10-29-2016 04:53 AM
28 12
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  1. pjhenry1216's Avatar
    Tell me if this sounds crazy, but if they would just release a 7 or 8 inch tablet running Windows 10 Mobile, I feel like they'd reach a much broader audience than with only phones. If someone owns an Android, the W10M environment is not yet rich enough to make a compelling argument to give up on the Android mobile experience and go all in on W10M. Unfortunately, with cell phones, that's really what you have to do. Most people own *one* cell phone and they're not going to just jump ship for something that is arguably comparable (some say better, some say worse, but there's at least a decent argument that they're comparable). Though if you had a W10M tablet, especially a range from budget to high-end, I could see a lot more people dipping their toes in. Plus, if you make it a small tablet (again, 7 or 8 inches), that promotes mobility. Suddenly developers will have an audience that is mobile. They'll have incentive to make apps not only for the desktop but for mobile as well. As it stands, you can say there's a huge audience for UWA, but many developers choose just desktop, or desktop and HoloLens. This would definitely help push mobile apps in my opinion. Folks don't have to give up on Android, but now they can have both. And eventually, when Microsoft is ready to push phones on consumers again, they'll have folks primed for W10M and those folks don't even have to give up Android right away either. Just switch out the Android phone for Windows, and maybe get an Android tablet... until they're finally willing to give it up all together (I can dream...).

    Am I just crazy or does this make a compelling argument for a Surface Mini running W10M, *maybe* with pen support (depends on hardware obstacles)
    pedmar007 likes this.
    10-27-2016 08:38 AM
  2. libra89's Avatar
    Not a bad idea but you still need the apps. A lot of people love iPads, even people who have Android phones do too. There would have to be something interesting about it to consider it going up against the iPad.
    jmshub and Guytronic like this.
    10-27-2016 08:43 AM
  3. pjhenry1216's Avatar
    Not a bad idea but you still need the apps. A lot of people love iPads, even people who have Android phones do too. There would have to be something interesting about it to consider it going up against the iPad.
    Personally, I think it'd still appeal to those who don't mind owning both devices. If its cheap enough, you may just get people that will buy it to give it a shot. It doesn't need to be an iPad killer or anything. Obviously, it'd get greater sales if it was, but you're right, without the apps, it really can't be. It just needs to give people the ability to test the waters. Granted, the issue of it not being an iPad killer may be a problem in itself. Panos really likes to do dramatic things. This may not be glamorous enough for him. It likes to redefine the market. This would probably feel too much like a Galaxy Note Tab...

    So I guess the Windows Central app doesn't do replies too well. If this gets posted twice, I apologize.
    libra89 likes this.
    10-27-2016 08:53 AM
  4. EspHack's Avatar
    I already got a 8" tab and it just needs a simcard and wordflow to replace my lumia
    10-28-2016 03:47 AM
  5. pjhenry1216's Avatar
    Is it running windows 10 mobile?
    10-28-2016 03:58 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    If it's in no way glamorous or dramatic, Panay is not the only one who won't be interested. Consumer's won't be either. There absolutely must be at least one very compelling user-facing feature for the masses to get excited over. Otherwise nobody will care and just stick with their iOS and Android based tablets. We're long past the point where "being comparable" will cut it. That ship has sailed. MS must innovate. Provide something unique and desirable. Basically, go big or go home.

    In the mobile space, WP7 represents the last time MS really innovated. Since then "being comparable" is all they strived for. That's what got MS into the muck to begin with.
    Guytronic, libra89, tgp and 2 others like this.
    10-28-2016 05:01 AM
  7. pjhenry1216's Avatar
    Clearly you have a low opinion of w10m. If you think wp7 was a lot better, I doubt we'll find common ground. There's enough in w10m to make it an attractive option. The barrier to entry is too high though. There is enough that people would be willing to give it a shot, but only if they didn't lose what they already have. I can easily see a consumer go android for phone and w10m for tablet, especially with continuum. W10M doesn't have to redefine the market just to get people to try it. It just needs fewer strings attached.

    My argument is mainly don't sell the tablet as a replacement for anything, simply as a companion piece. It'll male a better pc replacement than an android or chromeOS system so can already appeal to those markets.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-28-2016 at 07:04 AM. Reason: merged two sequential posts
    10-28-2016 06:01 AM
  8. Pynchmail's Avatar
    This will be something I would buy. Need not be from Microsoft either. Even a 10 to 12 inch W10M tablet is interesting. It will be cheaper than W10 tablet or 2 in 1 and requires lower specs to run well.
    10-28-2016 06:53 AM
  9. a5cent's Avatar
    Clearly you have a low opinion of w10m. If you think wp7 was a lot better, I doubt we'll find common ground.
    You've misunderstood my post.

    Nowhere did I say I think WP7 is better (although in some specific and limited ways it is, i.e. software efficiency and UI consistency). While it is true that I have a low opinion of W10M, that's irrelevant here and has absolutely nothing to do with my point. Everything I mentioned I've been saying for the last three years, long before W10M was on anybody's mind.

    My argument is mainly don't sell the tablet as a replacement for anything, simply as a companion piece. It'll male a better pc replacement than an android or chromeOS system so can already appeal to those markets.
    Your argument is that a W10M tablet would not be a replacement for anything, in other words, it's not a better iOS or Android tablet, nor is it a better phone, nor is it a ultra-mobile laptop/desktop replacement. The thing is, at some point you will have to get beyond telling us what it isn't and explain to people what it actually is! Giving people another option just for the sake of having options will get us nowhere. At some point the device will have to stand out in some way or go under.

    Furthermore, even if MS explicitly positioned it as NOT being a tablet or chombook competitor, e.g. as an independent companion device, the tech media and consumers will still compare it to whatever it looks most similar to. I know that's not very sophisticated, but it's how people work. If such a tablet doesn't have any signature capabilities that let people discuss it as something other than a run-of-the-mill computing device with apps, it will still be viewed as an iOS or Android tablet without the apps or a Windows Chromebook that can't run any Windows software (similar to the problem Windows RT had).

    Nah. MS must launch devices with a clearly defined purpose and features perfectly catered to that purpose. That's what's driven every one of MS' successful product launches. The new Surface Studio also fits that mold. WP is a great demonstration of what happens with a product that is just another me-too effort without any easy to grasp and highly marketable stand-out features behind it. That's not to say WP wasn't the best at some things. It was. It just wasn't the best at things that were highly desirable, easy to grasp and easily marketed. That's not enough.

    Without such stand-out consumer-facing features, there is simply no reason for anyone to leave the comfortable and familiar iOS/Android waters. That is the hurdle MS must get people to jump over. That is the real barrier to entry now. Once people are used to something, getting them to change to something different is a huge effort. That's why just being "good enough" or "comparable" won't cut it. Even being just a little bit better without offering something entirely new and compelling won't cut it. Like I said, that ship has sailed...
    10-28-2016 07:51 AM
  10. tgp's Avatar
    I can easily see a consumer go android for phone and w10m for tablet, especially with continuum. W10M doesn't have to redefine the market just to get people to try it. It just needs fewer strings attached.
    This will be something I would buy. Need not be from Microsoft either. Even a 10 to 12 inch W10M tablet is interesting. It will be cheaper than W10 tablet or 2 in 1 and requires lower specs to run well.
    I don't follow the logic of a W10M tablet. What are WM's weaknesses presently? A buggy OS and a weak ecosystem are probably the two biggest complaints. How is putting the OS on a tablet going to change that? What will it have over an iPad or Android tablet? The only advantage I can think of is Continuum, but it will be awhile before it is capable enough to even be a consideration for most people. And, Continuum doesn't magically create apps.

    Now a tablet with full W10, I can see that. But W10M???
    10-28-2016 08:35 AM
  11. pjhenry1216's Avatar
    You've misunderstood my post.

    Nowhere did I say I think WP7 is better (although in some specific and limited ways it is, i.e. software efficiency and UI consistency). While it is true that I have a low opinion of W10M, that's irrelevant here and has absolutely nothing to do with my point. Everything I mentioned I've been saying for the last three years, long before W10M was on anybody's mind.



    Your argument is that a W10M tablet would not be a replacement for anything, in other words, it's not a better iOS or Android tablet, nor is it a better phone, nor is it a ultra-mobile laptop/desktop replacement. The thing is, at some point you will have to get beyond telling us what it isn't and explain to people what it actually is! Giving people another option just for the sake of having options will get us nowhere. At some point the device will have to stand out in some way or go under.

    Furthermore, even if MS explicitly positioned it as NOT being a tablet or chombook competitor, e.g. as an independent companion device, the tech media and consumers will still compare it to whatever it looks most similar to. I know that's not very sophisticated, but it's how people work. If such a tablet doesn't have any signature capabilities that let people discuss it as something other than a run-of-the-mill computing device with apps, it will still be viewed as an iOS or Android tablet without the apps or a Windows Chromebook that can't run any Windows software (similar to the problem Windows RT had).

    Nah. MS must launch devices with a clearly defined purpose and features perfectly catered to that purpose. That's what's driven every one of MS' successful product launches. The new Surface Studio also fits that mold. WP is a great demonstration of what happens with a product that is just another me-too effort without any easy to grasp and highly marketable stand-out features behind it. That's not to say WP wasn't the best at some things. It was. It just wasn't the best at things that were highly desirable, easy to grasp and easily marketed. That's not enough.

    Without such stand-out consumer-facing features, there is simply no reason for anyone to leave the comfortable and familiar iOS/Android waters. That is the hurdle MS must get people to jump over. That is the real barrier to entry now. Once people are used to something, getting them to change to something different is a huge effort. That's why just being "good enough" or "comparable" won't cut it. Even being just a little bit better without offering something entirely new and compelling won't cut it. Like I said, that ship has sailed...
    I said what it would be (you literally quoted it too), at least at first. It'd be a companion piece. The weaker app store will only be fixed by getting more apps (obviously). Developers will only make more apps when there is a larger audience. There will be a larger audience once there is a stronger app store. You see the problem. There's really only one way to get people to invest into W10M (assuming they're not a fan and already in it) without making a stronger app store. That being there needs to be a lower barrier to entry. Right now dropping your current phone for a windows phone is too much for a large percentage of the population. Solution? *Don't ask them to drop their phone!* Pick up a tablet. Maybe as novelty, maybe for Continuum. Because hey, you can now utilize Continuum without needing to completely switch your mobile OS environment. You won't have to drop your Android phone or iPhone. Keeping it real small at 7" or at most 8" keeps it portable. That way you get the mobile apps that are useless on a PC or useless on a 10"-12" tablet because no one is going to be bringing them everywhere like they do with their phone.

    Other than the monetary investment, there's nothing lost to the consumer. Right now, if they want to try out Windows 10 Mobile, they *have* to drop their current phone. And again, that's obviously not happening. If we want people to start using it, we need to make it as easy as possible.
    10-28-2016 11:12 AM
  12. pjhenry1216's Avatar
    I don't follow the logic of a W10M tablet. What are WM's weaknesses presently? A buggy OS and a weak ecosystem are probably the two biggest complaints. How is putting the OS on a tablet going to change that? What will it have over an iPad or Android tablet? The only advantage I can think of is Continuum, but it will be awhile before it is capable enough to even be a consideration for most people. And, Continuum doesn't magically create apps.

    Now a tablet with full W10, I can see that. But W10M???
    You won't create apps without an audience. You won't get an audience if they need to entirely switch their mobile environment. This lets them keep their current environment and try out Windows 10 Mobile and Continuum. Right now, its too much to ask them to try W10M. However, if you have a budget tablet with Continuum, people will be more likely to purchase it as opposed to a W10M phone.

    W10M's biggest problem is lack of a user base. If it had a larger user base, that would eventually solve all the other problems. And Continuum is fairly capable with any UWP app.
    10-28-2016 11:17 AM
  13. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    You won't create apps without an audience. You won't get an audience if they need to entirely switch their mobile environment. This lets them keep their current environment and try out Windows 10 Mobile and Continuum. Right now, its too much to ask them to try W10M. However, if you have a budget tablet with Continuum, people will be more likely to purchase it as opposed to a W10M phone.

    W10M's biggest problem is lack of a user base. If it had a larger user base, that would eventually solve all the other problems. And Continuum is fairly capable with any UWP app.
    What advantages would this be over an Android tablet?
    10-28-2016 11:39 AM
  14. Mad Cabbie's Avatar
    Sorry Bud, I can't see this having any effect on W10M or helping it gain any traction. W10M needs a lot more than a tablet. You can easily buy a small 8 inch Tab running full Windows 10 for around 50 - 60 in the UK. Even they are a pig to use as invariably they come with the Atom, 1GB and 32GB storage, which doesn't really make for a pleasant experience.

    W10M is going no where in the next few months etc. And this wont have a chance of helping.
    libra89, Guytronic, a5cent and 2 others like this.
    10-28-2016 01:24 PM
  15. Guytronic's Avatar
    The old WP on the Surface RT idea was kicked around on this forum quite a while ago.
    I would have really enjoyed seeing that happen.

    With the 2in1 devices available now I'm not seeing any advantage using a WM10 tablet.
    Wouldn't it just be another design split for an OS that's already being dragged along?
    Also so many users aren't in love with onscreen keyboards.

    As a person who's given up on tablets for phones I would be inclined to pass on something such as this.

    Apologies to the OP for being another downer.
    10-28-2016 02:10 PM
  16. a5cent's Avatar
    There's really only one way to get people to invest into W10M (assuming they're not a fan and already in it) without making a stronger app store. That being there needs to be a lower barrier to entry. Right now dropping your current phone for a windows phone is too much for a large percentage of the population. Solution? *Don't ask them to drop their phone!* Pick up a tablet. Maybe as novelty, maybe for Continuum. Because hey, you can now utilize Continuum without needing to completely switch your mobile OS environment. You won't have to drop your Android phone or iPhone.
    I think our disagreement boils down to the term "barrier to entry". You've put that at the center of your argument. I agree that such barriers exist, but in my view the far bigger problem is that MS hasn't given people any reasons to cross that barrier. It's a barrier in theory only, because too few people are interested in what lies on the other side.

    You think MS' primary goal must be to lower those barriers. In contrast to that, I think MS has little control over many of those barriers and can't do a tremendous amount to lower them. As a result, I think MS must rather focus on getting people to want to get to the other side despite the barriers.

    We agree that introducing a W10M tablet will make it possible for people to purchase a W10M device without them having to sacrifice their iOS and Android smartphones. That's fine. We just disagree that a useful number of people will care. Given that people can also choose to purchase an iOS or Android tablet, what reason would they have to purchase the W10M alternative? You haven't provided any reasons beyond "because they can" and "so that they can check W10M out for themselves". That will convince few. The overwhelming majority will stick with the ecosystems they have already invested money into for hardware and software purchases and which they are familiar with. In my view you could rip down all the barriers and people still wouldn't want to purchase the W10M device. MS must give people a compelling reason to cross to the other side. Just removing the barrier will not make people cross.
    Last edited by a5cent; 10-28-2016 at 04:04 PM. Reason: spelling
    10-28-2016 03:43 PM
  17. pjhenry1216's Avatar
    I think our disagreement boils down to the term "barrier to entry". You've put that at the center of your argument. I agree that such barriers exist, but in my view the far bigger problem is that MS hasn't given people any reasons to cross that barrier. It's a barrier in theory only, because too few people are interested in what lies on the other side.

    You think MS' primary goal must be to lower those barriers. In contrast to that, I think MS has little control over many of those barriers and can't do a tremendous amount to lower them. As a result, I think MS must rather focus on getting people to want to get to the other side despite the barriers.

    We agree that introducing a W10M tablet will make it possible for people get a W10M device without them having to sacrifice their iOS and Android smartphones. That's fine. We just disagree that a useful number of people will care about that. Given that people can also chose to purchase an iOS or Android tablet, what reason would they have to purchase the W10M alternative? You haven't provided any reasons beyond "because they can" and "so that they can check W10M out for themselves". That will convince few. The overwhelming majority will stick with the ecosystems they have already invested money into for hardware and software purchases and which they are familiar with. In my view you could rip down all the barriers and people still wouldn't want to purchase the W10M device. MS must give people a compelling reason to cross to the other side. Just removing the barrier will not make people cross.
    With the devices they've been releasing in their Surface line and where Windows 10 is going, I can see people having at least some interest. I'm not saying that making this tablet will remove it, only make the barrier lower. If you have an Android phone, you could also get an Android tablet, but you may decide to try out new technologies. Maybe this only appeals to folks who want to try things out as opposed to getting the every day person. I personally think W10M *does* offer a reason for people to try it out, it simply involves giving up too much to do so. Honestly, that's why I pointed out our disagreements in the first place. We disagree on a core principle about the OS. You think the OS isn't worth trying out, I think it is. There's no point on arguing about anything else because we disagree on that. That's why it was relevant in the first place.
    10-28-2016 04:03 PM
  18. a5cent's Avatar
    We disagree on a core principle about the OS. You think the OS isn't worth trying out, I think it is.
    Not really. I personally do think it's worth trying out. I do that myself every now and then. It's just that there is no chance whatsoever that a large enough group of people will agree with that assessment.

    Maybe this only appeals to folks who want to try things out as opposed to getting the every day person.
    Exactly. That is why your suggestion isn't a useful solution. It can't appeal to a large enough group for it to matter, i.e. even the best possible scenario won't get us past the 4% mark, which is where WP resided during its "hey day". That isn't enough. A solution that targets only the type of people that roam these forums isn't enough.
    10-28-2016 04:12 PM
  19. pjhenry1216's Avatar
    Not really. I personally do think it's worth trying out. I do that myself every now and then. It's just that there is no chance whatsoever that a large enough group of people will agree with that assessment.



    Exactly. That is why your suggestion isn't a useful solution. It can't appeal to a large enough group for it to matter, i.e. even the best possible scenario won't get us past the 4% mark, which is where WP resided during its "hey day". That isn't enough. A solution that targets only the type of people that roam these forums isn't enough.
    I personally disagree. I think it could reach a larger audience. I'm not saying it'll save the day, but it'll grow a bit and that could attract some developers. It doesn't even have to grow *that* much larger. Android and iOS app stores are difficult markets to break into. There's currently less competition on the Windows Store front, particularly with mobile. I honestly don't think it needs to hit too high of a percentage anyway to attract developers. Just keep in mind how large of an audience 4% even is. Add on top of that cross-platform tools and it's not a bad proposition for a developer. I think the operating system is attractive enough to get a decent amount of people to try it.

    Again, I'm not trying to say this will single handedly save the platform. I just think it'll help the numbers grow enough to make it a more attractive ecosystem for developers. Even just tech folks would be willing to try it out and that's a significant demographic.

    Personally, I don't think I'm going to persuade you and you're not going to persuade me. I think its an impressive enough OS and without tying it to a phone, more people will try it. People are more likely to have multiple non-phone devices as opposed to multiple phones. I think there's enough there that it will get folks choosing it over another tablet. Have it come with $25 Windows Store gift card even. Then developers will know there will be some money coming in as well. Not sure if MS can or should force it to be used on on mobile-capable apps, but that would be a different discussion.
    10-28-2016 04:37 PM
  20. Pynchmail's Avatar
    With the 2in1 devices available now I'm not seeing any advantage using a WM10 tablet.
    Wouldn't it just be another design split for an OS that's already being dragged along?
    Also so many users aren't in love with onscreen keyboards.
    I agree that any new products must have distinct benefits over existing products before people will buy them. This is no difference from new Android tablets must have features that existing Android tablet don't so that people will be attracted to try them. Putting W10M onto tablet form without any other attractions is certainly not going to work. No one will be interested. What I am envisaging is that the W10M tablet will incorporate features that cannot be found on Android or IOS. Some examples would be:

    1) Better battery life than W10 tablet because of lower power requirement of ARM processors.
    2) Lower price than W10 tablet because ARM processors are cheaper than x86 or x64 processors, especially so when Atom is being discontinued.
    3) Lighter and thinner because that is no need for built in fan and lower hardware requirements to run W10M compared to W10.
    4) Better security than typical Android tablet (not comparing to Samsung Knox but to typical low end Android)
    5) After Galaxy Note/Tab 12.2 got discontinued, there is in fact no more 12 inch tablet being produced. A W10M 12 incher can fill the void.
    6) Compared to iOS, W10M is more compatible to W10 on our laptop and desktop as files can be easily shared by drag and drop. iOS does not support SD cards but W10M does. iOS does not work too well with non Apple devices and works mostly only via iTune.
    7) iOS tablets are also very high end and certainly not cheap.
    8) With Continuum, W10M tablet can have full keyboard and mouse support. Both Android and iOS don't support mouse.
    9) Develop Notes and Paint apps that provide pen support on W10M. Other than the very high end and thus expensive iPad Pro, there are no existing new Android tablets that provide pen support (except the now discontinued Galaxy Notes tablets)

    I think there are opportunities for W10M tablet, not as is, but with features such as better battery life, Continuum, pen support, SD card support, lighter and thinner, better files integration with PC compared to iOS, lower cost, etc.

    I use a Surface Pro 3 daily. 99% of the time, I am just surfing the net, watching video, reading news and emails. All these can be done on W10M. The last 1% is when I open my full Office suite to look at some work and edit some documents. Most people I know use their tablet mostly for games, web surfing and media consumptions. A nicely build W10M tablet can do all of these. Some peole will value better battery life, SD card support, PC file sharing, keyboard and mouse support, and price over lack of apps on a tablet.
    10-28-2016 08:14 PM
  21. Guytronic's Avatar
    We have a DV8P that updated to W10 and barely use it.
    The wife uses it for solitaire and a few other games.

    I just don't believe a tablet in any form will sell very well.
    The Surface RT may have been aimed at a mobile audience and it failed with resonance.
    Fortunately Microsoft is smart enough to never dip a toe there again in my opinion.
    Last edited by Guytronic; 10-28-2016 at 09:24 PM.
    10-28-2016 08:24 PM
  22. Pynchmail's Avatar
    I just don't believe a tablet in any form will sell very well.
    The Surface RT may have been aimed at a mobile audience and it failed with resonance.
    Surface RT unfortunately was aimed as a Windows desktop replacement just like the Surface Pro. It got very bad press when people realized that it cannot run legacy x86 programs. It came with "Full Microsoft Office 2013" that is actually different from x86 Office 2013, and people didn't know until later. It was a good product with poor marketing and confusing advertising.
    10-28-2016 09:30 PM
  23. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Some people will value better battery life, SD card support, PC file sharing, keyboard and mouse support, and price over lack of apps on a tablet.
    PC file sharing is possible on Android using Total Commander. There are add ons that enable FTP and LAN (Windows share).
    a5cent, Guytronic, libra89 and 1 others like this.
    10-28-2016 10:00 PM
  24. Visa Declined's Avatar
    With regards to a medium or smallish tablet running Windows and selling well, it's not going to happen. Tablets of that size need a store full of popular touch-based apps, and the Windows store doesn't have those.

    Both Android and iOS don't support mouse.
    This gets posted here frequently, and it's only half true. Android has supported keyboard/mouse via USB and Bluetooth for years. I can hardly remember at time when USB OTG wasn't available. I've been able to plug a wired Xbox controller into almost every Android phone I've owned, and there are tons of games that support it.
    tgp, Guytronic, a5cent and 2 others like this.
    10-28-2016 10:46 PM
  25. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    With regards to a medium or smallish tablet running Windows and selling well, it's not going to happen. Tablets of that size need a store full of popular touch-based apps, and the Windows store doesn't have those.



    This gets posted here frequently, and it's only half true. Android has supported keyboard/mouse via USB and Bluetooth for years. I can hardly remember at time when USB OTG wasn't available. I've been able to plug a wired Xbox controller into almost every Android phone I've owned, and there are tons of games that support it.
    That is correct. I have a keyboard made by Microsoft that is compatible with my Android devices.
    Guytronic, a5cent, libra89 and 1 others like this.
    10-28-2016 10:56 PM
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