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12-21-2016 07:56 PM
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  1. pedmar007's Avatar
    For too long I've been reading about the many bugs/issues that WP users are having since moving to W10M. From many of these bugs/issues it looks like it's down to the restrictions that pairing a 64bit processor to a 32bit OS will create. Has anyone ever stopped to think that the reason why IOS and Android devices right now as so quick to do what you ask them to do is simply because they're paired with both 64bit enabled processors and OS. The constant CU OS updates on RS1 and RS2 we shouldn't still be reading about battery heating issues, vol issues, camera slow, app crashes, resuming/loading screens. Seriously many on W10M and using a 950 series should never be complaining but yet we are. What makes any Note 7, S7/edge, I6S/+,I7S/+ any faster than my 950XL, the IPhones run with 3gb ram, so does mine, they run with quad core proc, mine with octa-core. So why is mine "slower"?

    Instead of the many many WP users complaining about when to see a surface phone release, they/we should channel our grievances into when are they going to 'switch' to 64bit OS and when that's done it should now pair our chipset with the OS to run more efficiently = faster responses from the software, less loading/resuming screens. Instead of us asking why doesn't this app work like this or that one from xxx. Turn your concerns to MS switching this 32bit OS to 64 and when that's done, THEN let's talk and shout for improved hardware.

    Get it straight people it makes no sense putting together the best and most creative cake icing job on a wedding/birthday cake and when it's cut and eaten the people complain about it being too bitter or too sweet. So why do we push for a SURFACE PHONE for it to be released with an OS that makes its buyers regret buying it to have them say that MS should've fixed the OS first before releasing the device.

    Don't forget what happened to the 950 series on release, we're still here a yr and 2 months later with OS issues and device complaints that are really software issues but it's easy to point at hardware when others work without issue running same software.
    horseybob and Montpbm like this.
    12-17-2016 06:02 AM
  2. milkyway's Avatar
    Nope, the performance of W10M has nothing to do with 32/64 bit
    12-17-2016 06:38 AM
  3. pedmar007's Avatar
    How so? then what's the problem then? So you're saying that if Apple or Google reverted their OSes back to 32bit that they'd perform the same?
    Or I changed my 64bit OS on my PC to 32bit that I'd see no change in performance? If that's what you truly believe then explain the app experience on Android, IOS and WP when all 3 have same apps. Don't you think it's different to code an app to run on a 32bit sys in comparison to a 64bit one? Food for thought!!!
    oviedofreak82 and Montpbm like this.
    12-17-2016 10:22 AM
  4. milkyway's Avatar
    Do you know the difference between correlation and causality? Only because the other OS is 64 bit and is faster does not mean that the 64 bit structure is the reason for it.
    64 bit brings only minor performance improvements and can (rarely) even lead to performance loss
    12-17-2016 11:23 AM
  5. daimv's Avatar
    Samsung S7's processor is quite a bit more powerful that 950's or 950xl, that has a big impact I guess.
    Saijin_Naib and Montpbm like this.
    12-17-2016 03:43 PM
  6. daimv's Avatar
    But of course it is also way more expensive.
    12-17-2016 03:44 PM
  7. EspHack's Avatar
    How so? then what's the problem then? So you're saying that if Apple or Google reverted their OSes back to 32bit that they'd perform the same?
    Or I changed my 64bit OS on my PC to 32bit that I'd see no change in performance? If that's what you truly believe then explain the app experience on Android, IOS and WP when all 3 have same apps. Don't you think it's different to code an app to run on a 32bit sys in comparison to a 64bit one? Food for thought!!!
    yes, as long as you don't ever use over ~3GBs of ram

    and yes, your pc will run the same, unless again, you start using more than about 3GBs of ram

    let me explain the app experience to you, for apple and google, their mobile OS' are a top priority, *all their manpower is dedicated to them, and consequentially, app developers aim just as high for their apps to match the platform's quality standard

    depending on the tools you use, coding for either 32 or 64bit could show no difference to you, so there's that, but porting from 32bit to 64 is not often a matter of simply recompiling though

    for that latter part, recompiling to 64bit will simply increase the size of the binary, which can actually make the code slower if it impacts on cache behavior, food for thought !
    12-17-2016 04:46 PM
  8. a5cent's Avatar
    From many of these bugs/issues it looks like it's down to the restrictions that pairing a 64bit processor to a 32bit OS will create.
    I'd recommend learning a bit more about CPU technology.

    Forget what people on the internet have told you about the advantages or disadvantages of 32 bit vs 64 bit CPU designs. Except for the people here of course, it appears to have been around 99% BS.

    Then find some technical primers on CPU technology. Learn what an address- and data bus are. Learn what CPU registers are. Then learn how they differ between 64 bit and 32 bit designs. You'll then understand not only what affects "bitedness" can have on hardware and software, but also WHY.

    You'll then probably want to come back and rewrite much of that first post 😉
    pankaj981, jmshub, EspHack and 4 others like this.
    12-17-2016 04:59 PM
  9. pankaj981's Avatar
    Now that you have received enough answers explaining when the difference between 64-bit and 32-bit, now to answer your question. Its coming with the ARMx64 update rumored to launch in Q3 2017 to sometime in 2018.
    libra89, Rosebank, a5cent and 1 others like this.
    12-17-2016 08:01 PM
  10. grahamf's Avatar
    The one with Win32-on-ARM?
    12-18-2016 02:33 AM
  11. Ariel Takom's Avatar
    From what my lecturer told me in a coding class I took as an elective, 64-bit allows the OS to utilize more than 3-4GB of RAM, and that's basically the only advantage it has over 32-bit (he did say there are some other advantages, but this is the main one). It doesn't necessarily mean that the OS will perform faster, just that it allows you to perform MORE tasks simultaneously without facing any performance issues since more RAM = more app/software/tabs on browser can be opened at once.

    However, you can also use a 64-bit OS on a device that has only 3-4GB of RAM, and you'll still see the same performance as with a 32-bit OS.

    tl;dr: 64-bit allows for more RAM, thus more multi-tasking
    Montpbm, jmshub, xandros9 and 3 others like this.
    12-18-2016 06:20 AM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    ^ Well explained.

    There's a widespread misconception that RAM makes devices/software faster. I suspect that mostly comes from people's experience with memory swapping on desktop computers. If we launch more programs than can fit into RAM, then some data that should be kept in RAM is swapped out to storage (HDD, SDD, internal flash memory, etc). Reading and/or writing to memory that is swapped out to storage is excruciatingly slow. Easily 100 times slower than if it resided in RAM. That can make even the fastest computer slow as molasses.

    So, not having enough RAM can really make a computer crawl. However, once RAM capacity is large enough to hold all the programs we've launched, then adding more RAM won't improve performance at all. On a computer where RAM consumption never surpasses 3GB, there is no difference between having 3GB and 3000GB.
    12-18-2016 10:42 AM
  13. Grant Taylor3's Avatar
    Windows 10 on ARM is a little more than just an update to Windows 10 Mobile.



    It is going to bring the full power of a desktop OS to mobile.

    Going to 64-bit for the OS means that you could run virtual Machines on a device that could fit in your pocket.

    Also with 64-bit applications they can be more than just apps.

    For example Excel I think is limited to 2GB with the 32-bit version where there is not that limit with the 64-bit version.

    Like everything to get the full experience will require new hardware.

    I would love to be able to run full Windows 10 on my Lumia 950 but do I need it now on my 950 not now.

    When my contract is up and I need a new device to replace the 950 I will certainly get one of these cellular PC's if it is the same sort of form factor as the 950.
    Last edited by Grant Taylor3; 12-18-2016 at 12:50 PM.
    Rosebank likes this.
    12-18-2016 12:29 PM
  14. Giddora's Avatar
    64 bit is most of the time slower than 32 bit due to a bigger overhead size. But 64 is more modern and gives developers access to a few newer instruction sets that have been developed since 64 bit became mainstream.

    The marketing around Ios and Android being 64 bit is highly exaggerated though.
    Ariel Takom likes this.
    12-18-2016 03:16 PM
  15. BackToTheFuture's Avatar
    From what my lecturer told me in a coding class I took as an elective, 64-bit allows the OS to utilize more than 3-4GB of RAM, and that's basically the only advantage it has over 32-bit (he did say there are some other advantages, but this is the main one). It doesn't necessarily mean that the OS will perform faster, just that it allows you to perform MORE tasks simultaneously without facing any performance issues since more RAM = more app/software/tabs on browser can be opened at once.

    However, you can also use a 64-bit OS on a device that has only 3-4GB of RAM, and you'll still see the same performance as with a 32-bit OS.

    tl;dr: 64-bit allows for more RAM, thus more multi-tasking
    This holds true for x86_64 (so called AMD64) and ARM64, where the "64 bit" extension allows 64 bit memory addressing. Most of current software still works with 32-bit intergers and floats, so there's no real advantage in terms of computation.

    However, CPUs designed for very large word, like Intel Itanium, are of different breed with entirely different purpose, where 64bit registers and beyond are absolutely necessary for performance. I'm not an architecture guy so I'll stop at that.
    a5cent and Ariel Takom like this.
    12-19-2016 12:42 AM
  16. Ariel Takom's Avatar
    ^ Well explained.

    There's a widespread misconception that RAM makes devices/software faster. I suspect that mostly comes from people's experience with memory swapping on desktop computers. If we launch more programs than can fit into RAM, then some data that should be kept in RAM is swapped out to storage (HDD, SDD, internal flash memory, etc). Reading and/or writing to memory that is swapped out to storage is excruciatingly slow. Easily 100 times slower than if it resided in RAM. That can make even the fastest computer slow as molasses.

    So, not having enough RAM can really make a computer crawl. However, once RAM capacity is large enough to hold all the programs we've launched, then adding more RAM won't improve performance at all. On a computer where RAM consumption never surpasses 3GB, there is no difference between having 3GB and 3000GB.
    I know this is off-topic, but can you tell me if there's a significant impact in terms of PC performance if I upgrade my PC's RAM to still the same amount of RAM, but faster clock time. How significant is the performance gain?

    I thought of asking this since I just saw YouTube recommending a gaming video asking the question: "MORE RAM or FASTER RAM?". It was late at night so I haven't watched it yet. Will probably watch it later after work.
    12-19-2016 07:04 PM
  17. a5cent's Avatar
    I know this is off-topic, but can you tell me if there's a significant impact in terms of PC performance if I upgrade my PC's RAM to still the same amount of RAM, but faster clock time. How significant is the performance gain?

    I thought of asking this since I just saw YouTube recommending a gaming video asking the question: "MORE RAM or FASTER RAM?". It was late at night so I haven't watched it yet. Will probably watch it later after work.
    It does make a difference, but the differences aren't huge. If you can go from really bad RAM to great RAM, it might be worth it, but only if you do a lot of stuff where every bit of performance counts. I'd recommend reading this:

    DDR4 Haswell-E Scaling Review: 2133 to 3200 with G.Skill, Corsair, ADATA and Crucial
    12-19-2016 07:17 PM
  18. Grant Taylor3's Avatar
    If you are using Facebook and Twitter, YouTube and browsing the web then 64-bit is pointless.

    If on the other hand you are using large spreadsheets and dealing with large databases the 64-bit is needed.
    Rosebank and Ariel Takom like this.
    12-20-2016 02:56 AM
  19. milkyway's Avatar
    If you are using Facebook and Twitter, YouTube and browsing the web then 64-bit is pointless.

    If on the other hand you are using large spreadsheets and dealing with large databases the 64-bit is needed.
    No. There are already many posts before yours explaining 32 vs 64 bit. Did you read them?
    12-20-2016 03:43 AM
  20. Grant Taylor3's Avatar
    No. There are already many posts before yours explaining 32 vs 64 bit. Did you read them?

    ?
    12-20-2016 05:11 AM
  21. xandros9's Avatar
    ?
    He was asking if you read the previous posts that contained information regarding 32 vs 64-bit.

    Your assertion isn't quite correct, but it isn't completely wrong since those cases can overlap and swap.
    milkyway and a5cent like this.
    12-20-2016 10:41 AM
  22. Grant Taylor3's Avatar
    He was asking if you read the previous posts that contained information regarding 32 vs 64-bit.

    Your assertion isn't quite correct, but it isn't completely wrong since those cases can overlap and swap.


    He came across as rude for no reason.
    12-20-2016 12:01 PM
  23. MDK22's Avatar
    He came across as rude for no reason.
    Your perception notwithstanding ...
    Because your over-simplification was not entirely CORRECT ...
    xandros9 likes this.
    12-20-2016 12:23 PM
  24. milkyway's Avatar
    He came across as rude for no reason.
    I'm sorry if I was rude but you came into the thread and replied with information which was already (partly) debunked
    xandros9 likes this.
    12-20-2016 12:31 PM
  25. EspHack's Avatar
    I know this is off-topic, but can you tell me if there's a significant impact in terms of PC performance if I upgrade my PC's RAM to still the same amount of RAM, but faster clock time. How significant is the performance gain?

    I thought of asking this since I just saw YouTube recommending a gaming video asking the question: "MORE RAM or FASTER RAM?". It was late at night so I haven't watched it yet. Will probably watch it later after work.
    faster or bigger ram you ask? depends...

    if you're talking about gaming, and your graphics depend on an integrated chip, like an AMD APU or simply the standard "HD" graphics embedded to core i intel processors, then your ram SPEED will have a huge impact on grapfics(fps) so if you go from single channel to dual channel memory for example, you will see an enormous improvement most of the time, graphically speaking, since that kind of graphics chip is using your cpu ram, that's why you always see you have X amount of ram, but only a lesser amount of "useable" ram, the missing part is dedicated to the integrated graphics

    now if its gaming with a dedicated graphics card, like one going into a pci-e slot, then ram speeds wont change a thing most of the time, BUT, if your cpu is being a limiting factor, faster ram will help it too, lets say you run a game at 40fps no matter what graphics settings you set, that means your cpu probably cant handle anything more than that, so if you're on single channel memory and install more ram, making it dual channel, or simply swapping slower 1600mhz ram to 2400mhz ram, your cpu will get faster, just not as much as an integrated gpu would

    by the way, there's also "timings" for ram speeds, and they tend to balance out the overall ram speed, sadly, lets say you have 1600mhz ram and 1866mhz ram, the 1866 ram will probably have worse timings, meaning your actual bandwidth will be very close if not the same as the 1600mhz one, so no real upgrade there
    a5cent and Ariel Takom like this.
    12-20-2016 12:39 PM
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