This is scary for w10m consumers

[EspHack]

^yea thats the problem, consumers expect things to arrive next morning, as it stands today w10 in general is too bugged and compromised to be pushed harder just to make it clearer to the public that they should avoid it, this is a dream still under construction guys, dont forget that

they told the press plans for mobile begin in 2017, so thats when rumors start pilling up until a mid year or end year announcement happens, thats what I expect to happen

in the mean time, there's no clear answer to anything or what to be doing while we reach that future, see me and others here criticized how they dont showcase w10m internally, but maybe thats for the best, to not let the public see it yet

 

[a5cent]

MS approach towards towards courting devs is very short sighted, they pay a few big ones to develop apps and make a statement that we have the top 10-top20 apps already and then fanboys start to rejoice that these 10-20 apps are all what we need. The devs then abandon the app, they neither put links to WP app on their website, nor ever bother to update, treat it as a second class citizen, while we debate on how pinning an edge tile solves all our app problems.

True, but just for the record, MS stopped doing that quite a while ago. It backfired on them, for the reasons you mentioned and more.

 

[11B1P]

^yea thats the problem, consumers expect things to arrive next morning, as it stands today w10 in general is too bugged and compromised

I don't completely agree. I'm using W10 on a Surface Pro and it does just fine. I'm also on Release Preview on my Nokia Icon and it does just fine. Both devices are running older hardware, so any performance issues can be attributed to that. My Icon is my only phone and I rarely have issues, nothing a soft reset can't resolve.

 

[Krystianpants]

You can't compare W10m's first year to iphone's first year. An accurate comparison is today's W10m to today's iOS or today's Android. W10 has to do TODAY what the other guys are doing TODAY. If W10 isn't up to speed or even ahead, with the same or better features as the other players, it is set to repeat the same fate as webOS, or BlackBerry.

Well, sorry I wasn't being clear. I'm strictly speaking from a Desktop point of view and apps. The concept of apps to windows desktop is quite new which would be a comparison to the first opening of the ios app store. If anything windows 10 is at a disadvantage because of trust issues with MS. It just got introduced a year ago and hasn't even been a good experience to begin with. Heck there's even API features that devs are waiting on if you look through dev community. So I don't know why anyone expected it to blow up in the first year and become a huge success. This isn't pokemon Go.

 

[theefman]

You're right. Traditional desktop/server software barely has any more commonalities with W10M than iOS and Android do, but I was talking about the UWP. For large corporations who develop their own LOB applications and who must support multiple form factors, the UWP does provide a very lucrative resource savings potential. That's the main reason the UWP exists.

Actually, if you think about it, UWP has no benefit to enterprise because they are already using x86 LOB applications so unless they are going to spend resources on rewriting all their software to UWP they will be creating mobile specific apps to complement their desktop software in which case UWP doesn't bring any benefits and they will just develop for the platforms people use, ie ios and android. This is whats happening in my organization, we have apps for ios and android to access the data while mobile and the desktop programs stay the same. So there really is no benefit to UWP to the vast majority of enterprises that justifies a switch to W10M.

I agree that it would be better if a larger part of MS used W10M (more dogfooding). We'll have to disagree on the rest though.

In my response to EspHack I emphasized how companies differ in terms of how computing hardware is allocated to employees and who makes the purchasing decisions. There are a lot more ways in which companies can differ from one another though. Take the typical MS representative. When such a person hits the road, they'll typically require no more than a note-taking application, MS Word, and possibly Power Point. That's it. The work they do is challenging, but their business processes that extend beyond the office don't require a lot of sophisticated software at all. Even if MS wanted to, given the work MS does, there is no way W10M could play a strategic role in that environment. Neither could iOS and neither could Android. What mobile devices MS' employees use just isn't of strategic importance. Period.

This is completely different from, say, multinational insurance companies, or a large U.N. regulatory body. They have very complicated business processes that span the globe. They employ hundreds or thousands of people whom they'd count as part of their mobile workforce. The business processes these employees adhere to can only be managed with very expensive custom built software. That's the type of environment I'm talking about here. For them, the hardware and software their mobile workforce carries is of strategic importance.

Whether MS does or doesn't use W10M themselves changes nothing about potential software development savings. When you can save 20 million annually by reducing the breadth of systems you must target, how credible we consumers think W10M is due to MS using or not using W10M themselves just doesn't matter.

You just have to forget about all the standard software services and applications you know about, even the packages targeting professionals like Dynamics, Matlab or Bookkeeping software. If that's all a business requires, then that's not the type of business MS is hoping to sell W10M to. Only if a business funds their own large software development departments is W10M possibly of interest.

I edited your responses for length, but your points are valid. However while that can be applicable to other companies it cant apply to Microsoft because they are the ones trying to sell the idea that their mobile platform is suitable for businesses, and even if its just as a showcase they should be able to have some usage of their platform in their company just to show that it does live up to their claims, so when you see that they have so little interest in it. are completely apathetic towards their mobile OS its hard to take any claim they make as to its suitability for enterprise seriously.

 

[Krystianpants]

I agree. I made a similar gaming related pitch back on page one. Still, MS is one of those massive companies you're talking about, and MS just spent a decade trying to push WP/W10M on people and failed.
Just as WP, the UWP also has a lot of potential. MS just needs to be far more agressive pushing it, or it will fail just like W10M did.
Right now I don't see any big UWP related push from MS, gaming related or otherwise. MS should have came out swinging right after they improved DirectX and vsync support in the UWP. So far not much has happened... it all feels far too much like a repeat of MS lethargic approach to WP/W10M.
So in summary, yes, MS could eventually make the UWP and even W10M relevant to developers. So far they have not...

MS is a software company that can't just build software and hardware together and push it globally to everyone like Apple. Now MS combined with all the hardware manufacturers that own this industry is a different story.

Hey, but even then MS did have some success with windows phones(4% at some point) and it happened to be around when they also had a hardware partner, but one partner just can't do it. Not to mention all the other huge issues they had which they are trying to fix now. Even for windows 10 mobile devices barely any manufacturers put anything out, no one really gave it their best either.

To us it may look like MS is not trying/pushing but my guess is they are trying hard and scrambling hard to do all this. There's still a lot of API functionality that the gaming industry requires and they need to get that in there. They released a product that is not finished. They are working on SOOOO many projects. The scope of this overall project is insane if you think about it. The problem with having an unfinished project going out to the public in order to speed up your transition is that you get bad press. It's hard trying to make something that is not finished still stable for the general public. It's a very tightly controlled process. But unfortunately something always goes wrong. Take this newest update. Every day I turn on my PC and have to wait 10 minutes for it to fail an update and roll back. This is out in production where real users are experiencing it and they acknowledge they know the problem and have to be scrambling like crazy now trying to get it fixed. I feel bad for their devs, they are probably very sleep deprived.

Some users will shrug it off as "it's free". Others will get angry that it's not acceptable. And honestly it isn't acceptable but because I know they will fix it I give them some slack. I usually let it boot while i use my phone. A lot of users are even thinking "well I didn't have these problems with windows 7, how is this an upgrade?". This sort of stuff drops market share and a market share drop looks bad in front of companies/devs.

And oh man has there been bad press. If they survive this and succeed people will write about the huge struggles that lead to their success hehe. That or Windows 11 will come and change everything!

 

[a5cent]

Actually, if you think about it, UWP has no benefit to enterprise because they are already using x86 LOB applications so unless they are going to spend resources on rewriting all their software to UWP they will be creating mobile specific apps to complement their desktop software in which case UWP doesn't bring any benefits and they will just develop for the platforms people use, ie ios and android. This is whats happening in my organization, we have apps for ios and android to access the data while mobile and the desktop programs stay the same. So there really is no benefit to UWP to the vast majority of enterprises that justifies a switch to W10M.

I agree that the proposition is problematic, but for different reasons. Like you, I also doubt any corporation with a large LOB application will rewrite all their software in one go. Particularly not if UWP compatibility is the only goal. That would be ridiculous. That will happen piecemeal, as part of the long-term and ongoing software modernization effort that every large corporation deals with, and combined with changes that provide value to the business. This is nothing new. The software world evolves faster than pretty much any other industry. It's always been necessary for companies to consider modernization. A company that's still using Cobol on a 30 year old Mainframe won't find any good hires. They'll be lucky if they can find anybody at all to keep their solutions updated so as to conform with the ever evolving legal landscape and changing company practices.

I know plenty of companies that have been doing gradual migrations for decades. There is often no other option. Moving to UWP would just be another step on the long path they're already on.

The real reason no company will do this now is because the UWP is still new and unproven technology. MS must also prove that the UWP will stick around for the long haul. Until then this is all rather theoretical, but at some point, provided it's successful, the UWP will become viable and offer those benefits I mentioned. Slimming down the development technology portfolio and exploiting synergies are always important goals.

I don't think it's accurate to say the UWP is "useless".

However while that can be applicable to other companies it cant apply to Microsoft because they are the ones trying to sell the idea that their mobile platform is suitable for businesses, and even if its just as a showcase they should be able to have some usage of their platform in their company just to show that it does live up to their claims, so when you see that they have so little interest in it. are completely apathetic towards their mobile OS its hard to take any claim they make as to its suitability for enterprise seriously.

Yeah, we're going to have to disagree.

Only in the most trivial cases is a "business phone" only about VPN, streamlined remote management, security and MS' services. Again, we have to get past that. It's about those things too, but I don't think there's a lot to differentiate the contenders from one another in those areas. With the exception of security, none of those issues make for a very useful or unique sales pitch. If you still want to see that sort of setup in action you can get MS to refer you to one of their customers in your region. MS doesn't have that sort of setup because it makes no sense for their business.

However, that doesn't mean MS doesn't have a showcase that makes the case for W10M! MS have eliminated W10M development as a separate budget position and integrated it into W10 development. MS is literally saving close to a billion dollars annually by no longer having to develop WP as a separate entity and by having eliminated all of their separate WP apps. That's what W10M is about, and if that isn't an awesome showcase for companies with their own LOB applications I don't know what is.

MS absolutely are using their own products, but being a software development company, they are using it in ways that makes sense for companies that develop software. MS aren't using W10M in ways that makes sense to consumers, but CTOs will understand the appeal.

 

[Ali El]

Before I go any further, this post is IMHO. (also heads up for a long post)

As a dev that works closely with other devs in the office, I can see how platforms get prioritized over each other and honestly when you bring a vision game into a day to day game things get weird.

I will explain. Every time something "cool" comes out, like say an iOS or Android update, we expect the same routine instructions to fall on our laps, and it almost always starts with "Release changes to..." basically redirecting the priority to the platform that is hot right now. And this isn't only our office but from others in the area as well. You want to ride the wave of each excitement, now I know this might come as common sense to you but I feel this might attribute to a few issues with MS.

Now I like the wavelength MS is on right now but I think MS problem is that it always wants to land the hail marry pass.
- the way i see the cycle -
Platform announcement (Good Idea) > slow progression > competition gains traction > disappear for sometime > small update > numbers plummet > announce record-breaking code breaking changes, change name, change address, move to Hawaii, send developers to the alps > devs complain but develop anyway > MS shift in change > ??? > New Platform announcement...

And we can see this through the history, silverlight comes and people love the speed, but devs are scratching their heads at how limited it is (And yes I was one of those.) The frustration is relayed to the store and now users are frustrated. WinRT comes along and tries to salvage that, etc etc.

My view on the matter
Personally I think the idea to make a business phone is slightly premature. I think if there is such a thing as a surface phone, then it needs to be painted in the right light to flourish. Now all that I wrote above is the hustle and bustle of daily software life. Yes there is room for improvement etc but we know software will never stop changing (well nothing in life really does right?)
Yes WM10 (or whatever, yes another thing MS needs to work on) is behind in things, Yes it might be too late to salvage anything consumer related in terms of mobile as many see. but, I think MS can bounce back.

The fix
MS speaks about making mobile just another node in your daily life, and that is a vision game. MS is good at creating their software visions come true so we need to give them time to stick true to that. They've come through in the cloud platform, their tools are phenomenal and they're only getting better. Here is the problem. MS relies on OEMS to produce but stick true to their vision, and as long as we humans will differ in opinions, this is a recipe for disaster. I believe they need to produce their own hardware, much like they're doing with the surface brand and show other companies what they need to be doing. As apple sets the bar and all third party have to either live up to that standard or no business.

In short we now are starting to have the software, but need the hardware. Why do you think the Lumia 920 will forever be my favorite lumia? because Hardware and software came together perfectly. Even though that alone wasn't enough it got us started. First you have to give the people what they want, and when they're listening, give them what you want.

We see how well the surface brand is doing and you ask yourself, why?
Many things attribute here but if I had to bet anything it would be this simple:
People want something that they are proud to pull out in public. How many people are going to be excited to pull out a brick while their friends have sleek, shiny toys? (yes almost all devices now are copy cats but ask why?) and no, even though you and I are proud to carry around tech savvy devices, take into account that the target market are made out of people that go to places just so they can share pictures of themselves on snapchat and instagram for other people to experience them experiencing it. so we got it, make it slim, but powerful. If you NEED to compromise on a couple horsepower to make it slimmer, do it. Remember that the gained horsepower makes for a great ad campaign next time around (apple eh?) (also this is where you can see MS in their cycle. They spend time developing, when they cracked the code other Manufactures moved on, now they have to prepare for the hail mary)

So why is it premature?
If MS produces something this appealing, it should not pull the "business" trigger just yet. Things are starting to align here. Surface book and Surface pro are good devices. Xbox is a strong force and PC is showing pride, so if their vision of nodes wants to be of any truth, then all they're missing here is just the mobile. The surface phone needs to be released as MS interpretation of what a smartphone should look like. Putting it under anything related to business, and the young people will walk away. Heck I myself cringe when I hear it out loud. As a developer I am like nope, not again. I'm out.

But Ali, how do you break the dev-user cycle?
Developers are like artist, they want to see their work be used and viewed by the public, and how does that happen? By users using their apps, so as a no brainer devs need users, because they want notoriety. And users want devs for apps/games etc because they need to be with the crowd. So where is the link? the device itself. Give a dev an exciting device and they will be excited to try their knowledge to test the device, and give a user that same exciting device and they want to show it off. What is the byproduct of that? A dev with users to develop for, and a user with apps being developed for.

Now I know there are so many other factors to take into account here but let's face it, step one is a desperate need for that hardware, no not third party, something straight from MS.

Sorry for the long post (potato anyone? )

 

[mtf1380]

Now I know there are so many other factors to take into account here but let's face it, step one is a desperate need for that hardware, no not third party, something straight from MS.

And it needs to be introduced with a "FIRST-CLASS, Top-Drawer, Action Packed, Excitement Generating, 'Accompanying Advertising Champaign'". APPLES has been doing it since the 80's, Google is now following this example: appealing to 'ALL' demographics thru creative advertisement - leaning heavily toward the youth, but appealing to the middle-aged and beyond, at the same time - with 'Feature Focused Performance' Excitement. MS needs to create "be cool, and having fun" with some innovative advertising; when they launch the next big thing! (surface phone?)

 

[Ali El]

exactly, you on the money there! They NEED to create that fashion statement. "Listen, your laptop (surface book) is gorgeous, you know it, we know it. So here is a phone to go with it. Enjoy. " Done.

Just imagine this. You're playing on your xbox and hit pause, because now you have to leave to class. A friend texts you asking for a ride, and you're like "sure I can pick you up." You're waiting outside for your friend but as usual he/she is taking their sweet time. Take out your surface phone, unpause and continue playing. (being streamed from your xbox)
You go to class and you whip out your surface book while you prepare for class, but the teacher is late, now you can continue playing on exactly where you left off. Cool huh? don't worry, streaming is from the friend's and schools wifi

It will be as if all you need is a surface to experience windows 10

 

[Tullphan]

So...what's the chances of W10M being discontinued & if so, what becomes of our phones?

 

[EspHack]

So...what's the chances of W10M being discontinued & if so, what becomes of our phones?

zero

 

[Ali El]

So...what's the chances of W10M being discontinued & if so, what becomes of our phones?

very slim I would say, but we all know MS does whatever it wants

 

[a5cent]

^ for the time being, it's zero. Within the next four years? Impossible to say, but not zero. IMHO as you say, still very slim.

 

[FXi2]

I don't completely agree. I'm using W10 on a Surface Pro and it does just fine. I'm also on Release Preview on my Nokia Icon and it does just fine. Both devices are running older hardware, so any performance issues can be attributed to that. My Icon is my only phone and I rarely have issues, nothing a soft reset can't resolve.

I have this same setup and it works great

 

[Ish68]

What really gets to me is were others like Android and iOS seem to listen to what users and app developers of their products are saying and needing, Microsoft listen to themselves 95% of the time and 5% to outside sources. I'm disabled and haven't been able to work for over 20 years, but I really like Windows phones, both for there ease of use and the quality of the camera's. Why would Microsoft advertise the phones for a very short time, telling people about the excellent camera and then stop all adverts. They have then started saying the phones are going to be for enterprise use, but were will that leave everyone who purchased the phones because they liked them.
I don't know anyone who uses a phone for work, whether it's Android, iOS or Windows Phone, that does not use apps which are games, social media or entertainment, along with business apps. The way it looks to me, is Microsoft dedicate the phones to enterprise, they will not only lose all the regular users who have supported them over the years, but also business people who like to relax at times playing a game, watching a video on YouTube or checking Facebook. A lot of businesses also promote things on social media, by apps and other ways, but the way things are going they would need another make of phone to do anything that was not to do with business.

I have supported Microsoft for years and even tried using feedback to developers, to help keep things going like lots of other Windows phone supporters. It's a shame Microsoft are so blind as to what is happening under their noses. I've got my Lumia 800, 925 and 950 from Vodafone UK, who don't have a clue about the phones, will not support them with apps and don't advertise. Microsoft should have worked with all the major networks like others and even helped create apps to support the phones on the network (The MyVodafone account information app is available for Android and iOS only). I would like a phone to still be working 10-15 years after purchasing it, like my old Nokia's and not 1-2 years like Microsoft seem to think is fair to people purchasing them. If you purchase things in a shop they have to be as advertised and able to do what they are meant for, does that also apply to mobile phones. If it does I have 2 going on for 3 Windows phones that do not do the things they were advertised to do and I should therefore be able to ask legally for a refund under the sale of goods act.

I have felt sorry for the big number of Windows phone developers that have been messed about by Microsoft over the years and can see both why they are leaving the system and why other are not even trying to develop for the phone.

Sorry about the long winded post, but feel I have purchase 3 bricks, wasting about £1,200.

 

[Vasil Dechkov]

With that "enterprise" thing, they are abandoning all their previous customers.

Why? Because WP has always been about consumers and BRIGHT COLORS, it was always about being user(consumer)-friendly and if someone bought a WP before W10M that's probably the reason they did.

What happened to Joel Belfiore and Ben bragging about how "Windows Phone isn't for every one of us, it's for each of us"?

You just can't try hard to be a consumer based platform and then do a complete 180 turn. Doesn't work like that.

Sent from mTalk

 

[Rosebank]

The entire mobile strategy and vision is lost and loosing interest, UWP wont get enough interest and therefore the mobile division will never do anything but sink (treading water currently) .
This is an abysmal example of how to treat consumers and a fine example in company mismanagement.

 

[Joe920]

MS convergence strategy: :sweaty: