10-12-2016 02:19 PM
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  1. hacer619's Avatar
    This is how I see the "paradigm shift". So first of all I have to say that Microsoft did an amazing thing by unifying its OS (Windows 10). which you know by One Platform, One Store on different device categories. Now, windows 10 mobile is the platforms for phones.

    So is it wise by Microsoft to abandon the phone segment? I would say no, but they are undergoing a retrenchment and by retrenchment I mean they will focus on a market segment the will succeed in. That is the Enterprise.

    So, will they abandon the consumer market? Not as you think or read on the internet. They will keep the platform for the consumers, those who want nothing but windows. This means that if you want a Windows phone you'll have to grab a phone that is intended for the enterprise.

    Think of the HP elite x3. You may find it with some of the top hardware on the market but it is marketed and intended for businesses. So, you can grab one even if it is not intended to be a consumer phone.

    So why not abandon Windows 10 mobile? If you are a daily internet reader you will have noticed that a lot are mentioning the "next big thing". Something that will introduce a new category and will be the next personal computing device. So abandoning Windows 10 mobile is not a good idea and keeping it running with a low market share will at least pave the way for Microsoft to jump quickly to the next trend of devices which is the 'next big thing'.

    How will it succeed with a smaller store and less developers on the platform?
    let's take Apple as an example: they have the iPhone with around 1.5 million apps in the store and an amazingly huge dev support and on average any decent app needs about 6 months of development to get it usable and ready to be downloaded from the store. Now, let's pretend the next big thing is the apple tv (even though this device exists in the market, let us pretend it doesn't). For, apple it requires a completely new dev written apps for this next big thing (apple tv), you can't just use iPhone or mac or watch apps in the apple tv because it runs a completely different OS.
    This is where Microsoft is the strongest of them all. A universal platform will make Microsoft to continue to what it offers (apps, services, maybe UI, etc.) with what is referred to as the 'next big thing'. If you didn't get this, it means the next big thing device from Microsoft will have the services in windows 10 and the same store with the same apps running on it. Apps my need UI tweaking or modification by devs to make them perfect but not new rewritten apps.

    what is still unclear is will Microsoft continue to use the CONSUMER feedback within the windows insiders program to improve the platform or just concentrate on what is related to businesses.
    Last edited by hacer619; 10-07-2016 at 03:56 AM.
    dgr_874, mtf1380, grininja and 1 others like this.
    10-06-2016 06:15 PM
  2. dgr_874's Avatar
    All good points!

    If Microsoft could just stabilize everything for a while and let what little Dev interest is left grow for a few years instead of rebooting, we might have something good on our hands...
    hacer619 and Kevin Rush like this.
    10-06-2016 06:27 PM
  3. PerfectReign's Avatar
    with Microsoft, a software company, their main source of revenue is software and continues to be in that field. I doubt they receive a lot of revenue from their hardware sectors such as the surface line, mobile, band and others.
    That's correct. We enterprise customers pay millions for services and software. I have 160 Windows servers (not sure how many cores ATM), my company has 77,000 Office 365 licenses, we have developer licenses, SQL server licenses, and we just paid a Microsoft tech to be onsite for two weeks to help us install, configure and train on SCOM, SCCM, and SCORTH.

    By comparison, my department has only bought fifteen Surface pro 3 and 4 devices.

    I think what MS wants is to ensure a mobile/cloud first strategy where customers use services regardless of hardware. I had my former TAM tell us they didn't care whether we used O365 and the various business services on a PC running Windows, a PC running MacOS, a mobile device or an Ipad/Android tablet.

    Sent from mTalk
    Chintan Gohel and hacer619 like this.
    10-06-2016 06:36 PM
  4. hacer619's Avatar
    Thank you! I have been reading and analyzing a lot about this topic. however, I don't think there will be another reboot. In the end there might be smartphones that wont receive new builds due to outdated hardware but not a reboot.

    However, I do agree with you about the non upgradable wp8 devices if that is what you were pointing to.

    since the retrenchment Microsoft have nothing to lose if they let those devices upgrade. Even if they run slower, at the same time they'll win more windows 10 (mobile, but still considered) users rather that not offering the upgrade and making users switch to other platforms for the sake of what they refer as "these devices did not achieve the optimum performance".

    I would also agree that Microsoft sometimes have dumb moves. They may not have a critical impact but instead losing consumer trust.
    Kevin Rush and Chintan Gohel like this.
    10-06-2016 06:38 PM
  5. Chintan Gohel's Avatar

    How will it succeed with a smaller store and less developers on the platform?
    let's take Apple as an example: they have the iPhone with around 1.5 billion apps in the store and an amazingly huge dev support and on average any decent app needs about 6 months of development to get it usable and ready to be downloaded from the store. Now, let's pretend the next big thing is the apple tv (even though this device exists in the market, let us pretend it doesn't). For, apple it requires a completely new dev written apps for this next big thing (apple tv), you can't just use iPhone or mac or watch apps in the apple tv because it runs a completely different OS.
    This is where Microsoft is the strongest of them all. A universal platform will make Microsoft to continue to what it offers (apps, services, maybe UI, etc.) with what is referred to as the 'next big thing'. If you didn't get this, it means the next big thing device from Microsoft will have the services in windows 10 and the same store with the same apps running on it. Apps my need UI tweaking or modification by devs to make them perfect but not new rewritten apps.

    what is still unclear is will Microsoft continue to use the CONSUMER feedback within the windows insiders program to improve the platform or just concentrate on what is related to businesses.
    1.5 billion or million apps? The billion sounds too high

    You're right on the UWP idea, MS at the moment are really ahead in being prepared for the next form factor

    Even though the mobile aspect of windows is shrinking and being retargeted to enterprise, I believe even some individuals in businesses can be insiders and support. Most of the changes are also reflected from the pc side of windows which does have a large user base
    Kevin Rush and hacer619 like this.
    10-07-2016 01:11 AM
  6. hacer619's Avatar
    fixed! and Thanks for pointing this out. I was probably thinking devices when I typed it.
    10-07-2016 03:58 AM
  7. kaktus1389's Avatar
    We do not yet know whats in RS2, initial reports suggest only continuum based enhancements, basically features which would lure business users and make continuum more practical and then may be few more security features etc, in short only enterprise features.
    So name a feature that would help consumers? I don't see why wouldn't continuum be attractive for a part of consumers as well...
    Kevin Rush likes this.
    10-07-2016 10:22 AM
  8. techiez's Avatar
    So name a feature that would help consumers?
    Interactive live tiles(music controls etc)
    Multi window.
    App lock/ability to hide/locks selected photos or apps.
    Expand cortana to more countries.
    Edge improvements
    Make MS own app tiles transparent, they look ugly at this moment n ruin the start screen.
    Multiple sound profiles(like in symbian)

    n so on.....

    Continuum as it is, is not yet ready to take the world by storm.
    10-07-2016 12:00 PM
  9. Guzzler3's Avatar
    But can you really use integration as a selling point now? All Microsoft software is available on iPhone and Androids. I use all three daily, and i find almost no difference in my work flow(other than having to use 3rd party software on W10M).

    I find people love the W10M interface a lot when they first see it. Then they ask to use Snapchat, or whatever other software isn't available and they get turned off right there. I'm dissapointed too. I'm the last out of about 10 people still using W10M (and it's no longer my primary after the Band crap). I'm looking forward to the next big thing in mobile that I think Microsoft is well placed to compete in.
    Good points, now. But way back when it was just WP8, they missed a huge opportunity to capitalize on its features. Had they done so, and the sales had been better, then there might have been a bigger incentive for more developers to port their apps to this platform.

    But sadly it's all water under the bridge now. MS screwed up, and is now screwing us. Mainly because the platform was a "moving target" and programmers kept seeing things change to much (interface guidelines, API's changing, etc.)

    Now it's settled down, a bit, the only idea I have left for MS to help this platform to make it back to the consumer side is to contact say the top 20 or so mainstream apps that aren't on this platform (Snapchat, Tinder, etc.) and say "We would like to port your app to this platform. We will do it for free, if you give us the source code (under NDA). We will support it for one year, in house, and we will also embed one of our programmers at your home location to educate your in house programmers about the platform so it will be a smooth transition from us supporting the code back to you. We will also provide Visual Studio for free for X number years, to show off how easy it is to "write once, port many"."

    Microsoft will take a hit, monetarily wise doing this, but as the saying goes "You have to spend money, to make money, in the long term". But I can see Steve Balmer going nuts in the board meetings, throwing chairs and such if this was proposed.
    libra89, Kevin Rush and dgr_874 like this.
    10-07-2016 12:07 PM
  10. david003's Avatar
    With all the serious bugs being released into production in Windows Phone 10, I think it must be deliberate. It's hard to believe that Microsoft engineers could be that incompetent.

    It's almost like when a radio station gets taken over and they start broadcasting nasty noises to get their listeners to go away and stop listening.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stunting_(broadcasting)

    To their current Windows Phone users, they don't want them anymore. Please stop being our customers. Go away.

    To what end, I don't know, though.
    Timbre70 likes this.
    10-11-2016 03:07 AM
  11. mikepalma's Avatar
    With all the serious bugs being released into production in Windows Phone 10, I think it must be deliberate. It's hard to believe that Microsoft engineers could be that incompetent.

    It's almost like when a radio station gets taken over and they start broadcasting nasty noises to get their listeners to go away and stop listening.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stunting_(broadcasting)

    To their current Windows Phone users, they don't want them anymore. Please stop being our customers. Go away.

    To what end, I don't know, though.
    No its not that insidious. MS is a major business w responsibilities to its shareholders. Windows phone (w10m) is a pitiful .5% player. So, MS wisely isn't wasting talent there. The B team of Gabe, Dona, and others are.assigned to w10m - they are not mean spirited, just less competent. The real talent is in Surface, xBox and the other profit centers so MS can make $ for its shareholders.
    10-11-2016 03:22 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ FUD.

    We can agree that it's not an all-star team working on W10M (they did have that for WP7), but the rest is simply not true.

    Gabe and/or Dona, who are managers for the insider program, have almost no say when it comes to things like QA, release schedules, or the actual implementation of OS components, so they are certainly not the right people to blame. They could be the smartest people on the planet and yet that would change very little in terms of software quality. Just because you know their names doesn't mean they are making all the important decisions. They hold PR and product management positions.

    The issues with W10M were first and foremost a matter of time. Nothing more. I can guarantee that the engineers were begging to have the release of W10M postponed in order to fix problems, and that management wouldn't have it. The only way to suspect this is down to incompetent engineers is to know nothing about commercial software development.

    The problems they have now are the result of having to test every little change on a gazillion devices (xbox, phones, desktops, HoloLens, Raspberry Pi, etc) and OSes (Server, IoT, mobile, Holographic, etc), and not having everything setup in a way to make this testing nightmare manageable. I suspect they will be working on such capabilities for quite some time yet.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-11-2016 at 08:41 AM. Reason: formatting only
    tgp, libra89 and Laura Knotek like this.
    10-11-2016 04:14 AM
  13. mikepalma's Avatar
    ^ FUD.



    We can agree that it's not an all-star team working on W10M (they did have that for WP7), but the rest is simply not true.



    Gabe and/or Dona, who are managers for the insider program, have almost no say when it comes to things like QA, release schedules, or the actual implementation of OS components, so they are certainly not the right people to blame. They could be the smartest people on the planet and yet that would change very little in terms of software quality. Just because you know their names doesn't mean they are making all the important decisions. They hold PR and product management positions.


    The issues with W10M were first and foremost a matter of time. Nothing more. I can guarantee that the engineers were begging to have the release of W10M postponed in order to fix problems, and that management wouldn't have it. The only way to suspect this is down to incompetent engineers is to know nothing about commercial software development.



    The problems they have now are the result of having to test every little change on a gazillion devices (xbox, phones, desktops, HoloLens, Raspberry Pi, etc) and OSes (Server, IoT, mobile, Holographic, etc), and not having everything setup in a way to make this testing nightmare manageable. I suspect they will be working on such capabilities for quite some time yet.
    You obviously have no experience as a PMP or major project manager. Regardless you missed the point= profits matter to MS' board.
    flitchtag likes this.
    10-11-2016 04:28 AM
  14. a5cent's Avatar
    You obviously have no experience as a PMP or major project manager. Regardless you missed the point= profits matter to MS' board.
    In addition to that not being true, it also doesn't matter, as Gabe and Dona aren't project managers. That profits matter is obvious, and not what I was refuting.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-11-2016 06:05 AM
  15. mikepalma's Avatar
    In addition to that not being true, it also doesn't matter, as Gabe and Dona aren't project managers. That profits matter is obvious, and not what I was refuting.
    Wrong as usual, but makes no difference...Dona is the "program chief" and MS focuses the real talent on the profit centers, like its Board directs it to do.
    flitchtag likes this.
    10-11-2016 11:18 AM
  16. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Continuum as it is, is not yet ready to take the world by storm.
    You mean not ready to take the US by storm. In many countries access to a desktop-class browser on a larger display is gold. There are many folks who can only afford one computing device and it's usually a smartphone. Continuum can save these people trips to an internet cafe, or what us Cubans call "la cabina".
    Laura Knotek, libra89 and a5cent like this.
    10-11-2016 11:37 AM
  17. sumton's Avatar
    i don't know but they are going to do what they are going to do and you should do what you have to do its your choice to stick around until this shift happen or move to something else until that shift happen, no one forcing anyone to stick to windows mobile do what you want.
    10-11-2016 11:54 AM
  18. techiez's Avatar
    You mean not ready to take the US by storm. In many countries access to a desktop-class browser on a larger display is gold. There are many folks who can only afford one computing device and it's usually a smartphone. Continuum can save these people trips to an internet cafe, or what us Cubans call "la cabina".
    Well I did mean the world, I know how Nadella stressed on the fact that continuum will be useful in developing countries and as I said, in its "current" form its not useful. its too limited for someone to invest in the setup, i.e. keyboard, mouse, moniter etc.
    Anyone needing more than browsing and checking emails cant rely on continuum for his computing needs.

    Probably in 2018 it might grow into something more practically useful.
    10-11-2016 12:16 PM
  19. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Well I did mean the world, I know how Nadella stressed on the fact that continuum will be useful in developing countries and as I said, in its "current" form its not useful. its too limited for someone to invest in the setup, i.e. keyboard, mouse, moniter etc.
    Anyone needing more than browsing and checking emails cant rely on continuum for his computing needs.

    Probably in 2018 it might grow into something more practically useful.

    (A) There's very little you can't do on a browser.
    (B) You don't need a separate monitor, an HD TV will suffice.

    Given the state of Windows apps for mobile, a browser accomplishes much more. If your needs require more, you shouldn't be on Windows 10 Mobile in the first place. Andromeda isn't out yet and iOS offers nothing similar so for people who aren't as fortunate as us, Continuum makes sense, no matter how limited you may think it is. Maybe I'm shifting more left of center as I reach AARP eligibility, but not everybody in the world can have what we have. A slice of Grimaldi's beats a large Domino's.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-11-2016 12:48 PM
  20. techiez's Avatar
    (A) There's very little you can't do on a browser.
    (B) You don't need a separate monitor, an HD TV will suffice.

    Given the state of Windows apps for mobile, a browser accomplishes much more. If your needs require more, you shouldn't be on Windows 10 Mobile in the first place. Andromeda isn't out yet and iOS offers nothing similar so for people who aren't as fortunate as us, Continuum makes sense, no matter how limited you may think it is. Maybe I'm shifting more left of center as I reach AARP eligibility, but not everybody in the world can have what we have. A slice of Grimaldi's beats a large Domino's.
    Well those who can afford HDTV can afford a computing device right? My problem with continuum supporters is that ppl mention that this is useful for ppl who cant afford a computing device(Nadella actually pitched continuum this way, but then we talk to connecting it to HDTV etc. contradictions isnt it?

    There's little you cant do on a browser.Yet apps are more popular and demanded despite browser presence. We need skype etc on continuum.

    edit: Adding that I'm on windows 10 mobile because it satisfies my needs, I have the apps I use, but continuum doesnt give me anything additional.

    Also if we are talking affordability, I would pick a compute stick over a continuum based phone.
    10-11-2016 01:05 PM
  21. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Well those who can afford HDTV can afford a computing device right?
    That has to qualify as the most arrogant statement ever. Most, if not all, TVs being offered for sale are HD because that's what sells. I suppose you could go on Craigslist and find a 20" Magnavox with MagnaVision for sale. The seller may even throw in an Atari 2600 to play Pong on it.
    libra89 and Laura Knotek like this.
    10-11-2016 01:14 PM
  22. techiez's Avatar
    That has to qualify as the most arrogant statement ever. Most, if not all, TVs being offered for sale are HD because that's what sells. I suppose you could go on Craigslist and find a 20" Magnavox with MagnaVision for sale. The seller may even throw in an Atari 2600 to play Pong on it.
    Well I'm from asia and this statement stands true here.

    We disagree on usefulness of continuum in its present state, and I would like to see argument of how continuum is more useful than a compute stick.
    10-11-2016 01:33 PM
  23. vEEP pEEP's Avatar
    I don't think WP is a big drain on their budget, but like the Zune, they are just not going to get in there. And it is quite disappointing because they are not noobs. Nokia was a horrible example - dominated and area and totally lost it. Even before MS. Nokia could not come back. But such solid phones.

    But the phone is going to evolve. In fact calling it a phone is wrong, it's an extension of the cloud. Consumers are fickle and they want what everyone else wants, but to remain unique and special. We want new and cutting edge. Business wants what works and is stable.

    I think it is easier to MS to work with businesses than consumers in a dominated market. Xbox will be fine btw.

    With Blackberry gone, MS is ripe to get into that market - the business phone...or should I say, the Business Extension. O365 and decent mobile - you can get a lot done. Now they just need to get that trust factor which is making good hardware, software, customer support and longevity - that they are going to be around.

    Do I hope for consumer WP - absolutely!!!!

    Mr. V
    10-11-2016 01:34 PM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    Wrong as usual, but makes no difference...Dona is the "program chief" and MS focuses the real talent on the profit centers, like its Board directs it to do.
    Seriously, no. I've never met anyone from MS who's business card just read "program chief". I'd be surprised if such a title even exists. It seems you are misrepresenting her actual title to imply that she is somehow responsible for a program or software. She is not.

    Her actual title is "WINDOWS INSIDER program chief". That means she's the lead for a consumer outreach and beta test effort. Nothing more.

    Furthermore, according to you, the real talent at MS works on W10 and Xbox, which puts Dona in the group of less competent employees. However, her responsibilities span all versions of Windows, as the insider program isn't exclusive to W10M, so your point doesn't even make sense on that level.

    Anyway, you're still spreading FUD, please stop.
    10-11-2016 05:54 PM
  25. mikepalma's Avatar
    Yeah, I guess she lied about her title on her twitter account...

    I won't be addressing your poorly researched commentary further. Have a nice day.
    10-11-2016 06:08 PM
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