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09-25-2017 07:54 PM
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  1. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I'd say we have a lot more to go on than just that.
    We know MS thinks continuum is important and some of what they have planned on that front. We also have info on CShell which IMHO is a big part of the puzzle.
    I also think I already have a pretty good picture of how all these system components will fit together in the OS' software stack.
    You're of course right that we don't KNOW much with certainty. For example, I have no idea whether a foldable display is even planned. But if we ignore hardware and look only at the software, I do think an ever clearer picture is emerging. I think we are at a point where we can very much say what looks likely and what doesn't.

    Anyway, I didn't intend to offend. Sorry if I did.
    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    02-22-2017 06:53 PM
  2. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    But that's the point. No one has said with any certainty that we will have both. My point is that if I have the choice between one or the other I'll take an enhanced version of Continuum as opposed to a desktop with phone capability. Maybe my English isn't as good as I thought, I thought I was clear on this.

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    It seems pointless to argue (what seems to be) against Win on ARM simply because you don't know whether or not there will be apps that scale down to a smaller form factor. That's why your statements looked like a false dichotomy, like two alternatives that aren't the only two (the above ones).

    As a matter of fact, if you read up on MS' approach to Windows 10 from a technical standpoint, or even if you just watch some of the videos found here on this website, it seems clear to me that the future W10 will at its core make this adaptation between form factors close to automatic. I actually don't even see how UWP apps in the future won't scale down to smaller screens successfully.

    But even if they don't there's still something you're missing; people buy stuff like this:



    for a reason. Generally consumers don't like to have tower-size PCs taking up space in the office or looking ugly in living rooms. People love small devices with sufficient power to do what they want. So even IF the future Win10 on ARM doesn't have apps that shrink nicely to smaller screens there's still an argument for getting them, which is size and power savings. So again, why would someone go and buy a big bulky desktop to run something that can run just as well on a Win 10 on ARM tiny device, even if that device is a "smartphone" with a 5" screen and an always on LTE connection, and connects to a larger screen/TV and mouse/keyboard....?

    So, I actually see several reasons for why there's a good reason to buy these devices.

    And if you still think there is no indication that at least UWP apps will shrink nicely to smaller screens then watch some videos or read some articles on it here.
    02-22-2017 09:56 PM
  3. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Of course I don't think Win10 will disappear any time soon, and some (initially?) small market for people who want a pocketable and dockable Win10 device seems feasible to me as well, lack of apps be darned. BUT..

    If you give a user an Android phone with all the apps, that can also run a larger version of the Chrome browser and the pretty full-featured MS Office Android apps when docked, this is beginning to look like an Android device that the average consumer could use for moderately serious work.

    Of course there are many professionals that would need more than that, but I think a dockable Android phone with windowed MS Office apps and a windowed file manager would be an attractive proposition for some. Possibly more attractive than a Win10 phone. We'll see though. Both sound pretty awesome to me!
    yyyyyyyyyes.... I can sort of see how some would be attracted to that. My hunch tells me however that the migration of actual W10 software would be fairly slow, and in conjunction with all the corporations that still wouldn't switch specifically to Android/Chrome as an OS and who might want more secure software (UWP) etc I'm not so sure Google will be able to pull that off fast enough.

    To me it comes back at least partially to what a corporation would consider doing when updating a fleet of computers. Suppose the alternatives are Android as stated above versus W10ARM. If the corporation already has a support system for MS products and the transition appears to be borderline seamless (in that the same apps now just work on smaller devices) then why switch?
    02-22-2017 10:05 PM
  4. Tien-Lin Chang's Avatar
    Couldn't go through all the discussion but I think there are histories about emulators and the huge performance drop is there. Anyone remember how much more it takes to run PlayStation emulator smoothly compare to the original hardware spec? Or how the transmeta claim how good their decoder inside CPU works yet the real performance is just meh.

    There's no prove to me that MS had found something that can overcome this issue.
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-24-2017 06:21 AM
  5. Rosebank's Avatar
    I cant help but think there is some sort of cloud solution to this, because as you say, emulation is never always that good, or some external (docking) device taking the load from the SD835, then again the emulation might be done entirely from within the self contained unit.
    It has gone quiet admittedly.
    ...and the clock is ticking.
    02-24-2017 07:02 AM
  6. a5cent's Avatar
    There's no prove to me that MS had found something that can overcome this issue.
    Yup. It is simply not possible to have a software based emulator emulate another type of CPU (with an incompatible instruction set) without incurring a performance hit that reduces performance by an order of multitudes. That's why a software-only approach to emulation is typically only feasible for older systems (like last gen consoles), where the newer system is simultaneously faster by an order of multitudes (allowing performance reduction and improvement to cancel each other out). HOWEVER, it appears there is something special about some of ARM's more recent CPU designs, that allows MS to accelerate x86 instruction translation on ARM. With some direct hardware support, the performance hit can NOT be circumvented, but it can be drastically reduced. So, while MS has not found a way to overcome the performance hit of software based emulation (that simply doesn't exist), MS may, together with ARM, have found a way to implement much of the heavy lifting in hardware, thereby significantly reducing the amount of work the software emulator must do.

    Either way, as you say, we won't know how x86 emulation performs until they release the emulator. What MS demoed so far simply wasn't useful in terms of judging performance.
    Rosebank and Tien-Lin Chang like this.
    02-24-2017 08:36 AM
  7. a5cent's Avatar
    I cant help but think there is some sort of cloud solution to this.
    How MS has implemented x86 emulation on ARM is IMHO the least clearly outlined part of the next update. It's almost impossible to find detailed information. Assuming the little reporting we've seen so far is accurate, we can be almost certain of the following however:
    1)
    Emulation will run directly on the device (no dock, no cloud)
    2)
    The OS will run natively on ARM (without emulation). Only the installed Win32 desktop software for x86 is emulated.
    Rosebank and Tien-Lin Chang like this.
    02-24-2017 08:40 AM
  8. Tien-Lin Chang's Avatar
    some external (docking) device taking the load from the SD835, then again the emulation might be done entirely from within the self contained unit.
    If so then the NUC PC is already a good solution : portable size, great preformance(compare to mobile device) and full-windows UX from day 1....

    It's like the continuum, you buying paticular phone, paying for the dock with comparable size/weight/price of a computer stick+USB hub+any phone and the later one provide way more complete OS experience......
    02-24-2017 12:20 PM
  9. fatclue_98's Avatar
    The OS will run natively on ARM (without emulation). Only the installed Win32 desktop software for x86 is emulated.
    Which OS are we referring to? Mobile or desktop? Isn't what you're describing WinRT or reasonable facsimile?
    02-24-2017 01:17 PM
  10. Rosebank's Avatar
    I know one thing, if the device is NOT small enough and is simply a Tablet with Telephony I wont be buying it, I can go buy a tablet that does that now if I want, I want a MOBILE (small) device that fits in ANY pocket and not a Tablet that is cumbersome and needs its own chauffeur to carry it around. 6 inch is borderline for me. The wife would disagree.... :-)
    fatclue_98, TgeekB and a5cent like this.
    02-24-2017 01:30 PM
  11. fatclue_98's Avatar
    I know one thing, if the device is NOT small enough and is simply a Tablet with Telephony I wont be buying it, I can go buy a tablet that does that now if I want, I want a MOBILE (small) device that fits in ANY pocket and not a Tablet that is cumbersome and needs its own chauffeur to carry it around. 6 inch is borderline for me. The wife would disagree.... :-)
    TMI

    Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-24-2017 03:44 PM
  12. TgeekB's Avatar
    I know one thing, if the device is NOT small enough and is simply a Tablet with Telephony I wont be buying it, I can go buy a tablet that does that now if I want, I want a MOBILE (small) device that fits in ANY pocket and not a Tablet that is cumbersome and needs its own chauffeur to carry it around. 6 inch is borderline for me. The wife would disagree.... :-)
    I agree. It has to be mobile (pocketable) and plug it into a dock/peripheral to do real work.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-24-2017 04:23 PM
  13. a5cent's Avatar
    Which OS are we referring to? Mobile or desktop?
    Specifically to W10oA, which is simply:

    a) full W10 (the exact same source code) re-compiled for ARM.
    b) with an x86 emulator thrown in.

    Isn't what you're describing WinRT or reasonable facsimile?
    In part. W10oA and W8RT are both mostly just re-compiled versions of the full W8 or W10 source code.

    In contrast to W10oA however, W8RT explicitly prevented x86 desktop applications from being installed and, most importantly, it didn't include an emulator to run x86 software.

    The desktop software W8RT could run (Office) was also re-compiled for ARM, so running that didn't require an emulator.

    Whether we can call W10oA a facsimile depends on what we're judging I guess. In terms of how the ability to run on ARM is achieved, yes. In terms of its capabilities, specifically [edit] the ability to adapt to different screen sizes [/edit] and most importantly, to run x86 desktop software, no.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-25-2017 at 11:05 PM.
    Rosebank likes this.
    02-24-2017 10:30 PM
  14. Rosebank's Avatar
    03-31-2017 01:46 PM
  15. Rosebank's Avatar
    The classic or standard win32 apps can be installed and run exactly the same way as would expect on a normal PC. All of this action happens during the runtime through a custom Microsoft emulator, Windows on Windows (WOW).
    05-12-2017 03:01 AM
  16. Rosebank's Avatar
    https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171
    **FINALLY HERE WE HAVE X86 EMULATION DESCRIBED**
    We also get to see ALL-8 CORES running and contributing which I mentioned in my very first post Brining the Forum thread full circle.
    Last edited by Rosebank; 05-12-2017 at 03:58 AM.
    05-12-2017 03:41 AM
  17. Joe920's Avatar
    https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171
    **FINALLY HERE WE HAVE X86 EMULATION DESCRIBED**
    Nice video. The second presenter gives a pretty detailed description. Or so I believe because I only understood 5% of that. :)
    Rosebank likes this.
    05-12-2017 06:42 AM
  18. Drael646464's Avatar
    There are limited applications for this on a smartphone sized screen. Running webapps via chromium engine. Maybe office, browsers. Some games.

    It's perfectly possible on current hardware, but would be more useful for continuum and a TONNE more useful using ARM on tablets or notebooks.

    The number of cores isn't actually an indication of power btw, additional cores are never fully utilised as well as the first one. Smartphone CPUs add more cores rather than more ghz, because of heat concerns. Which is why phones have more cores than high end desktops - its not actually a sign of power, its a way to eek out tiny bits of power when heat and size are constraints.
    05-12-2017 08:55 AM
  19. Drael646464's Avatar
    I know one thing, if the device is NOT small enough and is simply a Tablet with Telephony I wont be buying it, I can go buy a tablet that does that now if I want, I want a MOBILE (small) device that fits in ANY pocket and not a Tablet that is cumbersome and needs its own chauffeur to carry it around. 6 inch is borderline for me. The wife would disagree.... :-)
    Well lets agree to disagree then.

    I would absolutely buy a windows tablet with GPS, 4.5G, SMS etc. Especially if it was small enough to put in a bag, and had active stylus. There's nothing in android or ios that really compares to windows software, interopability, or stylus app support and I don't like those platforms as much. And windows generally speaking doesn't come with "the full deal".

    Computer on the go, that doubles as a phone? Count me in!

    BTW, windows on ARM is ABSOLUTELY not coming to smartphones this year, and probably not next either. They haven't got it ready for tablets/notebooks yet, their stated purpose for releasing it, and ontop of that work, they need to optimise the UI, and finetune the bejesus out of the battery optimisation to make a phone (plus also have a FF and implementation that is truly new, as satya stated of phones).

    You are simply not getting a standard glass slab smartphone with WoA period. It might be a credit card sized clamshell. It might have 3d augmented reality. But not what you expect.
    05-12-2017 08:59 AM
  20. Rosebank's Avatar
    It might be a credit card sized clamshell. It might have 3d augmented reality. But not what you expect.
    MS have made it quite clear since previous comments on this thread that the NEXT device wont be a phone as we know it, but thanks for reminding us of that, we have also seen a Patent for a device with a folding screen, lets agree anything is possible. We have a better understanding of matters from today at least. I do however stand by my point that a tablet is not what I want personally and I would not buy a PC/TABLET, I want a smaller device. Folding screen could make this a reality.
    05-12-2017 09:36 AM
  21. Drael646464's Avatar
    MS have made it quite clear since previous comments on this thread that the NEXT device wont be a phone as we know it, but thanks for reminding us of that, we have also seen a Patent for a device with a folding screen, lets agree anything is possible. We have a better understanding of matters from today at least. I do however stand by my point that a tablet is not what I want personally and I would not buy a PC/TABLET, I want a smaller device. Folding screen could make this a reality.
    Well it'll come eventually, when the price of producing graphene at manufacture comes down. MS has the patent it shares with Samsung on the tech of the folding graphene OLED screen. The major hurdle for a seemless folding design is just the manufacture of graphene. Its kind of supertech stuff right now.
    Rosebank likes this.
    05-12-2017 11:16 AM
  22. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    There are limited applications for this on a smartphone sized screen. Running webapps via chromium engine. Maybe office, browsers. Some games.

    It's perfectly possible on current hardware, but would be more useful for continuum and a TONNE more useful using ARM on tablets or notebooks.
    I think the promise of getting one small device that you carry with you and then scale upwards in size by connecting - whether it's called continuum or something else - is very exciting and promising. That would truly revolutionize things I think. The "usability" of windows on a small screen would be a moot point, because it'll adapt and so will we. If I only have the small screen I only use it for certain things. If I hook it up to a larger screen I use it for other things.

    The number of cores isn't actually an indication of power btw, additional cores are never fully utilised as well as the first one. Smartphone CPUs add more cores rather than more ghz, because of heat concerns. Which is why phones have more cores than high end desktops - its not actually a sign of power, its a way to eek out tiny bits of power when heat and size are constraints.
    Not really sure I agree with that though. Well designed applications do make use of all cores available. And the thing is that some processes get stalled if they have to wait for others to finish, so by making more cores available you can perform calculations in parallel which is a huge benefit as long as they don't need the resulting data from each other. So high end desktops have 8 cores these days.
    05-13-2017 03:58 PM
  23. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    MS have made it quite clear since previous comments on this thread that the NEXT device wont be a phone as we know it, but thanks for reminding us of that, we have also seen a Patent for a device with a folding screen, lets agree anything is possible. We have a better understanding of matters from today at least. I do however stand by my point that a tablet is not what I want personally and I would not buy a PC/TABLET, I want a smaller device. Folding screen could make this a reality.
    I'd look for a smartphone-size device as well. I would however love to have a "dumb" tablet that hooks up to this new small device via continuum or whatever. Ideally we'd pay only for screens of different sizes, keyboards and mice - once - instead of also always paying for more processing power. So, smart"phone" + dumb tablet, dumb monitor and input devices. All connectivity via smart"phone".
    Rosebank likes this.
    05-13-2017 04:00 PM
  24. Drael646464's Avatar
    Not really sure I agree with that though. Well designed applications do make use of all cores available. And the thing is that some processes get stalled if they have to wait for others to finish, so by making more cores available you can perform calculations in parallel which is a huge benefit as long as they don't need the resulting data from each other. So high end desktops have 8 cores these days.
    That's partly because we are reaching nm limits, and moores law is broken.

    More cores is better for some applications, but not currently most, even if its coded for.

    You'll basically never see the processing fully evenly distributed.

    Say you have 16 cores running 100 MHz and two cores running 800 Mhz - the later is going to be faster outside of software that specifically needs/is designed to run parallel, like neural networking.

    Massively parallel is something that will happen in the future, but its better suited for certain applications. Graphics, machine learning. The difference is perhaps something like the difference between logic and creativity/intuition in the human brain.

    Some processes really benefit from parallel processing, others not so much.
    05-13-2017 11:46 PM
  25. Drael646464's Avatar
    I'd look for a smartphone-size device as well. I would however love to have a "dumb" tablet that hooks up to this new small device via continuum or whatever. Ideally we'd pay only for screens of different sizes, keyboards and mice - once - instead of also always paying for more processing power. So, smart"phone" + dumb tablet, dumb monitor and input devices. All connectivity via smart"phone".
    I'd never use just one device. Tablet and phone makes sense to me, or tablet and media device or all those and laptop, but I want to be part of the VR future, do those power tasks too. And I like second screening. So two devices is kind my minimum.
    05-13-2017 11:49 PM
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