04-19-2017 08:15 AM
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  1. Drael646464's Avatar
    No they are not. But the average user uses their smartphones as if they are. They get online, check email, shop and use a few apps. The same thing they do or did on their PC. This device may be capable of much more than a smartphone is. But for the average person that won't matter. They will use it exactly like they use their current smartphone. So the idea of trying to create an artificial new category shows desperation.

    As I said the other day, I know 11 very average users who currently have a Windows Phone and every single 1 of them say they have no interest in a Mobile PC. The idea itself seems like too much for to them.

    Just market this as the evolution of a smartphone, what a smartphone should have always been able to do. A phone that can replace your tablet. Then you can actually compare it to an iPhone or Android and show how inferior they are. You just needed to disagree more than you wanted to just see the point I was making
    Hmm. Ish.

    Part of the reason people want phones so simple is the FF. Tiny fidly, squinty screens.

    Market currently prefers iOS over android in tablets because of the better software quality, for example, and windows is the fastest growing OS segment, with everything else but budget devices experiencing shrink. In phones, android is dominant. Its kind of opposite.

    I think that's at least some indication that as you change FF, peoples expectations usually change about their experience. When you move to desktop, its primarily windows.

    So yeah, kind of.

    But, you have a huge assumption written in your post.

    Who says a mobile PC, would be marketed to the "average user"? What would be the real point of any kind of mobile "me too" product? A third lookalike player?

    Surely a windows product would be primarily marketed to prosumers, and power users, such as gamers, creatives and professionals, just as their desktop OS is?

    Whether that's just browser extensions, peripheral compatibility and fully featured media players, fun deeper games or whatever. MS wants to play to its strengths, and take the emphasis on what it already does well. That is the stuff that is "more PC" than "smartphone".

    And whether that's something you find powerful, marketable or not, or you don't agree with the wording, that's not wordplay, its branding. Branding is almost entirely what created modern apple. Focusing on presenting your product as a 'value' rather than a set of features, is the steve jobs template. "PC" versus "Smartphone" or "Creators, gamers and business" as a focus are values. And that makes them marketable branding, an image.

    Honestly in the larger scheme, I'm not even sure smartphone devices are that important. Hard AI is not going to be able to run a smartphone. VR isn't going to be something you walk down the street doing. Even conversational platforms are entirely different from touch. I see a future where touch is just the sort of background platform, for a bunch of emerging areas.

    Our current phones will pretty quickly seem like the old mainframes of 30 years ago. I'm glad MS is working with long term mentalities because there is a LOT of short term competition in the tech world. Looking to be the next thing, in the most minor way, without a vision of what the big leaps are. Busy hands, without focus.
    TgeekB likes this.
    04-16-2017 10:11 AM
  2. Awhispersecho's Avatar
    Look, I completely get what you guys are saying and yes, it absolutely depends on who a device is marketed to. I'm speaking from the average consumer here and how they use their phones and PC's. Those of us discussing this here will be all over whatever this device is and will love the concept.

    The issue is, I still believe that MS absolutely needs to be in the mobile space for Windows to stay relevant the way it has been. They simply cannot afford to become enterprise and professional user only. Which means they need a mobile play and that's where I think changing the category is a mistake.

    The majority of the people in the mobile space are average users who do pretty basic things with their devices and alot of them do those things on the phone. I also know that there are still some average people out there who are wanting an upgrade path to a new Windows "Phone".

    Obviously at this point we see where MS is heading or at least where they think they are heading. I have my doubts it will end up happening at all. If it does. I don't think it will work, at least not on the scale that MS is used to things working. If they can sell in the same numbers as the Surface line does that would be a resounding success for them at this point. The problem is that as time goes on, less and less everyday consumers use PC's and eventually selling Surface like numbers won't be enough to keep Windows relevant. Users leave, developers leave and you end up with an enterprise only company which is what I have been saying for over a year now, is where they will ultimately end up being.

    It really sad. Sad for the platform, sad for those of us who were passionate about Windows Phone. And sad for the budget minded person who loved their 200 dollar Windows Phone and wanted an upgrade. Mostly It's sad to see a company completely abandon something when they could have made it a success. Remember, at 1 point that had roughly 50 million people using these devices and that number was increasing. And then short term profits became more important than the long term success of the platform and here we are.
    04-16-2017 12:59 PM
  3. TgeekB's Avatar
    You bring up a good point when you speak of the low end market. I have no idea what these proposed mobile devices will cost, especially at first. I imagine they won't be cheap. That's why I feel enterprise will be the initial market. Lets face it, inexpensive hardware loses money. Look at Apple. They have been successful at the high end. It may be several years before you see the average consumer using these devices yet the Surface line has been successful so.....I feel like I'm all over the place now. In the end I think this is the right strategy for MS, not necessarily for the average consumer.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    04-16-2017 01:36 PM
  4. andrew-in-woking's Avatar
    Have you seen the patent news? Microsoft has patented roaming profiles, which is presumed for Windows Cloud, but could of course be implemented for any version of Windows. Think about it, you log out of your PC and all your files and apps are just "there" where you left them on your smartphone.

    I think that this must be what Microsoft is working towards. If they pull it off, I think they will create a very disruptive innovation and will leapfrog many of their competitors who are currently ahead of them.
    04-16-2017 01:59 PM
  5. TgeekB's Avatar
    Have you seen the patent news? Microsoft has patented roaming profiles, which is presumed for Windows Cloud, but could of course be implemented for any version of Windows. Think about it, you log out of your PC and all your files and apps are just "there" where you left them on your smartphone.

    I think that this must be what Microsoft is working towards. If they pull it off, I think they will create a very disruptive innovation and will leapfrog many of their competitors who are currently ahead of them.
    I think this is exactly what they're working towards. That's why Windows phone won't matter any more - it will be Windows 10 whatever-device-you-pick-up. Same experience across devices.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    Drael646464 likes this.
    04-16-2017 02:07 PM
  6. fiveaces01's Avatar
    Microsoft does not make statements like you are requesting. I have been in the tech industry for almost 30 years. I have competed against Microsoft, developed products for Microsoft and I have partnered with Microsoft. I have many good friends that are senior managers, directors and Vice Presidents at Microsoft. When Microsoft decides to deemphasize an area they just let it slowly fade away. Later they may talk about it, but only after they have fully pulled the products out of the market.

    A few years ago, Windows Mobile was all the rage at Tech Ed and Build. For the last several years they have not been mentioned at Build or Ignite. Nadella since he has taken over has tried to distance himself as far as possible from Balmer's mobile strategy. Nadella's strategy has been pretty clear, he has championed ensuring Microsoft's apps and services run great on iOS and Android. To me a clue of the MS emphasizing this strategy is selling Android phones at Microsoft's stores. Anyone who does not understand the message Microsoft is sending is in total denial. Selling Android phones that get great Microsoft app software updates full demonstrates Nadella strategy. Microsoft once in awhile makes mistakes in tech execution, but they are total PR masters. If they are silent it is by plan, if they start selling competitor products in their stores and spread the word far and wide, that is by plan.
    Although I have nothing like the experience of the writer I do have a pretty good grasp of Corporate Politics and that is exactly what is happening here. You can check previous posts I have made here in regards to Nadella's plans. !st distance from Ballmer, optimize what he specializes in (CLOUD) and return MS to a company that sells Services not Products. There are certainly no manufacturing expenses with Services, at least not in a tangible sense. Apple specializes in both categories. Hello
    04-16-2017 03:59 PM
  7. gbm97's Avatar
    Why not just make it a little Windows 10 palm held computer with a phone in it?
    04-16-2017 07:08 PM
  8. Grant Taylor3's Avatar
    Have you seen the patent news? Microsoft has patented roaming profiles, which is presumed for Windows Cloud, but could of course be implemented for any version of Windows. Think about it, you log out of your PC and all your files and apps are just "there" where you left them on your smartphone.

    I think that this must be what Microsoft is working towards. If they pull it off, I think they will create a very disruptive innovation and will leapfrog many of their competitors who are currently ahead of them.

    Roaming profiles have been around since Windows NT 4. They were a pain to support with remote boot Novell Netware 3.11.
    04-16-2017 08:09 PM
  9. andrew-in-woking's Avatar
    Yes, but I don't think that there has been any implementation if this between PCs and mobile devices.
    04-16-2017 08:25 PM
  10. Grant Taylor3's Avatar
    It is very simple to understand Microsoft have baked in all the mobile bits from Windows 10 Mobile into the main OS so they no longer need a separate OS for mobile.



    Intel processors do not have the power management or cellular abilities that the ARM processors have and now with the Snapdragon 835 they have the power to emulate x86 programs.



    What I expect to see is a device that has at least 8GB of RAM that runs full Windows 10 and can be controlled via Cortana using a Bluetooth headset for telephony and the ability of HoloLens to project onto a wall or connect to a traditional monitor, keyboard and mouse.



    I expect to be able to be able to connect this device to a domain and gave seamless VPN connectivity when away from the office.



    It could be a clamshell device like the Nokia Communicator but thinner with a pair of 6" screens.

    What about a performance base like you have for the Surface Book wi dGPU and extra ports.
    Last edited by Grant Taylor3; 04-16-2017 at 08:48 PM.
    TgeekB and nate0 like this.
    04-16-2017 08:37 PM
  11. Drael646464's Avatar
    It is very simple to understand Microsoft have baked in all the mobile bits from Windows 10 Mobile into the main OS so they no longer need a separate OS for mobile.



    Intel processors do not have the power management or cellular abilities that the ARM processors have and now with the Snapdragon 835 they have the power to emulate x86 programs.



    What I expect to see is a device that has at least 8GB of RAM that runs full Windows 10 and can be controlled via Cortana using a Bluetooth headset for telephony and the ability of HoloLens to project onto a wall or connect to a traditional monitor, keyboard and mouse.



    I expect to be able to be able to connect this device to a domain and gave seamless VPN connectivity when away from the office.



    It could be a clamshell device like the Nokia Communicator but thinner with a pair of 6" screens.

    What about a performance base like you have for the Surface Book wi dGPU and extra ports.
    You can already say "hey Cortana call <contact name>", but of course she says she can't do it unless its a phone.

    I see something like you do. When skype bots are intergrated soon into Cortana (that should happen real soon), creating a conversational ecosystem under a "superapp", her powers can rapidly expand well beyond that of other voice assistants.

    For example, I can ask a skype bot for my horoscope, or very local news, or to book me an uber, rather than simply web queries and appointments.

    I can see a small, folding, credit card sized device, that is more voice operated than touch operated, and displays "info cards" via Cortana.

    Perhaps in addition to something more like your two screen clamshell (hopefully with pressure sensitivity and haptic feedback to emulate a physical keyboard).

    I think the conversational platform is not too far off, and makes a lot of sense, as a more natural way to interact with computers. This of course is exactly why MS hasn't entered into the smart watch or smart home catergories yet I imagine - they want a platform that is fully capable and useful before they bother.
    TgeekB likes this.
    04-16-2017 10:29 PM
  12. Grant Taylor3's Avatar
    I want a device that gives me full control via voice, touch and vision. I may not want to peer at a 6" screen and tap on a tiny keyboard like I am doing now.



    I want to all my apps to be aware of voice control and be able to control my music and podcasts with Bluetooth. I want to be able to use touch when I do not want to use voice I.e in public places.



    I want to be able to project wirelessly to a large screen or connect to a dock and use a mouse, keyboard and monitor.



    I want to be able to connect to my external USB drives and spin up Virtual Machines for testing and learning.



    microSD card slot for expansion on the road is a given.



    I want to be able to switch freely between Wi-Fi and 4G and I want this device to be able to be carried in my pocket.



    With the power of the Snapdragon 835 and full Windows 10 this could be nearly possible.



    I do not see a device like this replacing my i7 desktop that I use for VM's but it could replace my ageing Core 2 Quad desktop that is nearly 8 years old.



    Full Windows 10 on ARM with full Office 365 and full voice control would be fantastic.



    If I can get such a device in 2018 I will replace the old desktop and my 950 with this single device.
    Last edited by Grant Taylor3; 04-17-2017 at 08:17 AM.
    04-17-2017 07:37 AM
  13. jimh12345's Avatar
    I hear over and over that MS has given up on phones and just wants to push their apps and cloud services on Android and iPhone.

    I get that, but if that's the case why are they still dinking around with WM, teasing us with on again/off again updates, dropping many phones entirely but keeping a few on life support? Why don't they just kill WM10 dead and stop wasting their time and ours?
    04-17-2017 12:19 PM
  14. Chazzy J's Avatar

    In the meantime, WM does serve as a template for smaller screen devices....hence why they are still rolling out updates. And if it does converge, it seems like some devices will be able to come along for the ride.
    This.

    When you think about it, what they're looking to do with this ARM processing is quite the venture. You're going to have to have W10 know what size screen it's on and how to present itself to the end user. Pretend W10M didn't exist today. That would be a MASSIVE undertaking to create a fresh user interface (UI) for such a feat (aka W10 ARM).

    I'm willing to bet that when you do get to see W10 ARM a smaller mobile screen, it's going to look rather similar to W10M. How else would you get to understand UI and how the general public feels about it? What they like and what they don't? To embark on such a leapfrog event, you want to make sure you get it as close to right as possible out of the gate. If the general public doesn't use W10M, then you hit them with the next "big thing", you sure as heck want to make sure they have a good experience on it. For those of us who still use W10M, I'd be willing to bet that we all generally like the UI that has been refined over the past year+. While it's obviously different from the desktop experience and UI, you still feel as though you're using Windows 10. If W10M didn't exist...lord only knows what kind of UI they'd come out with for W10 ARM.

    As for W10M, over at changewindows.org (God Bless those guys), I've noted two different build numbers for Redstone 3 (RS3). It looks like Desktop (and others) have adopted build number 16170.xxxx and numbers are increasing from there for fast ring insiders. The details clearly show that build number is for RS3. However, when you look at the mobile, that build number is 15204.xxxx -- the details on that build show RS3 as well. Up until now, the desktop and mobile platforms have had build numbers that reflect each other.

    I interpret this as follows:

    - Redstone 3 will support W10M. Most of us are not going to be able to afford a new Mobile W10 ARM unit -- as said, it'll be pricey no doubt. But MS does still have it's diehards and there's been obvious push to support businesses with the new Elite x3. I don't think they're going to squash that this quickly - W10M is going to be around for a little while. By the time they're ready to give up support for W10M (and other phone related platforms), I'm sure W10 ARM will be a perfectly viable solution. One that will probably provide a seamless user transition for folks that use W10M and want to move to W10 ARM.

    If they can truly make RS3 successful and it brings the promises of seamless transition between devices, 2017 and 2018 are going to be pretty awesome for MS.

    Just my two cents...
    TgeekB and SeeVuPlay like this.
    04-17-2017 01:01 PM
  15. macros_1's Avatar
    ...Microsoft once in awhile makes mistakes in tech execution, but they are total PR masters...
    This has to be the most funny thing I have read all week. Really appreciate the laugh. Microsoft has historically been a very poor company in both PR and Marketing.

    PR Masters....wow, I'll have what you're drinking.
    04-18-2017 09:03 AM
  16. BrunoMG's Avatar
    If MS are PR masters, what can we call Apple?
    PR Gods?
    04-18-2017 11:33 AM
  17. Drael646464's Avatar
    If MS are PR masters, what can we call Apple?
    PR Gods?
    Or Samsung? They can have a year of most of their stuff blowing up, and people still think their products represent greater quality.
    04-18-2017 08:52 PM
  18. sd4f's Avatar
    The issue is, I still believe that MS absolutely needs to be in the mobile space for Windows to stay relevant the way it has been. They simply cannot afford to become enterprise and professional user only. Which means they need a mobile play and that's where I think changing the category is a mistake.
    That's definitely the case, I'm pretty sure even MS can see it. Windows is being attacked from the peripheries and essentially has been contained to the PC. I presume this is why google made a big deal of not supporting WP. It's clear google has ambitions beyond the phone, and have targeted education with chrome books. This is a big deal and Dan touched on it in the last podcast with his (iirc) nephew. Once they get brought up in that ecosystem, it's what they know and what they will largely continue to use.

    This is where windows dominance from enterprise was such a big deal. People were learning how to use windows computers from work, and no doubt, that's what they were buying for their own computers.

    Smartphones are different, since user adoption didn't come from enterprise, it clearly became dominant purely from the consumer space, and I think in many respects, that has decided where enterprise went. In other words, enterprise went down the consumer path because of its sheer dominance. The downfall of blackberry is a great demonstration of that.

    In those instances, MS has mostly been boxed in and left out of major growth areas. It appears that MS recognise this, and are doing things to correct it.
    Awhispersecho likes this.
    04-18-2017 11:00 PM
  19. evelynpepper's Avatar
    The one thing I love the most about about windows phones especially when compared to android phones is that the windows doesnt lag at all!
    04-19-2017 04:12 AM
  20. BrunoMG's Avatar
    True.

    But Android is now VERY different.
    Ice Cream Sandwich/Kit Kat and Lollipop memory leaks are a thing of the past.

    Nowadays, android rivals with iOS in speed and fluidness
    04-19-2017 04:30 AM
  21. Drael646464's Avatar
    Once they get brought up in that ecosystem, it's what they know and what they will largely continue to use.
    Good luck getting by on the chromestore in enterprise or university :P
    04-19-2017 06:34 AM
  22. sd4f's Avatar
    Good luck getting by on the chromestore in enterprise or university :P
    But this is the thing, they're kids going to school now. Who knows what google has in store for 10 years in the future when they'll be going to universities.

    Other thing is, they don't have to go straight for the jugular, again, they can go for the peripheries. For the large number of degrees where all you'll ever need is a word processor, chromebook can be sufficient.
    04-19-2017 08:06 AM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    But this is the thing, they're kids going to school now. Who knows what google has in store for 10 years in the future when they'll be going to universities.

    Other thing is, they don't have to go straight for the jugular, again, they can go for the peripheries. For the large number of degrees where all you'll ever need is a word processor, chromebook can be sufficient.
    Well thank god MS is going after chromeOS with a passion, with windows cloud, and windows on ARM. I'll be rather pleased if we are spared a future where everything is ChromeOS!

    You'd be surprised at the number of degrees where that isn't the case. Psychology for example make a bit of use of windows programs. Anything with even a touch of science. I imagine business and economics, engineering all have similar elements. I suppose if you are doing an English degree, you'll be fine. And yes, who knows what creepy uncle google has planned :P
    04-19-2017 08:15 AM
48 12

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