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  1. erzhik's Avatar
    It's a shame really. Surface Pro is amazing, Book is amazing, Windows 10 is amazin, Surface Studio is incredible...and then there is Mobile.
    04-08-2017 01:40 PM
  2. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Seems like a lot of news got dumped this week on the W10 Mobile front. Most of it ambiguous, some of it a let down.

    How is everyone feeling about this?
    Not only have we seen reports about the trouble W10M is in for months, but a really weird thing happened right at the end after all these reports... and I mean REALLY weird:

    My phone kept working. Just the way it worked the day before.... the week before.... the month before.... And it did everything I wanted it to. I took pretty photos... synced to OneDrive... showed new emails in my live tiles... weather updates on live tiles... when my previous city of residence (Stockholm) got hit by a terrorist attack yesterday I got pushed notifications on it... the live news tile updated to reflect it... I used my phone to tap-to-pay at Trader Joes...

    and on and on and on and on........

    Really the ONLY thing that changes my experience with W10M is when I read all the whining on forums, and then it's just me being exasperated with mankind and really still has nothing to do with W10M.....

    That's how I feel about.

    Now back to the regular programming (more whining and proclamations of "death")...
    04-08-2017 02:24 PM
  3. nwnjjim's Avatar
    Very well said mattiasnyc. From someone who has been on Windows phone since 5.0, I was beginning to ask myself why I wasn't as unhappy as people on these forums. I was disappointed when my Nokia Lumia 900 and 1020 were unceremoniously obsoleted by Microsoft and couldn't be upgraded, but figured that was technology. Flagship one day, forgotten the next. Now on the 950, extremely happy, beginning to wonder why I am. With every model I had, 8125, 8525, Focus, Touch, L900, L1020 and now L900 the whining and forecasts of doom have continued. These models cover several years now and I have enjoyed every one of these phones and OS's. They have served me well. Funny, If I listen to the whiners here, I would conclude that those ba*****ds at Microsoft have been making a fool of me and feasting on my stupidity for almost a decade. These forums make me feel so good - NOT.
    mattiasnyc and rhapdog like this.
    04-08-2017 02:53 PM
  4. TgeekB's Avatar
    Not only have we seen reports about the trouble W10M is in for months, but a really weird thing happened right at the end after all these reports... and I mean REALLY weird:

    My phone kept working. Just the way it worked the day before.... the week before.... the month before.... And it did everything I wanted it to. I took pretty photos... synced to OneDrive... showed new emails in my live tiles... weather updates on live tiles... when my previous city of residence (Stockholm) got hit by a terrorist attack yesterday I got pushed notifications on it... the live news tile updated to reflect it... I used my phone to tap-to-pay at Trader Joes...

    and on and on and on and on........

    Really the ONLY thing that changes my experience with W10M is when I read all the whining on forums, and then it's just me being exasperated with mankind and really still has nothing to do with W10M.....

    That's how I feel about.

    Now back to the regular programming (more whining and proclamations of "death")...
    Yah but, but, but....

    Hope all is OK in Stockholm.

    It seems all some people can do is grab ahold of doom and gloom. When there are actually real problems in the world, which you evidenced, it's more important to let everyone know we think Windows Mobile is dead. It gets tiring.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    mattiasnyc, libra89 and aximtreo like this.
    04-08-2017 02:54 PM
  5. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    I wanted to show support for your comment, but I couldn't because you ruined it with the "liking" of the archaic android comment.
    Haha hey, I like being able to tinker. I don't like tinkering with my daily driver, but picking up an Android device and just doing weird stuff can be fun. Android has its perks, I just don't think they justify me actually using one over any of my Windows phones.
    libra89, Kevin Rush and aximtreo like this.
    04-08-2017 08:39 PM
  6. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    Guys I need help it's an emergency. My phone has continued to be amazing and work exactly like I expect it to. I don't know what to do.
    04-08-2017 08:42 PM
  7. vishwas_prabhu's Avatar
    I have come to a conclusion that no matter what, wp will be around. Sure there maybe only 10 of us left in the end but it will never be a 100% gone. Windows Phone will be around.
    Though my primary phone is an iPhone, I'll always keep my L640xl. Love for WM will never die.
    04-08-2017 10:11 PM
  8. PerfectReign's Avatar
    Should I say more?
    Need I say more than I already have around here?
    Microsoft couldn't care less about w10m users.....all 58 of them
    It is people like you, who advocate the Way of the Tux, which compel MS to abandon WM10. In fact, Ubuntu just abandoned Unity AND the smartphone because of that.
    </sarcasm >

    Seriously, Dona Sarkur just tweeted a few days ago that they're not throwing in the towel yet. I see a big picture thing for them.

    Take a look at this thread. Granted, Dona is using an Iphone, but she states that MS isn't giving up - yet.

    @donasarkar's tweet https://twitter.com/donasarkar/statu...04051006431233

    Sent from mTalk
    Richard Toft and Windowsmoose like this.
    04-08-2017 10:35 PM
  9. Kevin Rush's Avatar
    Dona is using an Iphone...
    Sent from mTalk
    The appearance of inappropriate behavior.
    .
    Certainly, the above quoted statement about Donna using an apple phone is taken out of context, but the comment, if true, is so pathetic. Just pathetic. What kind of ignorant thinking, thinks this makes any sense. She is promoting the use of apple phones with their Windows 1995 chicklet style icon user interface?

    No wonder some of the Microsoft faithful are "quitting" their support. Even Donna is encouraging the quitters.

    I won't quit the wonderful, efficient, informative Windows Mobile user interface even "if" Donna, isn't loyal and "promotes" the use of old fashioned apple phones.
    Last edited by Kevin Rush; 04-08-2017 at 11:20 PM.
    04-08-2017 11:10 PM
  10. BrunoMG's Avatar
    Linux has no business here.....but trust me, its as stable as w10 (Linux Mint. I don't use the very fat Ubuntu)
    I own a dual boot laptop. Linux for my daughter to browse safely and w10 for my activities.

    With regards to Donna using an IPhone...............I rest my case......again. That speaks for itself.

    Don't get me wrong!

    I currently have a 640, a 535, a 532 and 2 w10 tablets from a german brand called Odys......
    The tablets run fine and I really love them over android crap and BS expensive IPads......but the phones?
    They are rubbish with w10m
    Last edited by BrunoMG; 04-09-2017 at 03:18 AM.
    04-09-2017 03:07 AM
  11. Luuthian's Avatar
    I don't see the issue with Donna using an iPhone. At some point, especially as working journalistic professional, you're going to have to make the switch to anything but W10M. Not only have cameras come a long ways since she owned a 1020 then but the 1020 is dead in the water so far as updates and apps go. Suffice to say you can only make up for the app gap so much when you're taking on a particular type of work or workload. There's literally nothing wrong with her using whatever makes her happier or her workflow make more sense.

    That being said, for the people who ARE satisfied, despite the the fact Windows mobile might be at a dead end, that's fine as well so long as it's suiting their needs. To be fair it's just not necessary for most people to upgrade their cellphone frequently unless there's some greater reason to have the newer phone. Obviously some people just want a newer, fancier device. But for the most part phones haven't made such spectacular leaps in the past while that one MUST or even wants to upgrade. If a Windows Phone is fulfilling your tasks in ways you're happy with and you're satisfied with the performance and camera etc... Then what's the harm?

    Eventually that honeymoon will come to an end the same way all devices that lose in the marketplace do (we all know you replaced your HD-DVD's with something else) but for the time being W10M users don't need to make that choice if they don't want to.
    04-10-2017 11:08 PM
  12. FXi2's Avatar
    Windows phone will be fine. We have to be patient. Product life cycles are longer (everyone knows the iPhone 7 wasn't much over the 6s). And end dating phones going back 4+ years is quite normal for the industry. MS might also alter course a bit. Wait and see.
    Muessig likes this.
    04-10-2017 11:34 PM
  13. PerfectReign's Avatar
    Valid point. I made the case for Dona on Iphone simply because it is clear MS's bigger picture vision is to get their services in as many places as possible. Remember, what model of PCs first ran Excel. Brilliant move, IMO.



    Sent from mTalk
    04-10-2017 11:37 PM
  14. Haydog55's Avatar
    What do you think the future is with windows 10 mobile? I've never been so confused
    04-10-2017 11:49 PM
  15. a5cent's Avatar
    @Haydog55

    You are likely confused because your mental model includes hardware related issues (ARM, phone form factor, etc). W10M is not and never has been about that. That's all tangential. At most. Forget hardware!

    W10M is about software, more specifically it's about the UWP. At its core, W10M is a lightweight and free consumer oriented host for UWP software. Being "consumer oriented" is NOT about new or different features, but about fewer features. Specifically, it's about shedding most things related to Win32 and all the security and usability issues that come with it (which I've explained elsewhere and won't repeat here).

    W10M = Universal Windows Platform without the Win32 bloat. But also without Win32 compatibility.

    Being tied to the UWP means W10M can only ever be as relevant as the UWP is, and that's the problem. It's irrelevant to most. If UWP ever becomes more popular, so will W10M. Otherwise the UWP and W10M will go down together.

    The interesting question is: how will UWP make gains in popularity and achieve relevancy? That's what nobody yet understands. Some say UWP will forever remain a niche if MS neglects W10M on smartphones (like some WCentral writers). Others (including MS) say W10M on smartphones is a lost cause, which is why they are looking for a different path to popularize their mobile offerings and the UWP along with it.

    We shall see...
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-11-2017 at 04:02 AM. Reason: spelling
    libra89 and Muessig like this.
    04-11-2017 03:50 AM
  16. tgp's Avatar
    Being tied to the UWP means W10M can only ever be as relevant as the UWP is, and that's the problem. It's irrelevant to most. If UWP ever becomes more popular, so will W10M. Otherwise the UWP and W10M will go down together.
    @a5cent, I would like your opinion on this question I have: it seems that so far, the development of W10M is behind its competition. From my experience, and from what I read, it still suffers from instability and "immaturity". Even taking the app shortage and quality out of the equation, it still has issues. This could be in part because it's been around for only a couple years and is still fresh out of the gate, or maybe it is caused by fundamental flaws in its design.

    Now, let's imagine that UWP would have taken off very quickly, and that the Store would be flooded with high quality apps for mobile. Do you believe Microsoft would have doubled down on W10M development and given it higher priority? Are they seemingly indifferent to its quality right now because of the low market share? Would we have stability and maturity to rival iOS and Android?
    a5cent and libra89 like this.
    04-11-2017 08:03 AM
  17. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Didn't we see two reports of confirmed announcements of new W10M phones this past week? One by a German manufacturer, and one by one based in the UK?

    That should then bring us to a possible 4 new devices coming; an updated HP x3, the above two, and the Cerulean (assuming they get the funding).
    04-11-2017 09:22 AM
  18. unichips's Avatar
    I saw news that the Lumia 640 will be receiving the Creators Update. Based on the announced lifecycles from the last few releases of Windows 10 Mobile, that suggests Microsoft intends to provide it with sustaining and security updates until at least April 2019.

    That being the case, we'd be looking at a smartphone originally purchased as far back as March 2015 that would likely continue to have vendor support at least 4 years later. That's actually pretty spectacular compared with most of the competition.
    milkyway likes this.
    04-11-2017 09:33 AM
  19. a5cent's Avatar
    @a5cent, I would like your opinion on this question I have: it seems that so far, the development of W10M is behind its competition. From my experience, and from what I read, it still suffers from instability and "immaturity". Even taking the app shortage and quality out of the equation, it still has issues. This could be in part because it's been around for only a couple years and is still fresh out of the gate, or maybe it is caused by fundamental flaws in its design.

    Now, let's imagine that UWP would have taken off very quickly, and that the Store would be flooded with high quality apps for mobile. Do you believe Microsoft would have doubled down on W10M development and given it higher priority? Are they seemingly indifferent to its quality right now because of the low market share? Would we have stability and maturity to rival iOS and Android?
    The "what would have been" questions are always hard. ;-)

    If UWP had taken off and the store had been flooded with high quality apps for smartphones, then yes, we'd now definitely be witnessing a lot higher level of investment in W10M. It's because MS no longer sees W10M as the primary path to popularizing the UWP that W10M has fallen somewhat by the wayside.

    Had W10M not fallen by the wayside, could it then have rivaled iOS and Android in terms of maturity and stability? No. It would likely have been better than it is now, but still nowhere close to Android and iOS.

    Unfortunately, I can't provide a comprehensive explanation as to why that is so. Here are just some things to consider:

    • Both Android and W10M (but not WP7, WP8 or iOS), are based on comparatively heavy OSes that were built for desktops/servers. It took Google many years and billions of dollars to advance Android from where it started out to where it is now. MS has barely been on that path for two years.
    • MS doesn't get as much velocity out of each dollar spent on W10M as Google got out of each dollar spent on Android. That's because Windows constitutes a far more complicated environment to work in. Every change a W10M developer makes can and often will affect not just W10M, but also Windows IoT, Holographic, Xbox, W10, etc. All of the others also impact W10M. That necessitates a lot more upfront planing. Developers must consider multiple operating systems and their occasionally mutually exclusive requirements. Every change must be tested on every OS, rather than just once on Android. An app that is built for W10M must also work on larger screens. All that added complexity will continue to cost MS dearly in terms of both money and time.
    • Android was never employed in mission-critical processes, which allowed Google to prioritize time-to-market over all other concerns. That isn't a luxury MS has with Windows.
    • Google never had to worry much about adapting Android to various hardware platforms. Every component supplier under the sun made drivers for Android (like Qualcomm) which OEMs received free of charge as part of their hardware purchase. Everything else (software integration, device compatibility, hardware optimization, etc) was and is the OEMs problem, not Google's. MS must do all of that themselves.

    I could list many more complications, but I'll leave it at that. I compared to Android, but most comparisons would also hold true with iOS, sometimes in slightly different ways, but MS would still be at a disadvantage. The sum of all these complications leads me to believe that MS has no chance of replicating Android's quick progression with W10M, no matter how much MS invests or prioritizes. Even if MS could match Android's progression with W10M, they would now still be about seven years behind. If MS was magical and could somehow close that seven year gap, W10M would still not be able to rival iOS' (or WP7's) efficiency. That's off the table for architectural reasons, not just for W10M but also for Android.

    As you can see, there are a lot of downsides to a unified OS. MS is paying for it. There are also upsides however, like a consistent developer and user experience across form factors. In a nutshell: MS does a lot more work, so 3rd party developers and users can afford to do less. At least so far, that's just not payed off.
    Last edited by a5cent; 04-11-2017 at 08:38 PM. Reason: slight improvements/meaning unchanged
    tgp, libra89, TgeekB and 3 others like this.
    04-11-2017 10:00 AM
  20. tgp's Avatar
    Thank you for your well articulated answer! (Your grasp of English still amazes me!) I know that we cannot give concrete responses to "what would have been", but it is interesting to think about anyway.

    As you can see, there are a lot of downsides to a unified OS. MS is paying for it.
    I've always questioned the wisdom of Microsoft aiming for a unified OS. In some cases, there is simply no way to do justice to two different scenarios with one solution. That single solution is going to be compromised on one side or the other, or both. Some of desktop's strengths are going to be hamstrung to make it viable on mobile. At the same time mobile is going to be more complicated than it should be so the solution can fill its role on the desktop.

    But then...

    There are also upsides however, like a consistent developer and user experience across form factors.
    ...there's this. The question is: do the benefits outweigh the negatives?
    libra89, a5cent and aximtreo like this.
    04-11-2017 10:15 AM
  21. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    I've always questioned the wisdom of Microsoft aiming for a unified OS. In some cases, there is simply no way to do justice to two different scenarios with one solution. That single solution is going to be compromised on one side or the other, or both. Some of desktop's strengths are going to be hamstrung to make it viable on mobile. At the same time mobile is going to be more complicated than it should be so the solution can fill its role on the desktop.
    I don't think you know that though. It might be the case, but then again it might not. I certainly don't really see why a mobile first software "would be more complicated than it should be" on the desktop. Why would it be?

    As for converging the two I think we should remember that it wasn't long ago at all that there simply was no option to run even "modest" but feature rich software on cell phones. So even an application like Word or Excel simply didn't run on phones. And I think the issue was a combination of lack of compute power as well as storage. Now however that's not really an issue, so the proposition is completely different.

    I would guess that most people that use laptops and desktops for work are actually not using software that is so heavy a mobile CPU couldn't do it. There are obvious exceptions in science and content creation industries, but certainly for anyone from a journalist to a lawyer the bulk of the work isn't too hard on the CPU. So what remains as a difference is merely the input/output options. And that's where converging makes complete sense: Run the software off of a device that's mobile and input/output on whatever is available.

    For now it's called a smartphone running Continuum, but in the future who knows what we'll call it. It won't really matter. You buy a Windows 10 device that fits the form factor you want to have while mobile. Could be a small phone and then a 'dumb passive' laptop-dock like HP's solution, or it could be closer to tablet size, and when you're at your friend's place or at work you can connect wirelessly to your device and use their key/mouse/screen as input/output to check your mail etc; all while using your own internet/cell connection with your documents on your device for security.....

    A unified OS makes complete sense to me.
    TgeekB likes this.
    04-11-2017 04:51 PM
  22. tgp's Avatar
    I would guess that most people that use laptops and desktops for work are actually not using software that is so heavy a mobile CPU couldn't do it.
    Yes I'll agree with you there. The PC repair techs where I work make a living removing virus', doing repair installs, and removing unwanted programs for customer who use nothing more than the browser. They're using a sledgehammer to drive a thumbtack.They should be using Chromebooks.

    It's those who actually do need the power of a desktop that has me questioning Microsoft's quest for a unified OS. I don't even believe that the synergy between desktop and mobile is important to consumers. Right now, Windows desktop has 90% market share, and Android has 80%. Obviously there is a lot of overlap. But at the same time, the UI of Android (and iOS) is a lot more similar to Windows desktop than Windows phone's UI is to Windows desktop.

    I guess we'll see how Microsoft's vision plays out. Whatever happens, we'll roll with it and adapt!
    04-11-2017 09:16 PM
  23. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    Part of me wants to write a really long response. The other part of me wants to just write this and leave it at that. Alright,

    No one is quite certain what Microsoft's end goal is. All we know is that Microsoft is a business and a business survives on profits. Windows Mobile has never been profitable for Microsoft, so it isn't feasible for Microsoft to continue to invest in Windows Mobile unless they had some endgame in mind. All we can say for certain is that Microsoft is terrible at communicating. Google and Apple have never had problems connecting with their consumer audience through whatever means necessary, even if it means coming clean and admitting mistakes. Microsoft is still struggling to push forward into a modern world that requires a more mobile, open-minded company to survive at the top. The job cuts and Microsoft's valiant attempts to move into social media and creating communities like the Windows Insider program are all testimonies to this plan. I just hope that open and honest communication are at the end of those plans. We'll have to see at Build 2017 if Microsoft has learned anything from their failings and mistakes over the last few years.

    As far as Windows 10 Mobile goes, Microsoft clearly hasn't given up on it completely. Like I said before, Microsoft wouldn't continue to invest any money in a platform that will never prove profitable (however small those investments might be) unless they had an objective in mind. Microsoft has made clear and concise efforts to unify the traditionally clunky, complicated and powerful desktop software that has quickly been fading from relevance in this modern, fast-paced technology focused world with their failing, often forgotten Mobile solution in order to create what Microsoft hopes will become the "next big thing." If it'll work is not for any individual to say, and depends entirely on the steps Microsoft makes to patch relations with consumers they've burned in the past, the way they bring their product to the rest of the world, and how Microsoft handles further development.

    Obviously, I've thrown my lot in with Microsoft. Not because I "know" it'll become the "next big thing" or because I think iOS and Android are things of the past. It's because Windows 10 works for me and it works really, really well. It's always becoming better and I like the direction it's heading in. It's far from perfect, especially Windows 10 Mobile, but my Surface Pro 4 and Lumia 950 XL make a great combination that I will continue to use until it becomes clear that there is a superior alternative out there. Maybe Microsoft is making a huge mistake with a unified OS, and the costs of OneCore and UWP will eventually be Microsoft downfall. Maybe Microsoft is destined to fade into the background, only being relevant at the far end of the power user spectrum where the power of Win32 is necessary. And maybe Microsoft's past mistakes with Mobile means it's already too late. But right now Windows 10 is a fantastic operating system and I can actually recommend Windows 10 Mobile to someone like me, who doesn't need the latest and fanciest apps or a new phone released every three weeks. It's stable and fast, it has a good feature set that means I'm able to do everything I need to do and can still show off a little to my friends, and it looks great. Yes, I want RS3 to bring CShell, Continuum improvements, Night Light, custom Accent Colors, better landscape support (like the Start Screen), split-screen and more powerful multi-tasking tools (like a Close All button, etc.), more effective power options (like using Cortana, or a Restart button when you hold down the power button), an improved Action Center. I want all those things and more. There's so much I would change and add to Windows 10 Mobile if I had the opportunity. And I kind of do with the Windows Insider Program. But that's all any of us have. All we can do is submit our feedback and hope Microsoft is smart enough to realize that we still care and we will still invest if they're willing to. They've made Mobile a part of their Windows vision, but can they follow through?

    What I'm trying to say is that I like where Microsoft is right now. It is already a far better company than it was just five to ten years ago. It's come so far to be more open and friendly with people. But it's still a business, which means we have to be prepared if Microsoft's plans don't work out like we want them too. And Microsoft needs to be aware that if it doesn't play its cards perfectly, then they will lose their biggest advantages.
    mtf1380 likes this.
    04-11-2017 09:33 PM
  24. sinime's Avatar
    Joe is back!!!!

    Back from the sea, Joe Belfiore is ready to help Microsoft win

    Not sure if this is good news or not :/
    libra89 and Muessig like this.
    04-11-2017 10:51 PM
  25. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    It's those who actually do need the power of a desktop that has me questioning Microsoft's quest for a unified OS. I don't even believe that the synergy between desktop and mobile is important to consumers.
    I don't think consumers think it's important either. On the other hand, I really do think this is one of those things where you don't miss something until you've actually had it.

    I've been perpetually behind the technological (consumer) curve in pretty much every field since about the year 2000. Out of all my friends I was the last one to get rid of my Nokia candy-bar phone (I literally had to hold the antenna with my finger at exactly the right pressure to get it to work) and that was when everyone was on iPhones and Android. I did get the first dual-core Android (LG G2X I think), but I only used basic features and got on Facebook only about three years ago. Twitter? No. Instagram? What's that? ... and so on... but when it comes to work I'm on-point.

    Anyway, what I was getting to was that once I did decide to get more into a unified ecosystem I picked Microsoft because I was bored with Android, and once I got a phone that actually worked well and integrated in a way that I perceive as being close to seamlessly I knew I'd miss it if it was gone. I didn't know this when i had my Android. I had a Yahoo mail account and a third-party email client. Third party browser. DropBox. Etc.

    So I think this could be similar in the sense that people might not seek out a MS alternative because it is a unified OS and it's the latest thing, but over time people might end up in it regardless due to their employers switching them over to such systems. I think it could be enough that your employer decides that since you already have a PC laptop you're now getting a Windows phone and a 'dumb' laptop instead... which will go with terminals at work that are now far cheaper (after all, they now don't have to pay multiple times for CPUs). And they also don't have to bother with storage issues and security. You've got your Lumia XXX and it is biometrically secured and it's your gateway to your cloud-stored data.

    At that point I think users may 'get it'. Then it all of a sudden becomes less obvious to lug around a heavy laptop that's expensive when a thin cheaper one that runs off of your mobile makes much more sense. And why would I want to boot up a home entertainment system if I don't have to? I walk in the door and Continuum kicks in automatically and I just tell Cortana to start playing back ESPN or Netflix or whatever, as I place the phone on the charging mat.

    I just think it's a matter of time. And to get all of that to work the smartest thing is probably a unified OS. The heavier apps I agree won't be affected, but I think it'll be more a matter of the average consumer leaving desktops and laptops behind and people like me still using them.

    at the same time, the UI of Android (and iOS) is a lot more similar to Windows desktop than Windows phone's UI is to Windows desktop.
    Sure, I'm of the opinion though that programmers probably are smart enough to take advantage of touch features and gui when it makes sense, and leave it alone when it doesn't. If I understand correctly the idea is that coding in UWP will allow apps to scale easily between screen sizes. So I would expect there to be no problem with a consistent gui. Really the only question is regarding legacy software, but then again I'm guessing again that they can retain their desktop-centric gui and that's fine. After all, if they're heavy enough to require that horsepower then they'll be inside computers that have keyboard/mouse attached to them anyway...





    .....sorry, too much text..
    04-11-2017 11:46 PM
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