS where the marketing, payroll and bookkeeping departments are the only ones with a standardized IT setup, and where every second person needs a different setup for the task they are currently working on.

    I'm certainly not saying you're completely wrong though. It does say a lot that MS employees aren't using W10M. Just like 99% of the population isn't using W10M. I just don't think MS actually fits their own target audience for W10M.
    Indeed that's even more likely to be the case here, but we can also agree on my point being the conclusion reached by most common folks who see this situation, yours' requires quite a bit more knowledge than what those "corporation who's staff isn't any more technical literate than the average Joe" would likely have

    but even then, I wonder why the response wasn't a definite YES by most employees there, I mean, its perfectly fine that they use competing devices more just for the sake of being up to stuff with the real world and making sure their products work with what people actually use, and hey, they have lives outside microsoft's hq, but to not have and use, at least on occasion, a current w10m device AT ALL is the real issue here, there's just no reason for all of them not having a company provided lumia, testing and making sure w10m devices work with microsoft's products isn't equally important as competing devices? yea sure marketshare says it shouldn't be, but this is the company that wants to change that, isn't it?
    09-30-2016 03:11 PM
  10. KimRM's Avatar
    I think it's getting more and more clear that Microsoft really doesn't have a plan beyond the PC OS. They say they have, and HoloLens is a cool inovation, but it won't, if ever have any impact on the tech world, consumers or business users for many years. We will still use the small devices/phones for most of our doings, probably even more and more. We will most likely keep doing more heavy work on bigger screens, but both Google and Apple will most certainly have solutions for this in the next couple of years for their mobile OS's. So it doesn't matter that Windows 10 Mobile has Continuum.
    09-30-2016 03:18 PM
  11. Krystianpants's Avatar
    The main issue there is how established Steam already is. The type of PC games I like and purchase from Steam don't have any mobile equivalents on a any platform anyway.
    Yes and when I say Play Everywhere titles, I mean actual Triple A xbox/steam titles. They just need to take care of the tech part which they have the R&D to do and then they have to take care of the development part as well. Mobile specific games would naturally follow. It's just they would have to partner with nvidia or AMD. They would likely need a dual chip solution even take advantage of their recent work with FPGAs or ASICs for emulating some parts. I think that a bit of thickness could be forgiven. They would also need a good gamepad solution which of course could be a separate case. Again, that's MS's job to figure it out and pour money into it. Likely wouldn't happen overnight unless they are already thinking of something like this. Nintendo seems to be quiet about their next console, but a lot of it seems to be pointing to a portable continuum like console solution. Heck it could be a phone too given their recent foray into mobile gaming.

    MS must know that gaming is huge. This is probably why they are trying to sell UWP with it. What did they show off when demonstrating hololens? A game! Consumers love games.
    09-30-2016 03:18 PM
  12. KimRM's Avatar
    Yes and when I say Play Everywhere titles, I mean actual Triple A xbox/steam titles. .
    But people will still not buy it. Most people don't care about AAA titles. The main reason gaming got to be a thing on mobile phones was that it was convenient and time consuming. The most popular games are the simplest games. The type of games where you don't have to think even. People want mobile devices that integrates and syncs with their life. Microsoft doesn't seem to be able to make this happen.
    aXross likes this.
    09-30-2016 03:25 PM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    But people will still not buy it. Most people don't care about AAA titles. The main reason gaming got to be a thing on mobile phones was that it was convenient and time consuming. The most popular games are the simplest games. The type of games where you don't have to think even. People wants mobile devices that integrates and syncs with their life. Microsoft doesn't seem to be able to make this happen.
    It doesn't have to be something used by most people. It just has to be a legitimate business proposal, which it most definitely is, because successful AAA games make HUGE profits. Owning and controlling a good chunk of that market is infinitely better than owning no part of any market, which is where W10M and the UWP is now.
    Laura Knotek and EspHack like this.
    09-30-2016 03:30 PM
  14. sinime's Avatar
    Well, if it's games that make the money... Maybe while MS is retrenching in business, they should be looking at making an XBox phone.

    It's funny, but I rarely play phone games anymore... Not So much because there aren't any available, because there are several out there, but because WP7 spoiled me with having achievements on many of the games... I always went for XBL games and passed up the regular games.

    Sent from mTalk
    theefman and sahib lopez like this.
    09-30-2016 04:06 PM
  15. KimRM's Avatar
    It doesn't have to be something used by most people. It just has to be a legitimate business proposal, which it most definitely is, because successful AAA games make HUGE profits. Owning and controlling a good chunk of that market is infinitely better than owning no part of any market, which is where W10M and the UWP is now.
    You're right. It's better than the current situation, but they would have to put a lot of resources on it to make that happen. I'm not sure they think it would be worth it, seeing how little they care about the consumer market.
    09-30-2016 04:09 PM
  16. theefman's Avatar
    The actual customer in this scenario is the corporation's IT department or the bean counters, who calculated that porting their existing Windows software to iOS and Android would be far more expensive than just purchasing their 600 employees a W10M device which has more commonalities with their server and desktop environments.
    Beyond the cosmetic though are there really that many common factors between W10M and the traditional desktop/server over the competition in today's smartphone world? What used to set WM devices apart was having office, VPN, email and applications but all those things are now available on other platforms and in most, if not all cases just as good or better than what's available on W10M so are we just buying into this whole "best suited for enterprise" story too easily?

    Office for one is a first class citizen on ios and android and even comes bundled on several android devices so that advantage is gone. From reading various comments VPN on W10M lacks certain protocols that are available elsewhere so again, no reason to go W10M here again. Continuum? Take away the UWP factor (which wont matter as much to enterprises looking to run their familiar desktop programs) and any app virtualization solution from Citrix, VMware can fill that role so again W10M seems to have no advantage over other platforms.

    Is W10M more secure? Maybe but that's more likely due to security by obscurity and after applying a typical MDM solution I think ios at least would be pretty close if not on par security wise; android of course is less suited here though they are now taking security more seriously so that too could change. The other factor then is mobile business apps and obviously W10M is clearly behind, so maybe I missed something but when you consider all factors objectively I don't really see the advantage W10M has that makes it more suitable for enterprises. And I think that fact is going to have a significant impact on any enterprise focus Microsoft now seems to be in favour of.

    I just don't think MS actually fits their own target audience for W10M.
    To continue from my above comment, I think if there is to be any credibility to the claim that W10M is better suited for business than ios or android Microsoft must definitely be the showcase for that usage scenario. They are an enterprise after all and the fact that usage of their own platform is so low in their own company shows there is no real advantage to the alleged enterprise features they say W10M has and makes a mockery of their enterprise strategy.
    09-30-2016 04:23 PM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    You're right. It's better than the current situation, but they would have to put a lot of resources on it to make that happen. I'm not sure they think it would be worth it, seeing how little they care about the consumer market.
    Of course MS cares about the consumer market. Xbox should be proof of that. MS has given up on making W10M relevant to consumers, but that's not the same thing as not caring about the consumer market as a whole. To be clear, my previous posts here revolved around how MS can make the UWP relevant to consumers. At no point was I suggesting MS could make W10M relevant to consumers. That ship has sailed.

    MS already has a Windows Store and the Xbox ecosystem. Technically MS are already well on their way to being a viable UWP based Steam competitor, so I disagree that we're talking about a very substantial investment.

    Either way, consumers must be part of the UWP equation. Like I said, UWP is the real deal. MS has bet very heavily on it succeeding. MS won't go out of business if it fails, but Windows will likely become largely irrelevant to most people if it does. There's so much riding on UWP's success that MS can't afford to let it slide the way they let W10M slide. There's not a lot that wouldn't be worth doing to establish the UWP as a software platform in as many markets as possible, particularly the consumer market.
    libra89 and Laura Knotek like this.
    09-30-2016 04:33 PM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    Beyond the cosmetic though are there really that many common factors between W10M and the traditional desktop/server over the competition in today's smartphone world? What used to set WM devices apart was having office, VPN, email and applications but all those things are now available on other platforms and in most, if not all cases just as good or better than what's available on W10M so are we just buying into this whole "best suited for enterprise" story too easily?
    You're right. Traditional desktop/server software barely has any more commonalities with W10M than iOS and Android do, but I was talking about the UWP. For large corporations who develop their own LOB applications and who must support multiple form factors, the UWP does provide a very lucrative resource savings potential. That's the main reason the UWP exists.

    None of this has anything to do with the standard services (Skype, Mail, VPN, etc) or applications (Office) most of us here talk about. That's the consumer's view of the software world which just isn't relevant to the point I'm making. As long as the standard set of software services and applications are available on W10M, that will be good enough. However, realize that those services and applications are side shows when compared to the custom built software that directly supports these corporations business processes.

    To continue from my above comment, I think if there is to be any credibility to the claim that W10M is better suited for business than ios or android Microsoft must definitely be the showcase for that usage scenario. They are an enterprise after all and the fact that usage of their own platform is so low in their own company shows there is no real advantage to the alleged enterprise features they say W10M has and makes a mockery of their enterprise strategy.
    I agree that it would be better if a larger part of MS used W10M (more dogfooding). We'll have to disagree on the rest though.

    In my response to EspHack I emphasized how companies differ in terms of how computing hardware is allocated to employees and who makes the purchasing decisions. There are a lot more ways in which companies can differ from one another though. Take the typical MS representative. When such a person hits the road, they'll typically require no more than a note-taking application, MS Word, and possibly Power Point. That's it. The work they do is challenging, but their business processes that extend beyond the office don't require a lot of sophisticated software at all. Even if MS wanted to, given the work MS does, there is no way W10M could play a strategic role in that environment. Neither could iOS and neither could Android. What mobile devices MS' employees use just isn't of strategic importance. Period.

    This is completely different from, say, multinational insurance companies, or a large U.N. regulatory body. They have very complicated business processes that span the globe. They employ hundreds or thousands of people whom they'd count as part of their mobile workforce. The business processes these employees adhere to can only be managed with very expensive custom built software. That's the type of environment I'm talking about here. For them, the hardware and software their mobile workforce carries is of strategic importance.

    Whether MS does or doesn't use W10M themselves changes nothing about potential software development savings. When you can save 20 million annually by reducing the breadth of systems you must target, how credible we consumers think W10M is due to MS using or not using W10M themselves just doesn't matter.

    To be honest, none of these large companies will be investing in UWP anytime soon. At least I'd be very surprised if that were happening now. However, the ability to offer such enterprise customers the option is certainly worthwhile. When that happens, how many people at MS use W10M will be pretty much irrelevant. How many people at MS use SQL Server? Right. Probably almost nobody. That doesn't mean it's not credible as a product. It's become very successful. I don't think W10M will become very successful, at least not in its current form, but the basic principle is the same.

    You just have to forget about all the standard software services and applications you know about, even the packages targeting professionals like Dynamics, Matlab or Bookkeeping software. If that's all a business requires, then that's not the type of business MS is hoping to sell W10M to. Only if a business funds their own large software development departments is W10M possibly of interest.
    Player Piano and Laura Knotek like this.
    09-30-2016 06:05 PM
  19. dgr_874's Avatar
    one commenter on thurrot makes a good point

    they asked if microsoft employees use wp internally, short answer is no, and yet THEY ARE an enterprise that uses windows, they fit their own target audience perfectly, and yet they dont use w10m phones, how does that look?
    This is the part that really hit home for me. I can understand being the underdog and fighting your way up but, if the people who make and develop the phone don't have enough enthusiasm to use it internally, why (as a consumer) should I?
    theefman and aXross like this.
    09-30-2016 06:16 PM
  20. Krystianpants's Avatar
    Beyond the cosmetic though are there really that many common factors between W10M and the traditional desktop/server over the competition in today's smartphone world? What used to set WM devices apart was having office, VPN, email and applications but all those things are now available on other platforms and in most, if not all cases just as good or better than what's available on W10M so are we just buying into this whole "best suited for enterprise" story too easily?

    Office for one is a first class citizen on ios and android and even comes bundled on several android devices so that advantage is gone. From reading various comments VPN on W10M lacks certain protocols that are available elsewhere so again, no reason to go W10M here again. Continuum? Take away the UWP factor (which wont matter as much to enterprises looking to run their familiar desktop programs) and any app virtualization solution from Citrix, VMware can fill that role so again W10M seems to have no advantage over other platforms.

    Is W10M more secure? Maybe but that's more likely due to security by obscurity and after applying a typical MDM solution I think ios at least would be pretty close if not on par security wise; android of course is less suited here though they are now taking security more seriously so that too could change. The other factor then is mobile business apps and obviously W10M is clearly behind, so maybe I missed something but when you consider all factors objectively I don't really see the advantage W10M has that makes it more suitable for enterprises. And I think that fact is going to have a significant impact on any enterprise focus Microsoft now seems to be in favour of.



    To continue from my above comment, I think if there is to be any credibility to the claim that W10M is better suited for business than ios or android Microsoft must definitely be the showcase for that usage scenario. They are an enterprise after all and the fact that usage of their own platform is so low in their own company shows there is no real advantage to the alleged enterprise features they say W10M has and makes a mockery of their enterprise strategy.
    Well it's not for every company that's for sure. But even getting a few on it would be good. Heck they need to sign with some huge company everyone knows and it makes the news and other companies may follow. They already do business with NYPD and windows phone, it's nothing new. They did surface with the NFL. They just need a few big ones.

    What can they offer? Well, continuum is a huge difference and providing the full solutions for these companies, outfitting all the desks of employees who will be using them with monitors, keyboards, mice and docks. Providing the laptop docks for users that travel. Providing support, even as far as providing classes to employees to learn how to use everything. On top of that? Providing it in a bundle with AT&T and all windows 10/office/azure licensing... yep you heard me, AT&T. Believe me it will happen. Their partnership isn't about consumers.

    Security is another big one. Very tightly integrated solutions that allow for provisioning/logging/troubleshooting. One thing about BYOD is that the IT guy has no control over your phone, they really can't get into your privacy. You can pretend you didn't get a call but they won't really know. You won't give them the device to troubleshoot while you're using a temporary. They can't easily swap your phone if something happens to it or you lose it.

    They will have separate enterprise stores for all sorts of business apps and believe me they will get them. This is the biggest business company in the world, people will not ignore them in this area. This is a different territory all together. If there are apps a big customer needs, MS will provide a temporary cloud solution and likely work with the company to get it on UWP. Every party would benefit. The company already knows that there is demand.

    Sometimes the close association with business is their problem. Apple is associated with consumer facing products while MS with business. Windows is known as a more productive but less user friendly/intuitive OS. And when people hear "windows on phones?" they get confused because it's this complex thing. Windows 10 makes it way more productive but adds consumer value too. The start menu was designed to be simplistic and modern and so that people can identify it easily on any hardware using it. It's a mix of business/consumer. You have the simplicity of the start menu, one source for apps, notifications, integration and ease of use. You have added inking features, mapping services, cortana integration with office and other business apis .Business features can be added through the features section as well. You also have this other side with a diverse set of applications for getting your work done and using more advanced capabilities of those applications to increase efficiency. You also have access to more complex gaming that you would find on consoles. Developer features are now a huge part of windows 10. Even a linux subsystem so that they don't need to boot a linux virtual machine to do some coding/testing/scripting. Honestly this thing is made for everyone you can think of. But the beauty is that customers don't need to be exposed to anything than the simple side. It's still not finished obviously. The control panel settings are slowly being moved over to the easier and simpler settings menu. I think that they would benefit from having the settings part have "basic" and "advanced" radio buttons. This way people who don't want to see the more complex settings don't have to. Maybe that's what they will do, who knows. It would work well on Windows mobile too.

    Anyways, if MS says they are getting into business,they mean business... hehe
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    09-30-2016 06:41 PM
  21. Joe920's Avatar
    I know that's the official line. I just don't see it. A potential customer implies that there exists a demand that people are willing to spend money on to meet. Just having a computer sitting infront of 400 million faces that MS can push software too doesn't constitute demand.
    Agreed. Still, even if UWP apps are perceived as pointless by the vast majority of users, if only 1% of users are interested, that's still 4 million potential users. A smaller market to be sure, but a market nonetheless. How this will develop is anyone's guess, but there are apps in the store, and they have not been downloaded zero times. I find it hard to believe that the number of decent apps will decrease, but who knows. I'm at least curious to see how things will develop.
    Player Piano and a5cent like this.
    09-30-2016 06:51 PM
  22. John Callaham's Avatar
    Microsoft still rules in the enterprise with Windows so it makes sense to continue to support Windows 10 Mobile for that audience.
    libra89, Guytronic and fatclue_98 like this.
    09-30-2016 09:33 PM
  23. kristalsoldier's Avatar
    This is an excellent point! Was funny when @donasarkar was caught using iPhone 6S...for research of course.👍 oh wait she was using it take selfies with friends
    That IS research!!! Don't you see?
    xandros9 likes this.
    09-30-2016 11:15 PM
  24. xandros9's Avatar
    That IS research!!! Don't you see?
    Well I'm forming an opinion on iOS 10 right now so i broke out the 5c for the next couple days.
    09-30-2016 11:48 PM
  25. Ish68's Avatar
    Microsoft are the best example of stale software for Windows phones. Even the Lumia Offers app that comes installed on new phones, doesn't work. MS really need to get their so called software departments working harder to fix, update and create new mobile apps. After all MS should be creating full featured apps to show exactly what the phones are capable off and then other software companies or app creator's might have a good reason to work with windows mobiles, but until MS can support it's own phones, why should others. For over 5 years I have been contacting HSBC bank UK, Sky TV and others about apps for Windows phones and they don't want to know and I get the feeling by their replies, it's because they can see MS sitting back and doing nothing to help or support big businesses create apps for Windows mobiles. MS where here way before Apple & Android with phone enabled PDA's, but they just have no energy or excitement for their own product's, which is a shame because they could be the number one mobile OS out there.

    Originally posted by a5cent
    Originally Posted by George Ponder
    What Microsoft needs to do is reassure the development community not to give up. My fear is that Microsoft may not kill off W10 Mobile, but the third party developers may.
    Wouldn't it be fair to say that has already been killed?

    The typical app that sells for $1.49 is unsustainable without a huge (i.e. mass market and consumer focused) user base. A focus on business that does little to nothing to excite consumers necessarily means abandoning that "huge" user base. That mass market user base is going away. It's already in its last throws. The app market will go along with it. Developers won't immediately remove their apps from the store, but the apps will grow stale and eventually be removed when they no longer work. IMHO we can already see the first signs of that.

    IMHO much of the app development for W10M will likely be relegated to corporate stores rather than the public Windows Store where we get our apps from now.

    That's one of the reasons I see PC and console gaming as a (last) potential option to save the UWP in the consumer space. At $60 it's possible to get the ball rolling without requiring a user base of quite the same size.
    xandros9, libra89 and Laura Knotek like this.
    10-01-2016 06:03 AM
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