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09-25-2017 07:54 PM
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  1. EspHack's Avatar
    Can't see Intel going for this. Intel x86 play second fiddle to an ARM processor in the same device, not going to happen. A matter of pride surely.
    that's a subjective matter, how about: hah! poor average ARM peasants need intel's x86 help to run REAL APPZZZ"

    lol not trying to start a flame war, but we can look at it that way, and if it can be done that'd be a huge step in computing, exactly what the "ultimate mobile device" sounds like to me, at least hardware-wise

    but even then, that wouldn't be enough, app gap still a problem, and I believe nadella plans to get rid of that problem for good with his bots master plan before going ahead with the ultimate thing, like, just make every service-app to be software/hardware agnostic, like any decent IT person would do, make your server run all needed/possible code, leave clients to be a simple GUI, so when your boss tells you he wants java app instead of whatever language was used before, you simply make a java GUI, no need to reinvent the wheel(rewrite the code)
    11-24-2016 05:25 PM
  2. Kimmo Toivanen's Avatar
    Eltechs seems to have had similar technology for a few years (https://eltechs.com/product/eltechs-engine/).

    I have never heard of it before. I don't know if it is used anywhere by anyone. But combined with W10M and Continuum (or maybe MS has some project of their own) I guess it could run some Windows programs that do not expect too much from the hardware.

    x86 CPUs are designed with CISC (complex instruction set)
    x86s aren't what they used to be ;) Instruction set is CISC (with some signal processing additions) but maybe internals of modern x86 cores are not too far from RISC cores.
    Rosebank likes this.
    11-25-2016 06:09 AM
  3. Rosebank's Avatar
    I guess it could run some Windows programs that do not expect too much from the hardware.
    This is similar to what I had in mind and what I detailed in my first few posts, then from there things could be expanded in development.
    11-25-2016 09:54 AM
  4. speccy's Avatar
    I can't see how this benefits consumers much if at all, there is limited appeal for business (which is Microsoft's target), but I think HP's approach is fine for this. What x86 apps would one run on their phone anyway? x86 apps generally by their very nature are designed for the desktop. A bit of an oversimplification I realise, but having this when Win10 was released may have been useful, but not having it for another year or more... it'll be pretty much irrelevant by the time it's ready, and the next big thing will hopefully be on it's way by then. That's the wave that Microsoft needs to be on. This is of course my own opinion based on very little actual knowledge or experience, so for those cleverer than me, don't be too hard on me
    Rosebank and Pynchmail like this.
    11-25-2016 10:52 AM
  5. Rosebank's Avatar
    Autocad or Photoshop under emulation lol
    11-25-2016 12:02 PM
  6. BackToTheFuture's Avatar
    Eltechs seems to have had similar technology for a few years (https://eltechs.com/product/eltechs-engine/).
    I don't think they provide an emulator, but a middleware to wrap API calls. That works for game because they mostly call standard C and OpenGL/DirectX functions. Then recompile the code with this middleware for mobile, sort of like the UWP bridge to port iOS code. They do not translate x86 binary code to ARM binary code, that's insane.

    x86s aren't what they used to be ;) Instruction set is CISC (with some signal processing additions) but maybe internals of modern x86 cores are not too far from RISC cores.
    I think it's the other way, RISC CPUs are getting more complex.
    a5cent and EspHack like this.
    11-25-2016 03:31 PM
  7. xandros9's Avatar
    Autocad or Photoshop under emulation lol
    giphy-facebook_s.jpg
    a5cent, Rosebank, mkKozak and 1 others like this.
    11-25-2016 10:45 PM
  8. mkKozak's Avatar
    There are hybrid x86-ARM CPUs.
    But the problem is not in making a technology, but making money out of it.

    I can't find links to them, but I remember AMDs project "Skybridge" that is dead now and I've seen some more projects, but can't remember the names.
    a5cent and Rosebank like this.
    11-26-2016 02:14 AM
  9. Rosebank's Avatar
    I think if the development went with continuum then it could possibly be more of a possibility, phone screen off, 1 file running under emulation, keeping the phone temperature down,power supply and of course if they manage to solve this emulation then a full screen could be used, notepad for example would not interest me but paint.exe would, some other programs like the chess program I mentioned I could use, something I just though of, perhaps the dock itself could be a dedicated emulator or contain x86 instruction capability combined with the phone innards ??
    edit>> The more I spend time thinking about this the more I think it might be a silly idea, I will also contradict everything I wrote above, I think that unless the phone can run the x86 somehow standalone,? then its a waste of time, what would WOW us is this feature (if it worked well enough)If you need the dock and the big screen then chances are you are at home or the office, where you have your laptop or PC there anyway, we all want BANG for our BUCK and having a powerful phone sized device would be amazing running x86 within reason, sometimes you don't want to carry your laptop around but you always have your phone on your person (well I do anyway) if I could run some x86 files I would be happy and also understand that AutoCAD or the like would likely never ever run on a phone, that's obvious, however if a powerful enough device could run x86 and was no bigger that a Galaxy note sized device with W10M I would be seriously interested. I like windows10 Mobile and its an exciting future ahead.
    Last edited by Rosebank; 11-26-2016 at 09:51 AM.
    11-26-2016 03:22 AM
  10. BackToTheFuture's Avatar
    There are hybrid x86-ARM CPUs.
    But the problem is not in making a technology, but making money out of it.

    I can't find links to them, but I remember AMDs project "Skybridge" that is dead now and I've seen some more projects, but can't remember the names.
    It was hot topic back in 2014 I think, both AMD & VIA announced their hybrid CPU projects, seem abandoned now. There are a few problems with this approach:
    - The CPU die would be rather big.
    - Software (specifically OS) must be able to handle two ISAs.
    So then, why not use low-powered x86 CPU like Atom? It certainly draws more power than ARM, but its usage can be restricted to big phones with big batteries and avoid all the headache?
    a5cent, Laura Knotek and EspHack like this.
    11-26-2016 11:44 AM
  11. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ Exactly what I think. The whole idea of emulating x86 on ARM makes little sense, because there are just simpler/more efficient ways to solve that problem. Either MJF is wrong, or (more likely) we're missing some important part of the puzzle. I just can't imagine what that might be.
    Rosebank, Laura Knotek and EspHack like this.
    11-26-2016 03:54 PM
  12. EspHack's Avatar
    I'm all for big phones, I've watched an anime where in a not-so-distant futuristic setting everyone just carries around a 7-8" tablet-phone that's essentially the end all of general computing, I think that's the next step until HoloLens gets perfected

    they just have so many pros, devices in that size have amazing battery life, specially in heavy use, they multitask like a boss for such a compact thing

    here's my almost-dailydriver asus vivotab 8 https://1drv.ms/v/s!AtnMR9kRrYq05uRV6YQNJDTyYIumEA

    only things it needs to replace my phone: real cameras, gsm modem, wordflow keyboard(seriously? microsoft?) and if we can be picky, glance and ddtw
    Rosebank likes this.
    11-26-2016 06:39 PM
  13. Rosebank's Avatar
    Sorry but for me that too big as a daily driver, its a tablet, won't fit in my trouser pocket like my phone does without looking obvious,I also have my phone protected inside a sleeve, the size increase probably means more power and productivity but just too big to carry around all day, it might fit in a jacket pocket but then you must carry a jacket around on days you might not want to.
    TgeekB likes this.
    11-27-2016 04:19 AM
  14. EspHack's Avatar
    Sorry but for me that too big as a daily driver, its a tablet, won't fit in my trouser pocket like my phone does without looking obvious,I also have my phone protected inside a sleeve, the size increase probably means more power and productivity but just too big to carry around all day, it might fit in a jacket pocket but then you must carry a jacket around on days you might not want to.
    nobody has detected my ridiculous "phone" yet, they just get the WTF look when I pull it out :P

    honestly what bothers me the most is also having to carry my phone for the wifi hotspot, that means losing both front pockets
    Rosebank likes this.
    11-27-2016 12:59 PM
  15. Rosebank's Avatar
    This is going to sound quite extreme here, and waaaay off topic, worth sharing though, I would be careful having the phone in your front pocket with the wifi and cellular data being used next to your private parts, No joke, my old boss lost both his nuts and he thinks it was because he had a phone in each pocket, I don't normally over react to these type of radiation threats but his case convinced me otherwise. I keep data off always until I need it and well clear of my privates, :-)
    11-27-2016 01:18 PM
  16. EspHack's Avatar
    This is going to sound quite extreme here, and waaaay off topic, worth sharing though, I would be careful having the phone in your front pocket with the wifi and cellular data being used next to your private parts, No joke, my old boss lost both his nuts and he thinks it was because he had a phone in each pocket, I don't normally over react to these type of radiation threats but his case convinced me otherwise. I keep data off always until I need it and well clear of my privates, :-)
    it would save me quite a bit of money I would otherwise invest in "protection" so I'm looking forward to it, though at this point I think anyone browsing this forum has pretty much developed immunity to RFs or has been born with it, like most kids today, otherwise we are doomed, won't be too long till you see carriers installing cell antennas inside your home for those shiny new 5g ultra high frequency bands
    Rosebank likes this.
    11-27-2016 08:37 PM
  17. Rosebank's Avatar
    TBH I am not sure this technology will even roll out? I have been digging deeper into this and read the original reports from a twitter source, I am trying to contact that person for more information but I doubt there is anymore to disclose, I wont be buying any other device (I have L950) until late next year or slightly longer, I need 1 more year from this device then I will see what's available, I will never consider an X3 as a DD even when the cost comes down as it is too similar to the L950xl in many respects, better in some and worse in others, I am holding out for RS3 or some new hybrid device, I hope to find out more about this leaked information but I doubt I will,,
    11-28-2016 05:17 AM
  18. Joe920's Avatar
    x86 with Continuum would be nice, I know its not going to happen
    HA! You were totally wrong!!!

    ... but also right in the OP ;)
    Rosebank likes this.
    11-28-2016 11:01 AM
  19. Rosebank's Avatar
    Its a really funny/odd/intriguing bit of information Joe920, its exciting yet it seems highly unlikely, its controversial yet a lovely idea (if it worked), its all pipe dream or is it?? I do think these modern phones can give more than they currently do, Because I mentioned an 8 core phone with 3GB Ram in my OP I was by no means comparing that to an 8 core x86 chip, That assumption seems to have been made for me and is ridiculous it was not what I wrote, i would never in a million years compare an 8 core phone cpu with an 8 core x86 cpu (i own 2 i7 and 2 i5 Lenovo's), however i have compared modern phone cpu power with single core x86 cpu's, Very interesting.
    11-28-2016 11:17 AM
  20. a5cent's Avatar
    Its a really funny/odd/intriguing bit of information Joe920, its exciting yet it seems highly unlikely, its controversial yet a lovely idea (if it worked), its all pipe dream or is it?? I do think these modern phones can give more than they currently do, Because I mentioned an 8 core phone with 3GB Ram in my OP I was by no means comparing that to an 8 core x86 chip, That assumption seems to have been made for me and is ridiculous it was not what I wrote, i would never in a million years compare an 8 core phone cpu with an 8 core x86 cpu (i own 2 i7 and 2 i5 Lenovo's), however i have compared modern phone cpu power with single core x86 cpu's, Very interesting.
    No. That comparison was never made. You just still don't get it. To your mind "core count" still represents a measure of performance. That is the only thing that is ridiculous.

    For almost all mobile apps (with low thread counts), a dual core Intel x86 i3 CPU (Non U SKU) will deliver a level of performance that is leaps and bounds above any 8 core mobile CPU you might want to compare it with. That, and the fact that core count (even if both CPUs being compared could run a specific mobile app equally fast) couldn't tell us anything about the performance we can expect from an emulated solution, still aren't getting through to you.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-28-2016 at 05:30 PM. Reason: spelling
    11-28-2016 12:36 PM
  21. Rosebank's Avatar
    Expecting an ARM CPU to run x86 software as well as a x86 CPU just because they have the same amount of cores is ridiculous.
    11-28-2016 12:42 PM
  22. a5cent's Avatar
    Surely with the power capability of an 8 core phone with 3bg ram a x86 exe file Emulator would be a success and allow us to run limited .exe files on your phones,
    Expecting an ARM CPU to run x86 software as well as a x86 CPU just because they have the same amount of cores is ridiculous.
    And again, for the third time, the larger point of my comment, was to clarify that core count can't be used as a metric to make comparative performance judgements of unrelated CPU architectures. By saying "Surely with the power capability of an 8 core phone with 3bg ram an x86 exe file emulator would be a success" you implied that core count tells us something about how well an ARM CPU could be expected to emulate an x86 chip. It doesn't.

    I didn't think you were comparing an 8 core phone with 3GB RAM to an 8 core x86 chip, but I do think core count shaped your opinion of what you were expecting in terms of performance. In this case that can't be done! With the sentence you quoted I was just trying to cover all bases, because I can't know where your thought process is going wrong.
    Last edited by a5cent; 11-28-2016 at 06:22 PM. Reason: spelling
    11-28-2016 05:47 PM
  23. Rosebank's Avatar
    Well we will have to agree to disagree here, I see you are a Moderator and I better watch my step, as for core count have you considered what an 8 core phone can do and an intel atom of 2014 cant, and vice versa, Intel Atom Z3580 vs Qualcomm Snapdragon 810 MSM8994 - System on a Chip Compariso..., this link is as a mild example, each chip has Pros and Cons, I do think this 810 8 core cpu or above could handle x86 emulation.
    Have you factored all the things an ARM 810 can do compared to this atom cpu? the Atom would need to address all the things the 810 does and the 810 would need to run a heavy (guess) load to emulate x86, so I think in terms of cpu comparison we have a stalemate scenario at least with these 2 chips, each side can be argued either way, the Atom is x86 but the ARM handles all things Communication and Camera support etc, not to mention handling the screen at 2k output etc and Graphics, ... This comparison is not ideal but, I was trying to convey that the 8 core phone cpu should not be underestimated.
    edit>> of course I could pick an older x86-CPU comparison to the 810, that "older" x86-cpu having less ability or performance than the Atom Mentioned above, My opinion is that 810 or above could be used to try to emulate x86.
    Last edited by Rosebank; 11-28-2016 at 06:21 PM.
    11-28-2016 06:10 PM
  24. a5cent's Avatar
    Well we will have to agree to disagree here, as for core count have you considered what an 8 core phone can do and an intel atom of 2014 cant, and vice versa, Intel Atom Z3580 vs Qualcomm Snapdragon 810 MSM8994 - System on a Chip Compariso..., this link is as a mild example, each chip has Pros and Cons, I do think this 810 8 core cpu or above could handle x86 emulation.
    I'm a software engineer. You are free to disagree, but as long as you continue to view core count as an indicator of how well x86 emulation will perform, you will be wrong. There is little to no relationship between the two.

    As I've said a few times already, it seems you can't get past the hardware specs, which are far less relevant to emulation performance than the overhead caused by software based ISA translation.

    I see you are a Moderator and I better watch my step,
    Nah, you will never be banned for disagreeing with someone. Moderator or not.
    Rosebank and xandros9 like this.
    11-28-2016 06:20 PM
  25. Rosebank's Avatar
    There will always be a relationship between core count and performance, seems to me the more cores the higher the performance and as we move forward I have not seen a core reduction but only a core increase as Technology advances, your a software engineer, are you pulling rank on me?? :-)
    Glad we can have these types of Debate but I do feel we have crossed wires amongst out replies,
    11-28-2016 06:34 PM
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