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09-25-2017 07:54 PM
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  1. TgeekB's Avatar
    Its an interesting article and thought provoking, what crossed my mind was whether MS simply cant get the form factor small enough (like a mobile phone) so they are calling it a mobile computer which would be slightly bigger, also the app issue was touched upon and the usefulness of win32 programs on a small screen,
    It kinda odd the whole thing has gone quiet (except this new report) and the Emulation and its ability still remains an unknown as such. :-)
    I don't pretend to have the knowledge to understand all this, but I do kind of get what they're attempting to do and find it interesting. What it will look like in the end is still a mystery. I believe it will still have basic "mobile phone" function but also be able to dock and do more powerful PC things which would make you be able to carry around your complete set of work/files/music/etc anywhere you go. IDK, I'm happy enough with my current setup to hang around and see how it turns out.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-21-2017 04:48 PM
  2. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Has anybody here ever used Remote Desktop? If you have, you know what x86 on a 5" screen looks like. Windows on ARM sounds fantastic but unless they find a way to scale the UI properly, it’s really a waste for anything under 8" and there are some decent tablets running Windows 10 right now in that size. Telephony? Who here wants to hold a Venue 8 to their head to make a phone call?

    I say they push the dogcrap out of Continuum and put LTE data connectivity in all small tablets. If you MUST make a phone call, use Viber, Skype or Whatsapp.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Laura Knotek and Rosebank like this.
    02-21-2017 05:14 PM
  3. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    I don't understand.

    It seems as if you're saying it would be better to push Continuum on Windows 10 Mobile and skip Windows on ARM because nobody wants to run windows desktop apps on a 5" screen, but that's just a false dichotomy. If we're willing to use a W10M phone using continuum it stands to reason we're using the phone with a larger screen + keyboard / mouse. Ok, so at that point, at the point you're using the Continuum that was "pushed the dogcrap out of" with a large screen, keyboard and mouse, you've just made exactly the case for Windows 10 ("full") on a phone anyway!

    Because again, as has been pointed out repeatedly, once you're carrying what is effectively a Windows PC in your palm, with a 5" screen, why would you NOT want to be able to run those larger apps when connected to the very same devices you'd connect to using Continuum???

    I just think people continuously fail to understand that a Windows 10 running on ARM would give us all the options currently available as far as form factors are concerned. We're NOT limited to full W10 software on a 5" screen, and we're NOT limited to W10M apps using Continuum. We'd be able to run both scaling UWP apps on smaller AND larger screens, and we can then choose to NOT run full apps on smaller screens and instead reserve that for when we hook up to a larger one....

    I mean... am I missing something here or?
    TgeekB, Joe920 and a5cent like this.
    02-21-2017 09:34 PM
  4. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I don't understand.

    It seems as if you're saying it would be better to push Continuum on Windows 10 Mobile and skip Windows on ARM because nobody wants to run windows desktop apps on a 5" screen, but that's just a false dichotomy. If we're willing to use a W10M phone using continuum it stands to reason we're using the phone with a larger screen + keyboard / mouse. Ok, so at that point, at the point you're using the Continuum that was "pushed the dogcrap out of" with a large screen, keyboard and mouse, you've just made exactly the case for Windows 10 ("full") on a phone anyway!

    Because again, as has been pointed out repeatedly, once you're carrying what is effectively a Windows PC in your palm, with a 5" screen, why would you NOT want to be able to run those larger apps when connected to the very same devices you'd connect to using Continuum???

    I just think people continuously fail to understand that a Windows 10 running on ARM would give us all the options currently available as far as form factors are concerned. We're NOT limited to full W10 software on a 5" screen, and we're NOT limited to W10M apps using Continuum. We'd be able to run both scaling UWP apps on smaller AND larger screens, and we can then choose to NOT run full apps on smaller screens and instead reserve that for when we hook up to a larger one....

    I mean... am I missing something here or?
    Full Windows on a 5" screen is a non-starter. It’s barely usable on a 8" screen. As I said, unless they can scale the UI, I'd much rather have a better Continuum experience. Unless we go back to resistive screens and a stylus, Windows icons are too small for phone-sized displays. I'm not sure what your confusion is.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-21-2017 11:16 PM
  5. Rosebank's Avatar
    Has anybody here ever used Remote Desktop? If you have, you know what x86 on a 5" screen looks like.
    Yes I have experience with this and its a pain in the rear end, not to mention laggy and frustrating, its not too good but a handy tool, I just cant see this PC on a 5 or 6 inch screen working well. I hope it does work well though.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    02-22-2017 05:31 AM
  6. TgeekB's Avatar
    I don't understand.

    It seems as if you're saying it would be better to push Continuum on Windows 10 Mobile and skip Windows on ARM because nobody wants to run windows desktop apps on a 5" screen, but that's just a false dichotomy. If we're willing to use a W10M phone using continuum it stands to reason we're using the phone with a larger screen + keyboard / mouse. Ok, so at that point, at the point you're using the Continuum that was "pushed the dogcrap out of" with a large screen, keyboard and mouse, you've just made exactly the case for Windows 10 ("full") on a phone anyway!

    Because again, as has been pointed out repeatedly, once you're carrying what is effectively a Windows PC in your palm, with a 5" screen, why would you NOT want to be able to run those larger apps when connected to the very same devices you'd connect to using Continuum???

    I just think people continuously fail to understand that a Windows 10 running on ARM would give us all the options currently available as far as form factors are concerned. We're NOT limited to full W10 software on a 5" screen, and we're NOT limited to W10M apps using Continuum. We'd be able to run both scaling UWP apps on smaller AND larger screens, and we can then choose to NOT run full apps on smaller screens and instead reserve that for when we hook up to a larger one....

    I mean... am I missing something here or?
    This.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    02-22-2017 05:48 AM
  7. Joe920's Avatar
    Full Windows on a 5" screen is a non-starter.
    I think the argument is that full Windows on a 5" screen would not have to look any different than WP10 does. Just don't run x86 apps while you're in phone mode. But once you connect to a dock it would be awesome if full windowing, multitasking, and x86 apps were all available.

    That said, I'm already mentally preparing for places like The Verge ignoring this utility and focusing their review on ridiculing the traditional Windows UI on a small screen. See, the Surface Phone doesn't even exist yet, and I'm already upset with the bad reviews! :)
    02-22-2017 06:03 AM
  8. Joe920's Avatar
    Only very loosely related: the latest Samsung Galaxy S8 leaks show that Android will soon also offer docking to an external screen and Windowing support.

    Positive take: that means more docking stations out there in the world. Negative take: MS is getting ready to have their lunch eaten by Android yet again. :)

    Yes I do realize Android doesn't run Windows x86 code

    02-22-2017 06:16 AM
  9. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I think the argument is that full Windows on a 5" screen would not have to look any different than WP10 does. Just don't run x86 apps while you're in phone mode. But once you connect to a dock it would be awesome if full windowing, multitasking, and x86 apps were all available.

    That said, I'm already mentally preparing for places like The Verge ignoring this utility and focusing their review on ridiculing the traditional Windows UI on a small screen. See, the Surface Phone doesn't even exist yet, and I'm already upset with the bad reviews! :)
    I sincerely hope that's what they end up doing. But everything I've read shows a pocket PC with telephony. The Surface Phone has been conjured up by readers desperate for a killer Microsoft phone. To make matters worse they used the x3 as a mule in the video for the SD835 and x3 owners think their devices are going to be able to do this. I hope I'm wrong on this but I'm seeing something different than the rest.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-22-2017 07:01 AM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    But everything I've read shows a pocket PC with telephony.
    We must be reading very different articles, because everything I've read (from anyone who can be taken seriously) suggests otherwise. At this point I'd be stunned if it'd be even technically possible to see a desktop of any kind (either the Win32 desktop or the UWP desktop) on a 5" display. IMO at 5" W10oA's UI will be identical to W10M's and you'll only be able to run UWP apps that support phone sized UIs.

    IMO you'll never even see the desktop without using a larger display. Period.

    Of course, if your phone comes with a foldable display, unfolding it two or three times would result in a sufficiently large display. 😉
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-22-2017 at 10:58 AM.
    Rosebank, Joe920 and mattiasnyc like this.
    02-22-2017 10:48 AM
  11. Rosebank's Avatar
    We must be reading very different articles, because everything I've read (from anyone who can be taken seriously) suggests otherwise. At this point I'd be stunned if it'd be even technically possible to see a desktop of any kind (either the Win32 desktop or the UWP desktop) on a 5" display. IMO at 5" the UI will be identical to W10M and you'll only be able to run UWP apps that support phone sized UIs. Basically no different from W10M.


    IMO you'll never even see the desktop without using a larger display. Period.


    Of course, if your phone comes with a foldable display, unfolding it two or three times would result in sufficiently large display.
    Could not agree more and a folding display with durability and multi function could be the answer, ie-when folded 1 side or 1 fold still displays as a screen.
    This is getting interesting, and I simply cant wait to see how they solve this or present us with the answer.
    02-22-2017 10:54 AM
  12. Joe920's Avatar
    This is getting interesting, and I simply cant wait to see how they solve this or present us with the answer.
    Can't wait to own a Surface Phone and getting annoyed with the lack of Waze and Google Maps all over again. :)
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-22-2017 11:00 AM
  13. Rosebank's Avatar
    Can't wait to own a Surface Phone and getting annoyed with the lack of Waze and Google Maps all over again. :)
    Its going to have to be something very special to tempt me back over, i wont jump on some band-wagon craze unless i know its good, functional and solid, i will also wait at least 5 or 6 months (if all sounds good) before i jump back over to a surface phone or whatever it is, i will be studying the forums, reports and reviews very seriously in that time.
    Joe920 and a5cent like this.
    02-22-2017 11:11 AM
  14. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Nothing breeds arguments more than ignorance. Nobody outside of Microsoft's inner sanctum knows what this is going to end up being. We've seen mockups and patent sketches, that's all. I use the term ignorance in it's most literal form - lack of knowledge.

    Several hypotheses have been put forth based on each member's view of what's been shown or leaked. How about we show each other some respect and not pretend like any of us knows WTF is going on?

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Rosebank and TgeekB like this.
    02-22-2017 11:58 AM
  15. Rosebank's Avatar
    How about we show each other some respect and not pretend like any of us knows WTF is going on?
    How about MS show us some respect and keep us in the loop instead of keeping us guessing what's happening with W10m, Surface phone, and Emulation, we have a situation here where the current platform is on the brink of collapse in terms of users yet we expect there to be some good faith left for us to jump onto the next "telephone" from MS, I mean this is scrambled egg at best.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    02-22-2017 12:05 PM
  16. Joe920's Avatar
    Nothing breeds arguments more than ignorance. Nobody outside of Microsoft's inner sanctum knows what this is going to end up being
    How about MS show us some respect and keep us in the loop instead of keeping us guessing
    Maybe they're keeping it vague on purpose, hoping that we will tell them what the heck this would be good for.

    Just kidding!
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-22-2017 12:27 PM
  17. Rosebank's Avatar
    Maybe they're keeping it vague on purpose, hoping that we will tell them what the heck this would be good for.

    Just kidding!
    02-22-2017 12:42 PM
  18. fatclue_98's Avatar
    How about MS show us some respect and keep us in the loop instead of keeping us guessing what's happening with W10m, Surface phone, and Emulation, we have a situation here where the current platform is on the brink of collapse in terms of users yet we expect there to be some good faith left for us to jump onto the next "telephone" from MS, I mean this is scrambled egg at best.
    Yes, that would be nice of them but seeing as no other company gives their users a sneak peek like we've been getting, maybe we're spoiled. Also, I don't think they give a hairy rat's a** about mobile users anyway. I use their products because it helps put money in MY pocket better than the competition. Anything else is gravy.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Rosebank and TgeekB like this.
    02-22-2017 12:43 PM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    How about MS show us some respect and keep us in the loop instead of keeping us guessing what's happening with W10m, Surface phone, and Emulation, we have a situation here where the current platform is on the brink of collapse in terms of users yet we expect there to be some good faith left for us to jump onto the next "telephone" from MS, I mean this is scrambled egg at best.
    That would be cool but companies don't do that.
    It is fun to speculate though.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-22-2017 01:40 PM
  20. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Full Windows on a 5" screen is a non-starter. It’s barely usable on a 8" screen. As I said, unless they can scale the UI, I'd much rather have a better Continuum experience. Unless we go back to resistive screens and a stylus, Windows icons are too small for phone-sized displays. I'm not sure what your confusion is.
    I didn't say that windows on a 5" screen was NOT a non-starter. My point really was a conclusion of what you are saying. Think about it for a second:

    You say you don't want a Windows experience on a 5" screen. That would be sort of "shrinking" this larger experience to a smaller screen. I don't disagree. You then say it's better to have a better Continuum experience. I don't disagree with that either.

    Now, what is this Continuum experience made up of? It consists of a) a mobile device (small 5" screen for example) + b) a larger screen with keyboard/mouse.

    So what I'm asking you is this: If you have the option of carrying with you a device that can do ONLY mobile apps scaled up via Continuum OR those very same apps AND 'desktop' apps as well, why would you pick the former and not the latter? In both cases you would bring the exact same device in your pocket, it's just that Windows 10 on ARM would give you more.
    Joe920, TgeekB, a5cent and 1 others like this.
    02-22-2017 01:42 PM
  21. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Only very loosely related: the latest Samsung Galaxy S8 leaks show that Android will soon also offer docking to an external screen and Windowing support.

    Positive take: that means more docking stations out there in the world. Negative take: MS is getting ready to have their lunch eaten by Android yet again. :)

    Yes I do realize Android doesn't run Windows x86 code
    Well I think that last point is why the 'lunch won't be eaten'. I think that ultimately we're using a very large amount of MS software on desktops and laptops, and unless they always port those to Android we'll still be using Windows 10 compatible devices.
    TgeekB and Rosebank like this.
    02-22-2017 01:47 PM
  22. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I didn't say that windows on a 5" screen was NOT a non-starter. My point really was a conclusion of what you are saying. Think about it for a second:

    You say you don't want a Windows experience on a 5" screen. That would be sort of "shrinking" this larger experience to a smaller screen. I don't disagree. You then say it's better to have a better Continuum experience. I don't disagree with that either.

    Now, what is this Continuum experience made up of? It consists of a) a mobile device (small 5" screen for example) + b) a larger screen with keyboard/mouse.

    So what I'm asking you is this: If you have the option of carrying with you a device that can do ONLY mobile apps scaled up via Continuum OR those very same apps AND 'desktop' apps as well, why would you pick the former and not the latter? In both cases you would bring the exact same device in your pocket, it's just that Windows 10 on ARM would give you more.
    But that's the point. No one has said with any certainty that we will have both. My point is that if I have the choice between one or the other I'll take an enhanced version of Continuum as opposed to a desktop with phone capability. Maybe my English isn't as good as I thought, I thought I was clear on this.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    a5cent and Rosebank like this.
    02-22-2017 02:29 PM
  23. Joe920's Avatar
    Well I think that last point is why the 'lunch won't be eaten'. I think that ultimately we're using a very large amount of MS software on desktops and laptops, and unless they always port those to Android we'll still be using Windows 10 compatible devices.
    Of course I don't think Win10 will disappear any time soon, and some (initially?) small market for people who want a pocketable and dockable Win10 device seems feasible to me as well, lack of apps be darned. BUT..

    If you give a user an Android phone with all the apps, that can also run a larger version of the Chrome browser and the pretty full-featured MS Office Android apps when docked, this is beginning to look like an Android device that the average consumer could use for moderately serious work.

    Of course there are many professionals that would need more than that, but I think a dockable Android phone with windowed MS Office apps and a windowed file manager would be an attractive proposition for some. Possibly more attractive than a Win10 phone. We'll see though. Both sound pretty awesome to me!
    TgeekB, fatclue_98 and Rosebank like this.
    02-22-2017 03:17 PM
  24. TgeekB's Avatar
    We just need a time machine so we can zip forward a little and see what it will actually look like!
    Good conversation though and very interesting. Keep it coming. Think outside the box, not what we have today.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    fatclue_98 and Joe920 like this.
    02-22-2017 03:51 PM
  25. a5cent's Avatar
    Nothing breeds arguments more than ignorance. Nobody outside of Microsoft's inner sanctum knows what this is going to end up being. We've seen mockups and patent sketches, that's all.
    I'd say we have a lot more to go on than just that.
    We know MS thinks continuum is important and some of what they have planned on that front. We also have info on CShell which IMHO is a big part of the puzzle.
    I also think I already have a pretty good picture of how all these system components will fit together in the OS' software stack.
    You're of course right that we don't KNOW much with certainty. For example, I have no idea whether a foldable display is even planned. But if we ignore hardware and look only at the software, I do think an ever clearer picture is emerging. I think we are at a point where we can very much say what looks likely and what doesn't.

    Anyway, I didn't intend to offend. Sorry if I did.
    fatclue_98 and Rosebank like this.
    02-22-2017 06:42 PM
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